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Old July 8, 2012, 01:39 PM   #26
teeroux
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The store agrees and a security person began walking her to the car, and these same three men are at the front of the store, watching every move.

It just happens that a local police officer is at the front door in a black and white and our daughter walks up to him and tells him what is going on and the policeman gets out and walks her to her car and waits until she has it started and the doors locked.
Why didn't the cop rattle those guys cages? At least question and I.D. them.

Good for her being alert its the most important part of self defense.
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Old July 8, 2012, 02:10 PM   #27
geetarman
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Why didn't the cop rattle those guys cages? At least question and I.D. them.
Good question. I do not know the answer. Perhaps the young men took off while she was talking to the officer. I don't know how legal it would be to question the three if they had not said anything to my daughter.

I do not recall my daughter saying anything other than she saw them at the front of the store about the same time she saw the black and white.

I don't know if she saw them again after she started talking to the officer.

It is kind of weird that all these "what ifs" come up after the event is over.

I suspect you go into mental overdrive and you cannot think of all the possible things you could or should have said or done.

I am glad she is ok and she is able to make enough changes so it does not occur again.

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Old July 8, 2012, 02:33 PM   #28
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She did very well, she kept her wits and made a couple of very very good choices in the attempt to re-route then made contact with cashier and LE outside.

It may a different policy at different wal-marts I witnessed a manager at a local wal-mart several years ago, ask a female Missouri State Highway Patrol officer, IN UNIFORM to please leave because they had a no weapons policy. Talk about stupid, they should have offered free coffee just for walking into the store in uniform.

As for your daughter, a non leathal option might be nice, OC or ASP if handy with one an ASP is a wicked weapon. Doubtful any judge in AZ would fault a woman for defending herself agains 3 "men". But in todays world you never know, appears her best weapon is one she is quite good with, her brain.
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Old July 8, 2012, 02:33 PM   #29
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I think she should have made a big scene when she was blocked the first time. Say in a very loud voice "why are you harassing me?" Call attention to this criminal behavior.

Kathy Jackson writes very well about this problem we all have about not wanting to call attention to ourselves:
http://www.corneredcat.com/Dying_of_Embarrassment/

And I too can't believe the cops didn't check out the hoods. Maybe they didn't want to be embarrassed.
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Old July 8, 2012, 04:08 PM   #30
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It sounds like she handled things as close to perfectly as she could have, with the possible exception of raising her voice to draw attention. I say 'possible', because that sort of thing may have triggered an immediate "escalate and go" from the 3 guys.

Purse carry... no. I think she would probably find some variation of IWB carry to be far more comfortable than she realizes. Check out YouTube videos from faliaphotography or limalife. Both ladies, with lots of great advice for female CCW. Lima is TINY, too. If she can pull it off, anyone can.



I'm glad that the situation turned out the way that it did.
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Old July 9, 2012, 02:28 PM   #31
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The fact that at the time there was a marked police car in front of the store makes me doubt that they were trying to carjack or attack her. Maybe they were just looking at a nice girl.
And she should carry.
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Old July 9, 2012, 02:44 PM   #32
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Your daughter sounds like a smart lady and has the presence to be aware of her surrounding and who is around her. The only thing that concerns me is that he wasn't carrying because she didn't feel a need. She should carry everyday as a routine no matter if she feels a need or not. The gun at home does you no good when you are not at home. She could have been beaten, robbed, raped or killed. Please convince her to carry all the time, it could be the best thing she ever does.
Personally I carry every time I leave the house, even if just for a short trip to the store. Times are tough, jobs are few, money is tight and people are getting desperate, even other wise good people just trying to feed their families and keep their homes. Carrying doesn't mean you will have to kill someone, but atleast be prepared to defend your self, your family and your home.
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Old July 9, 2012, 04:04 PM   #33
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Since she didn't have a gun with her, there's no point is what-if'ing that part. Same with choosing that location. Those decisions were already in play, so let's go to the actual incident:

I don't know that she could have done any better. She is a case-study in what to do right in that situation. She didn't go into denial mode and she took action.

She was not victimized and learned from the process. Good on her.
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Old July 9, 2012, 04:20 PM   #34
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Old cop here. Whenever you have two+ antagonists who are wolf-circling you and blocking routes of escape, and you are carrying a weapon, you had better be getting your hand on that weapon
Clint Smith calls that "the hole" with emphasis on getting out of there--now. You might not be able to access your weapon when you're in "the hole"-- depending how far down it you are.
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Old July 9, 2012, 04:25 PM   #35
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The fact that at the time there was a marked police car in front of the store makes me doubt that they were trying to carjack or attack her. Maybe they were just looking at a nice girl
Right, maybe it was a welcoming complimentary getsture for multiple males to surround a new comer to the neighborhood and block her exit, then be waiting for her outside.

Last edited by Nnobby45; July 10, 2012 at 05:42 AM.
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Old July 9, 2012, 04:39 PM   #36
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First, we don't really know whether the cop acted on her complaint and questioned the bad guys or not. It would have occurred after she left. Maybe the cop questioned them, maybe not.

But second, no crime occurred. So its tough to suggest that the cop should have done anything when all the cop had was a basic description of three creeps and an account that suggested something MIGHT have gone down otherwise.

But nothing the cop could really pin on them.

Bottom line: she should carry where its legal to do so.

There is no good reason not to.

There are plenty of reasons out in the world why she should.
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Old July 9, 2012, 04:42 PM   #37
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I've met some dumb criminals, and there are even dumber ones out there - after all there was that one who walked by a parked police car, stepped around the uniformed cop waiting in line and tried to rob the store. But 3 people robing somebody with the po-po there is highly unlikely.
We've had recently some snatch-and-grab robberies in our area - 2 BGs would approach the victim from behind and snatch her golden chain and then run away. Maybe that was the case.
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Old July 10, 2012, 08:27 AM   #38
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Don't know if it's been stated; Wal-Marts policy on carrying guns into the store, at least in Pennsylvania, is that they comply with the state laws.

That has been made known through various phone calls to the corporation. They will not send it in text form though, as to keep it an open ended thing they can change at any moment.

Here's a link to an encounter a forum member had with Wal-Mart:
"Confronted at Walmart by security and asst manager"

*Read post on Page 4- Post #36 by Delerius.

Here's another link to another encounter at Wal-Mart:
"Kicked out of Wal*Mart Parkesburg (Chester County) for Open Carry"
*Read post on Page 4- Post #35 by iMoses14
*Read post on Page 6- Post #51 by iMoses14
*Read post on Page 7- Post #67 by iMoses14
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Old July 10, 2012, 09:39 AM   #39
Botswana
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Just in response to a previous comment about whether or not she knew the guys were up to no good.

It is a fact that most violent crime happens in "like circumstances". Men are more likely to attack other men. Blacks are more likely to attack other blacks. The media and Hollywood paint a different picture, but women are not the likeliest victims in a crime. Women, however, perceive themselves as being a likelier victim of a crime then most men.

That said, they are often viewed as easier victims by criminals, but as targets of opportunity they can be difficult to find. Thanks to our modern society, most women are aware enough not to put themselves in a position where they are easily victimized, thus helping to keep the statistic low.

You would think public places would be safe, but that is no guarantee.

If any woman I knew had shared this story with me, I would have praised their actions even though I have no idea if the men involved actually had malicious intent. When people act in a suspiscious manner, it is best to err on the side of caution.

Three men trying to corner a woman does not strike me as innocent behavior. At the VERY least, it is a form of harassment. Who knows, maybe they thought it would be fun to make her nervous and had no intentions outside of that. Even if that was their intent, it is not civilized behavior. Terrifying someone for fun should not be acceptable. From the most innocent of their intentions, it goes downhill from there.

There is no reason to wait until you are the victim of a violent crime before you take steps to protect yourself. If she had offended three guys too dense to realize their actions could be perceived as intimidating, well that's their own damn fault. Not hers.
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Old July 10, 2012, 10:03 AM   #40
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You've never heard of the Walmart Walk have you? It's a right of passage for CCW holders. Walmart does not care if you CCW there, heck it was started in Arkansas.
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Old July 10, 2012, 10:08 AM   #41
Youngshooter
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As far as I can see you did one helluva job raising your daughter. Many kudos to you, and also to her for having the situational awareness to get away from a situation which could've escalated quickly.
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Old July 10, 2012, 10:27 AM   #42
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Youngshooter,

Thank you. She was recruited by one of the intellegence agencies her senior year in college. She went to work in that field the month after she graduated.

She learned a lot in that time...

She had no previous experience with guns and when she got the job offer, an LEO friend of mine offered to teach her the basics.

They went to the range and he worked with her. She did not have any bad habits to unlearn and she made good progress.

When she got to DC she got a range membership and kept her skills up and made a few bucks shooting against some federal police who shot at the same range. They just could not believe she could shoot.

She just seems to have natural ability. She also had some really good instruction.

I am proud of her and the years she spent in DC did instill in her the need to be AWARE of your surroundings. You really cannot do that if you are fumbling with your shopping list or are otherwise distracted.

She learned enough from this experience that it will not happen again.

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Old July 10, 2012, 10:43 AM   #43
Youngshooter
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Just out of curiosity, may I ask what she majored in during her schooling to be recruited by an agency like that?
And she absolutely learned shooting the right way. I learned when I was really young by my dad who, at the time I'm sure aggravated me, but constantly examined me so that I wouldn't gain any unwanted habits.
My Mother is one tough cookie, but in a 5' 4" frame I worry about her going to the store alone even when it is mid-day. Crime is a 24 hour business. I'm not old enough to CCW, but I regularly carry a knife for multipurpose things throughout the day to ensure nothing gets too crazy God forbid.
Being very new to the forum I am just now learning that Wal-mart doesn't allow guns? A store that's located, in your daughter's case, a seedy location that doesn't allow customers to lawfully carry?
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Old July 10, 2012, 11:19 AM   #44
geetarman
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Youngshooter,

She started out in pre-med and found she liked business so much, she switched.

She has a double major in Business and Marketing and was a honors graduate.

The agency was recruiting on campus and something like 100 people applied for 3 slots.

She got one of them. The clearance she has cost the government ( us ) over 100K and requires a full scope poly and BI every 5 years to keep.

After a couple of years, she changed jobs and became a beltway bandit.

Decided to give up the endless travel and beltway bullcrap last year and had some job offers in the valley and took a job here.

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Old July 10, 2012, 11:30 AM   #45
Youngshooter
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That's very intriguing! I myself am a sophomore Business major right now. They tell you that you can do almost anything with a business degree, and it seems like that's true.
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Old July 10, 2012, 01:18 PM   #46
armoredman
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I don't think she would have been legal displaying a weapon given the three men had not spoken to her.
Well, yes and no. There is a law on AZ books called Defensive Display.

http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument....13&DocType=ARS

Quote:
A. The defensive display of a firearm by a person against another is justified when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force...
D. For the purposes of this section, "defensive display of a firearm" includes:
1. Verbally informing another person that the person possesses or has available a firearm.
2. Exposing or displaying a firearm in a manner that a reasonable person would understand was meant to protect the person against another's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.
3. Placing the person's hand on a firearm while the firearm is contained in a pocket, purse or other means of containment or transport.
If you are honestly believe that you are about to be attacked, you may display the firearm as outlined above. The "no" part of the answer is that none of the three had made overt moves, but if she had decided to "clear leather", she would have had a legal backing of sorts. Many have interpreted this statute as allowing "low ready" carry, or the famous hold it alongside your leg idea. I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, just mentioning this legal option.
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Old July 10, 2012, 01:30 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by armoredman
...If you are honestly believe that you are about to be attacked, you may display the firearm as outlined above...
One needs to careful about relying on his "honest belief." As stated in the statute you quoted, that is not the standard. The standard is (ARS 13-421A, emphasis added):
Quote:
...when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the use or attempted use of unlawful physical force...
The "objective" reasonable person standard is different in the law from your "subjective" honest belief.

It can help to think in terms of being able to articulate what you observed and why those particular things you observed would lead a reasonable person to the conclusion.
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Old July 10, 2012, 01:40 PM   #48
Tango Down
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Didn't feel the need to carry huh???? Some peoples reasoning never ceases to amaze me.
I CARRY 100% OF THE TIME & EVERY WHERE I GO.UNLESS OTHERWISE NOT ALLOWED WHICH IN THAT CASE, I DONT GO UNLESS ITS A GOVT BUILDING OR MIL BASE IN WHICH CASE I SURRENDER AND PROPERLY SECURE MY WEAPON TEMPORARILY.

I DONT THINK BAD GUYS THINK "I don't feel the need to rob &/or harm anyone here store XXXXX.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
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Old July 10, 2012, 01:57 PM   #49
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ADDENDUM----I always hear the phrase "I never thought it would of happened here &/or to me."
BE PREPARED 100% OF THE TIME.

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Old July 10, 2012, 02:11 PM   #50
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Frank, you are correct. Perhaps I was extending the courtesy of granting "reasonable" status to the young lady in question without extensive legal questioning.
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