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View Poll Results: Should WA State Control their wolf population
Yes, this is an invasive and destructive subspecies. 37 66.07%
No, let nature take it's course. 19 33.93%
Voters: 56. You may not vote on this poll

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Old July 12, 2012, 10:08 AM   #51
Youngshooter
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Before I get into more than I bargained for I'll start with a disclaimer that I am absolutely no expert on the issue, but have done a bit of experimentation on an issue much similar to this one. My modeled simulator I used first in a Wildlife ecology lab which was dumbed down for the "non-interested" to understand, using only the variables of: growing season of natural vegetation, wolves, and moose. Long story short, I got my hands on a more complex model from a bit of sweet talking, in which I included: wolves, natural vegetation, open grazing used by farmers, natural wildlife, and farm raised open grazing animals. A mere sample of what is seen in the subject of the thread. What I found through many run throughs including various subject sizes and growing season lengths was an eventual widespread wolf population growth at the cost of resources that are much more valuable to the people investing in them. As stated before, I am NO expert on the issue, but wildlife ecologists are using models similar to the one I used(obviously much more complex) but along comparable scenarios and variables. As someone who deals with property damage along with occasional animal harm from hogs, I know how this can several damage a farmer or ranchers way of life, and with wolves, their safety. I question the idea of reintroduction, but I'm just a kid using some tools.
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Old July 12, 2012, 10:42 AM   #52
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There are some shocking statistics in this thread. I wonder how many of them are accurate. I tend to think the ones I agree with are and the ones I don't are not:-) We don't have this problem in iowa although I would guess its on the way from wisconsin down the Mississippi if they are not here already.

We do have a duty to hug trees and protect animals but we need to do it in a balanced and economical way. I hear about dogs getting snatched from porches and the WI DNR cutting checks to replace them. Not really how I want my out of state WI hunting license money being spent...

I like wolves but I like people (most of the time) pets and steak more.
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Old July 12, 2012, 10:54 AM   #53
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I wholeheartedly agree, Jason. What I'll say next hurts my moral values in regards to the issue, but I did it anyways and gained a bit of perspective from the "tree hugger's" point of view. I was taking my regular Wildlife Ecology class, which I loved and learned a ton, but my professor was a former PETA member/whale wars kinda lady(to give you an idea). Anyhow, we were given an extra credit assignment to go to a website lobbying to prohibit depredation hunts in these northern states that struggle with the wolf issues. Moral tugs deluxe. Well I did it for the grade, and have read the emails they send out just to be fair, and it's exactly what I expected. A one sided, close minded approach on the other side.
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Old July 12, 2012, 11:06 AM   #54
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Whale wars I kind of agree with but its not in my back yard and does not effect my economy. PETA has caused much more animal suffering then it will ever hope to prevent. The anti fur movement destroyed the fur market and caused an explosion of fur bearers which causes disease, starvation, and a generally less healthy population aka animal suffering. I disdain animal abuse and cruelty but there is nothing ethical about what peta does IMHO.
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Old July 12, 2012, 11:36 AM   #55
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It is rather unfortunate that groups that are as hypocritical as PETA still have the power to lobby on such a large scale when everyone knows their constantly recurring actions that no person who respects animals would do. What a world we live in, and mindless people we legally have to coexist with.
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Old July 12, 2012, 04:47 PM   #56
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I once read that psychologists define rational thinking as being able to argue both sides of an issue then change sides if the side you support loses that debate. It was also commented that most persons don't learn to do that until they are about 28 years old (no offense to Youngshooter, who may be one of the exceptions). It explains why activists are disproportionately younger than 28.

Rational thinking seldom happens in large organizations put together around one side of an issue. Pretty much by definition, the organization can't change sides without undoing itself. The organization comes to be its own cause, and there come to be too many jobs and too much money and too much political capital and other vested interest for it not to resist change for its own survival.

I have to say, reading all the conflicting stats and information on this topic, that it seems like it ought to be a good subject for 60 Minutes or some other investigative reporting. Did government do the right thing or did it try to fool mother nature? Are either or both sides engaging in hyperbole or dismissing valid data out of hand? Seems like one possible answer could be "all of the above", depending on where you are.
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Old July 12, 2012, 04:57 PM   #57
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Excellent commentary, Nick.

Unfortunately, in regards to "both sides engaging in hyperbole or dismissing valid data out of hand", I dare say there are few on any side of any issue who do not.
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Old July 12, 2012, 05:19 PM   #58
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Quote:
Tahunua001,

Not to change the subject, but when you say "disappearing" do you mean completely? Like, no trace ever seen again? No carcasses or bones? I ask just because I saw a news story that cattle rustling had been making a big comeback, particularly in the southern states, and wondered if it had maybe worked its way up into your neck of the woods.
there have been no reported cases of rustling out in these parts for some time. for the most part the carcases are being discovered but some just up at disappeared. it's difficult to find cattle in mountainous terrain when your search radius is several hundred acres.

I would not be against the reintroduction of the rocky mountain gray wolf(moot now, since they are now officially extinct) and I wouldn't even be opposed to the introduction of a species that closely resembles them(IE, lives in the same environment, same mortality rate, same size, same temperament etc etc) but that is not what happened. they replaced a relatively small, lone hunter, generally scavenger but willing to take down sickly animals, with the largest of the pack hunting wolves in north america that has adapted to harsher conditions so the mortality rate for pups is almost nonexistent and is not afraid to take on a bull bison, no less a herd of cows. they would have been better off to attempt the implantation of a red wolf or prairie wolf than these beasts.
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Old July 12, 2012, 05:41 PM   #59
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It's only after experiencing the "Feds" manage anything that perhaps I come off as more than skeptical. I actually prefer elk hunting to wolf hunting, but if that's all that's left, what else will these states have to offer? I tend to buy in on anecdotal evidence from the locals, such as tailgate shots of trophy wolves, before some politically, grammatically correct contractor BS mission statements. How do you cook a wolf?
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Old July 12, 2012, 06:04 PM   #60
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How do you cook a wolf?
quite simple.
1. kill wolf
2. remove hide
3. leave rest of wolf and take hide to F&G for quality testing and stamp of approval
4. take home and marinate in tanning spices and cook on low
5. serve on cold nights in front of the stove
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Old July 12, 2012, 08:42 PM   #61
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Hey, maybe WA state can see wolves up close and in person like in the following video from Russia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_pdTLZOOvM

There is another town in Russia allegedly invaded by over 400 wolves killing their livestock.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...n-village.html

With the history of wolves, it is clear, if you don't control them, they will control you.
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Old July 12, 2012, 10:17 PM   #62
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Alaska444 has raised a point which folks are avoiding. Look at rickyrick's thread about PETA and hogs. That's the sort of political problem which the state may not have the political will to deal with.

Local-area people--and even city folks--can be convinced of hog-damage problems, but hogs are not all furry and romantic. A plan can look good on paper, but any governmental plan is subject to changes from purely emotional reasons.
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Old July 12, 2012, 11:14 PM   #63
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Today, 08:17 PM #62
Art Eatman
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Alaska444 has raised a point which folks are avoiding. Look at rickyrick's thread about PETA and hogs. That's the sort of political problem which the state may not have the political will to deal with.

Local-area people--and even city folks--can be convinced of hog-damage problems, but hogs are not all furry and romantic. A plan can look good on paper, but any governmental plan is subject to changes from purely emotional reasons.
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+1 Art, I seriously doubt that WA, OR and CA will muster the political will to control wolf populations until it is a serious public health threat from wolf behavior and from spread of disease. Wolves have been found in all three of these states to date. They increase by 20% a year, so it won' take long to have significant population burdens in these states.

You are right, folks are looking at this thread as a pro or anti-wolf thread, but it is not that at all. The data on wolves is clear, they harbor serious diseases easily spread to humans and all game animals (100% of moose in some areas are infected) and they will kill until all of the game is gone. The question is whether the propaganda driven political gamesmanship in these states will subject their populations to serious risk. These states will surely have to answer this question in the next 5-10 years. How will they respond? Art is correct, that is the question.
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Old July 12, 2012, 11:29 PM   #64
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Should WA State Control Their New Wolf Population
They better or in the future they'll be very sorry that they didn't.
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Old July 16, 2012, 08:53 PM   #65
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The latest:

http://www.king5.com/news/environmen...162636576.html

"The Wedge Pack becomes the eighth confirmed pack in the state. If that number grows to 15, and adult pairs continue to mate in three designated areas of the state, the wolf will be removed the Washington State Endangered Species List. That would allow ranchers and others greater freedom to protect their property from wolves."
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Old July 16, 2012, 09:24 PM   #66
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I guess everyone will become a rancher! I don't see a wolf hunt in WA's future.

Great update Art.
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Old July 17, 2012, 10:20 AM   #67
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Back around fifteen years ago, some west Texas ranchers from around Van Horn were fulminating about the reintroduction of the Mexican wolf. Predation on cattle, natch. Now, they ranch in an area where it's around sixty to eighty acres per cow.

I suggested they quit the cow bidness and go into tourism, attracting the Sierra Clubbers who want to hear wolf howls. Take a tape recorder to wolf country and record a bunch of howling. Then charge Sierra Clubbers some $50 or $100 per night to camp out and listen to the howling. (They'd bring their own firewood; it's a desert, you know.)

The rancher could just sit off a quarter- or half-mile, playing the tape deck while counting his money. Much easier than nurse-maiding a bunch of moo-critters.
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Old July 29, 2012, 05:01 PM   #68
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Here in Washington we manage game by ballot box, so you can count on us not using science to manage wolves.
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Old July 29, 2012, 05:50 PM   #69
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Here in Washington we manage game by ballot box, so you can count on us not using science to manage wolves
Didn't they use that approach to ban leghold traps?
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Old July 29, 2012, 07:43 PM   #70
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Ehhh, all of us are drifting away from focussed discussion. Enuf fer now.
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