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Old July 9, 2012, 11:44 PM   #51
Mik3e
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All I know for sure is that I'm not going to be hugging any cops, on or off duty.
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Old July 9, 2012, 11:55 PM   #52
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ya, know... the more I thought about it, it actually makes a bit of sense. One of the articles says he was dancing when one of the two women went to hug him... If she was doing one of those "drop it" or "dip it" moves that are popular in some hip-hop/rap music then she'd be at the right level to catch a lead ball in the chest...
How the gun actually went off depends on how they were "hugging" or as stated by someone else on her horse playing...
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Old July 10, 2012, 12:05 AM   #53
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Ok, a couple points from me that I didn't see yet...

First off, my daily carry is a Rossi 357, in a Remora holster. It's basically a triangular(ish) pouch with sticky rubberized material on the outside, I just toss it in a pocket or my waistband and go. When I first got it, I checked for the ability to interact with the trigger while holstered. The Rossi is a DA/SA revolver, obviously carried DA, and with a heavy trigger pull, so I checked it in SA mode (empty) just to satisfy curiosity. I *could* set it off, but only with some SERIOUS force, and at the right angle, and from the right spot. Repeated my testing with a XDm, and I damn near tore the holster trying to set it off. No way in hell it could happen without shredding it, and even then, with the GLock/XD/M&P trigger, would still probably require a thoughtful pull through the demolished Remora. I don't know about other "pouch" style holsters, but it couldn't happen in mine...

Second, the mothers comments about why he needed a gun in his house. In a holster at my waist is one of the safest places for my pistol, in my house! I have kids, and while technically I trust the 2 older ones with guns, I don't test that theory. On me, I know it's not with them.

Also, that had to have been one helluva "hug", I am curious for more details... Which will probably never be released.
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Old July 10, 2012, 12:11 AM   #54
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I can't see how hugging someone can make a weapon discharge. I mean - if a weapon were that sensiive to pressure like that, wouldn't it also go off if you got into a car?
Maybe he was carrying a Type 94 Nambu.
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Old July 10, 2012, 12:24 AM   #55
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Ok so I read this thread earlier today and out of sheer curiosity I called a friend who has a S&W MP40. He came over with it and we made sure the gun was unloaded and clear (magazine empty, nothing chambered, racked the slide and reinserted the mag).

I then put the gun in a neoprene IWB holster (the cheapest I could find) which was an Uncle Mike's IWB holster. For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about its essentially a thin neoprene bag with a belt clip. I then tucked the gun into my waistband at 3 oclock and covered it with my shirt.

After drawing the gun and checking again to make sure it was not loaded I asked my wife to dance behind me, grind against me and engage in other activities (as one might imagine the victim was doing at the party). The idea was to see how the gun might have gone off.

After 10 minutes of dancing, grinding and "hugging" the gun hadn't been handled in a manner that would have caused it to go off. When worn properly the trigger is inside the holster and also covered by the belt. Only the pistol grip is accessible for drawing and this makes it very difficult to get your finger into the trigger guard and pull the trigger. As for the angle of the shot I asked my wife to "dip" and as she did so I looked at her chest... anyway after I was able to re-focus on what I was doing I noticed that the muzzle of the pistol would have been pointed at her chest.

So after this test my conclusion is that it IS possible for the victim to have been shot in the chest in the scenario but I cannot determine how the gun would have been discharged unless it was somehow drawn enough from the holster in order to allow someone to put their finger in the trigger and squeeze it. Oh and by the way along that line I asked my wife to try and squeeze the trigger while dipping like that. She was able to do so however with the safe action trigger and the angle at which she had to twist her hand to get her finger into the trigger guard (and even her thumb) it wouldn't have bee something the victim would be doing unless she were reaching for his other gun and had really bad aim!

In any case things don't add up in this story. I can only hope more information will come up so we can finally make some sense of it.

EDIT: Ok so my wife came to another conclusion - what if the victim were "dipping" and reaching up UNDER the officer's shirt as in a caress or grope beneath his shirt? If the gun had somehow become dislodged or partly drawn from his holster during dancing or other physical activity and the victim had reached her hands under his shirt to grope him or whatever it IS possible her thumb might have gotten caught in the trigger guard and against the trigger of the gun. Its still very difficult to cause the gun to go off considering the "safe action trigger" of the gun however at least that is a fairly plausible assumption.

We tried this to see if it were possible and while my wife couldn't get the gun to go discharge while doing what she had theorized perhaps someone with a stronger thumb might have managed it?
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Old July 10, 2012, 03:42 AM   #56
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Hansam is onto something. Lets say shes even in the area of the waistband and works the gun out unintentionally. Bumps the trigger with her finger. Bam. Or very unlikely the (i guess it would be the sear.) breaks and lets the striker fall in a accident. Extremely unlikely but not impossible. Wish there were more details.
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Old July 10, 2012, 06:10 AM   #57
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All speculation but... Whilst doing a dance like move, bend over and stick your booty out while someone behind you on their knees or also bent over but maybe not as tall as you and is getting jiggy with ya, their hands manipulating your belt/waist region with their chest against your booty. Where is your holstered handguns muzzle now pointing? Not down, but to the rear.

Also speculation, but at a party perhaps booze is being consumed and you're "lost in the moment" and having a good time as it were. Not thinking real clear (it happens to the best of us) especially if manipulation/fondling is going on.

It may be that the victims hands or the, uh, dancing jostled handgun upward loosening it from holster and a thumb or finger on the victims right hand (assuming 3:00-4:00 carry) inadvertantly found it's way inside the triggerguard during said "manipulation". Boom.

What can I learn from this speculation? Weapon retention. It's not just an on the street issue, but a 24/7 clear headed necessity. Good holster mandatory. Don't be getting jiggy or too "Parh tey" minded when armed. Don't let anyone near that weapon. It is deadly dangerous and only takes a second for things to get terminally agly.

But as I said, all speculation on my part. One of those "what if" moments I tend to ponder every now and then... tho honestly, I would never foresee or "what if" this type of incident occuring... because I don't do parties, I suck at dancing and don't like people touching me if I can avoid it, especially when armed.
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Old July 10, 2012, 08:48 AM   #58
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The local news here in West Palm Beach , channel 29, reported the weapon as a S&W M&P 40.
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Old July 10, 2012, 09:04 AM   #59
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You guys sure are debunking the "simple hug" explanation.

I wonder where those words came from?

Seems like Detroit needs a new law prohibiting armed dancing.....
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Old July 10, 2012, 09:16 AM   #60
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Just a thought

What if he was carrying the weapon in a inverted 6 o'clock hold? Never met anyone that carries like that but I'm sure it's done.

That would leave the muzzle pointed up and behind him as she hugged him from the back.

Perhaps she hugged and said "hey what's this? There is not suppose to be a bulge back here." he goes to retain the pistol and blammo!

Quote:
Seems like Detroit needs a new law prohibiting armed dancing.....
...or hugs
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Old July 10, 2012, 09:50 AM   #61
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It's an outside possibility, but what about suicide? There was another case, just a couple or three days ago, in which a uniformed patrol officer -- on duty -- picked up a young woman who was walking toward the hospital and (with department clearance) was giving her a ride. She grabbed his duty weapon and shot herself.

To me, that's the most logical explanation for how a weapon carried with the muzzle pointing at the ground could shoot an adult in the chest.
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Old July 10, 2012, 05:06 PM   #62
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Maybe he was carrying a Type 94 Nambu.
Indeed!!! That is one gun you would NOT want to hug. Very good!!!!!!

Exposed trigger bar/sear was not a good design element.

Quote:
You guys sure are debunking the "simple hug" explanation.
Yes, because only in the OP was the hug described as being simple. All of the accounts have multiple activities going on at the time. It was not discharged from a simple hug.

Quote:
It's an outside possibility, but what about suicide? There was another case, just a couple or three days ago, in which a uniformed patrol officer -- on duty -- picked up a young woman who was walking toward the hospital and (with department clearance) was giving her a ride. She grabbed his duty weapon and shot herself.

To me, that's the most logical explanation for how a weapon carried with the muzzle pointing at the ground could shoot an adult in the chest.
So the day before turning 25, the young lady meets the cops for the first time at the party and decides to kill herself with his gun that she is going to have to manipulate off him in some manner as to getting it to fire into her chest while still holstered? Unlike your example where the lady in question had a significant history of mental problems, this doesn't appear to be the case here. There are no reports of mental health issues or being suicidal
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1108476

Also at the time of the shooting, Miller was on her knees according to partygoers. That would at least account for the downward pointing IWB holster holding a gun that discharged into her chest...if she was below the holster.
http://www.freep.com/article/2012071...xt%7CFRONTPAGE

And apparently Detroit is being untimely reactive in issuing order to check carry methods and retrain...
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/579/1...tal-shootings/
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Old July 10, 2012, 05:11 PM   #63
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Yes, because only in the OP was the hug described as being simple. All of the accounts have multiple activities going on at the time. It was not discharged from a simple hug.
with all due respect double naught spy, there has been a Tremendous amount of speculation on this thread (as pointed out by you in your last post directly above). It is possible this death occurred via an average (give or take) hug. Anyways, that's where I am putting my money so it will be interesting to see when & if a follow-up story is posted on this thread.
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Old July 10, 2012, 07:37 PM   #64
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Freak accidents do happen and IMO this is very a freaky incident which we will most likely never know the true story.
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Old July 10, 2012, 07:43 PM   #65
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The only thing for certain here is that the story seems to change about every fifteen minutes.

From a link provided by Double Naught Spy:

Quote:
McNair said she was told by witnesses at the hospital that her daughter and Parrish were side by side and she got a birthday hug from Parrish when the gun went off. Miller, who would have been 25 on Monday, was celebrating her birthday over the weekend and went to the party with two friends, relatives said. The Free Press has been unable to reach her friends for comment.
The other reports indicated that the girl hugged Officer Parrish -- from behind.

There are also the conflicting statements as to whom Officer Parrish was dancing with. Some reports say HE was dancing with his wife ... other reports say the young woman was dancing with him.

I don't think anybody will ever figure out exactly what happened in this incident. I do NOT, however, agree with Bubba15301. The reports all seem to be consistent that the officer never touched his weapon. Assuming that's correct, there is nothing that he did that would be in need of being covered up.
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Old July 10, 2012, 08:29 PM   #66
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Speculation.
Serpa holster. From behind, push the gun butt down and forward, hard.
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Old July 10, 2012, 08:46 PM   #67
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The dance is different and its local, not federal, but the words and music are the same:

"There's a whole lot of coverup going on, da, da, da."

Another tragedy, another batch of media nonsense, another bunch of official lies. So what else is new?

Jim
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Old July 10, 2012, 08:57 PM   #68
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It bugs me that reporters are so ignorant of firearms, they don't educate themselves and they just continue reporting any idiotic drivel that anyone says.

Instead of reporting it as "Officer claims hug triggers gun, kills woman." they report: "Hug Triggers Officer's Gun, Kills Woman"

If someone was burned to death and the person involved claimed it was just spontaneous human combustion would ABC just report it that way?

"Burn victim spontaneously combusts"

If someone was stabbed to death and the person involved claimed knives just flew out of the drawer, would they report it that way?

I can't see how reporters can just accept being ignorant and continue writing stuff that is ludicrous.
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Old July 10, 2012, 09:13 PM   #69
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I suspect the girl DISLODGED the gun from the holster and as it fell she, or the cop, tried to catch it and it fired.

I've heard of several cases where dropped guns, when the user tried to catch it, fired, and several shot that way.

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Old July 10, 2012, 10:25 PM   #70
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Instead of reporting it as "Officer claims hug triggers gun, kills woman." they report: "Hug Triggers Officer's Gun, Kills Woman"
Now how long will it be before some anti-gun politician, the Brady Bunch, or some other Nanny State do-gooders call for the outlawing of firearms without external manual safeties because the design imposes a threat to the public! Just like they did with 3-wheel ATC's and lawn darts!!!
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Old July 10, 2012, 10:28 PM   #71
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cheapshooter, already happening by regular joe schmos...just read some comments after the news stories. people can't believe and are in shock that this guy had a weapon off duty and/or at a party
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Old July 10, 2012, 11:05 PM   #72
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cheapshooter, already happening by regular joe schmos...just read some comments after the news stories. people can't believe and are in shock that this guy had a weapon off duty and/or at a party
Yes, and now the Brady Bunch have another villainous target. Handguns without an external safety. They'll use it to the fullest extent. Just like "Saturday Night special" and "Assault Weapon"!
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Old July 11, 2012, 02:18 AM   #73
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with all due respect double naught spy, there has been a Tremendous amount of speculation on this thread (as pointed out by you in your last post directly above). It is possible this death occurred via an average (give or take) hug. Anyways, that's where I am putting my money so it will be interesting to see when & if a follow-up story is posted on this thread.
While there may be speculation here, I haven't seen any statements from the police or from actual witnesses that it was just a simple or average hug. They have all indicated multiple activities going on at the time of the stated hug. So while folks might speculate that the hug was simple or average hug, that would be speculation not based on the information reported.

AB noted the comment by Miller's mother ...
Quote:
McNair said she was told by witnesses at the hospital that her daughter and Parrish were side by side and she got a birthday hug from Parrish when the gun went off. Miller, who would have been 25 on Monday, was celebrating her birthday over the weekend and went to the party with two friends, relatives said. The Free Press has been unable to reach her friends for comment.
This version is interesting as it contradicts what has been indicated previously by the cops' statements and from the few witnesses various news souces of have cited. As Miller was apparently unknown by the officer and apparently arrived with friends to the party, I wonder just what witnesses from the party would go to the hospital. So far, the only people indicated to have known Miller prior to the party are those with whom she came. So the likely witnesses Miller's mother is talking about are probably Miller's friends. If that is the case, you have wonder why they are complaining to the media about the accuracy of what the police are saying.

Even more interesting is that Miller's mother did not originally report what she later said was told to her by witnesses at the hospital.

Quote:
It bugs me that reporters are so ignorant of firearms, they don't educate themselves and they just continue reporting any idiotic drivel that anyone says.
Okay, what has been said about the gun that you consider ludacris? The supporting examples you game are situational issues, not technology. That the reporters are not firearms experts should not be a surprise and really should not bother you too much. By and large, reporters usually are not experts about all the parameters in the stories they report.

When US Airways flight 1549 ditched into the Hudson River, I don't think a single reporter reporting the story was an expert in passenger air flight, Airbus 320s, ditching, air crash investigation, the Hudson River, or geese.
So if reporters should not report that which is being told to them about situations for which they were not present, then what is it that they should be reporting?

Speaking of which, did you find the IWB holster designed to carry guns with the muzzle pointed back and up that you mentioned? I can't find any.

Quote:
Instead of reporting it as "Officer claims hug triggers gun, kills woman." they report: "Hug Triggers Officer's Gun, Kills Woman"
Well, that is what they were told at one point. Are you suggesting that they should alter the information they were given?

I understand that you think the article title is ludacris, but whether the reporters were experts on firearms would change nothing about the title as the title and your suggested alternate title have nothing specifically wrong in terms of firearms information.
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Old July 11, 2012, 07:12 AM   #74
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The mother wants to punish someone

I feel horrible for her family, and the officers too. But the mother just seems to be out for blood, (not that I blame her.) I guarantee that the officer did not conceal his weapon with that intent that someone else inadvertently discharge it and regardless of how this turns out, he will have to live with what happened.

One of the reports stated that his hand was not on the weapon when it discharged and the police chief stopped short of saying that she triggered the weapon that killed her but there seems to be a general consensus that there was a hug involved and some exciting dancing.

Now the part that tells me the mother wants the officer hung out to dry is that in an earlier report (if I recall correctly) she claimed that her daughter was facing the officer during the hug. Then when they determined that the daughter was indeed in a lower position behind him, she claims that the daughter was side by side with him. The mother also claimed that if the daughter had been doing the new "freak dance" (which the mother said couldn't have been the case) that she would have been shot in the head.

So the mother has changed the position that her daughter was in to argue in her favor every time but when a viable story comes out, she refuses to accept it. I cant say that I would be much happier with the outcome but I hope that she doesn't continue to call blame to the officer.

Again, I feel horrible for both families and hope that they can move past this with as little animosity as possible.
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Old July 11, 2012, 12:11 PM   #75
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I give more credit to the mother than the reporter because the mom at least called BS on the "hug from behind, gun went off" claim:

Quote:
“That’s just not plausible,” said Yolanda McNair, Miller’s mother.
I also noticed that the social gathering is now being characterized as a "fish fry"
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