The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 7, 2012, 06:05 AM   #26
FrankenMauser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: 1B ID
Posts: 6,732
W231/HP38 would be a good powder to cross over into .40 S&W, as well.

But, I think Unique is a better "beginner" powder. It's very pressure-tolerant in 9mm (even if it runs dirty in low pressure loads), it has a fairly broad charge range, and it is not primer sensitive. (accidentally using the wrong primer won't cause significant pressure changes)
__________________
"Such is the strange way that man works -- first he virtually destroys a species and then does everything in his power to restore it."
FrankenMauser is offline  
Old July 7, 2012, 06:15 AM   #27
RobertInIowa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 4, 2012
Location: Iowa
Posts: 149
Another vote for Power Pistol. Great for both 9mm and 40.
__________________
Guns don't kill people, fathers with pretty daughters do.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three comes pretty close.
Proud NRA member
RobertInIowa is offline  
Old July 7, 2012, 07:22 AM   #28
excelerater
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 27, 2011
Location: Memphis TN
Posts: 694
Power Pistol here also

Powder and experience have nothing to do with each other thou
excelerater is offline  
Old July 7, 2012, 08:20 AM   #29
Misssissippi Dave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2009
Posts: 1,407
I have used W231/HG38 and it works. It measures well in my powder measure. I prefer AA5 for 124 grain bullets and it works pretty good with 115 grain as well. I have tried 700X powder but I don't like to have to measure each and every load. 700X is a flake powder. It isn't consistent in my powder measure. I have tried other powders with varying results.

AA5 seems to burn cleaner than W231/HG does. For a little softer shooting load AA2 works as well. There are several powders that can be used to load 9 mm ammo. It mostly depends on what is available, the bullet type and weight as well as the performance you are trying to achieve. Some powders will work better closer to the low end and some work better closer to the top end. It just depends on what you want.
Misssissippi Dave is offline  
Old July 7, 2012, 12:06 PM   #30
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 35,890
Not sure any of the suitable powders would overflow the case with a double charge. Be careful, inspect your cases once they are charged, and you should be fine.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old July 7, 2012, 01:08 PM   #31
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,578
Just because I'm bored, I did some calculations based on Lee's VMD charts, the predicted case capacity of 9mm and each powder manufacturers starting loads...

9mm case capacity I find listed as 0.862 cm³. It seems to me that most cartridges (that I've measured) run about 10% over minimum numbers, so I'll go with 0.862 cm³x1.1, .9482 cm³.

Lee shows a VMD for W231 as .0931, Bullseye as .1064 and Power Pistol as .08891.

Hodgdon shows the starting load of Win231 and 115gr SGD as 4.7, max 5.1

Alliant shows 6.0 PP starting, max 6.7 and Bullseye 4.2 start and 4.7 max.

Okey dokey then...

A starting load of 231, double charged, would be 9.4gr and occupy .87514 cm³, so 92% case capacity. Max load, doubled, would be 10.2gr and occupy .94962cm³, or exactly 100% capacity.

Power Pistol would be between 12.0 and 13.4gr if double charged, occupying 1.066 and 1.19cm³, or from 112% to 125% capacity.

Bullseye would be 8.4 to 9.4 of doubled, occupying between .893 and 1.000 cm³, or 94 to 105% capacity.


Basically, there's a good chance that a true double charge WOULDN'T over flow the case, except with Power Pistol. The main points, though, being that:

1) I personally doubt a "true" double charge is your most likely mistake, as a (rightfully) paranoid newb.

2) Even if you did it without an actual overflow, it should be painfully obvious.

3)Mike is absolutely right in that you need to be careful and it won't happen anyway. I would add that if you CAN'T or WON'T be that careful, you really should find another hobby.

I was just curious how the numbers came out.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old July 7, 2012, 01:16 PM   #32
zxcvbob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2007
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Posts: 4,155
A double charge of Herco, Blue Dot, or AA#7 should overflow. I'm not sure even a single max charge of Herco or Blue Dot will fit without overflowing.
__________________
"The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun"
zxcvbob is offline  
Old July 7, 2012, 02:03 PM   #33
FlySubCompact
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2012
Posts: 221
Brian,

Glad you were bored. Interesting.

To all,

Believe me...I love my family's fingers and eyes.....every powder filled shell will get a check.

FrankenMauser said:

Quote:
But, I think Unique is a better "beginner" powder. It's very pressure-tolerant in 9mm (even if it runs dirty in low pressure loads), it has a fairly broad charge range, and it is not primer sensitive. (accidentally using the wrong primer won't cause significant pressure changes)
Can you expand on "primer sensitive"? Had not heard that term yet. I was going to use CCI primers. They are locally available at Bass Pro.
FlySubCompact is offline  
Old July 7, 2012, 03:51 PM   #34
valleyforge.1777
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 2, 2011
Posts: 148
I started reloading with 9 mm. I use a Dillon XL 650 progressive press. I looked through the Lyman #49 manual, and read through the Lee manual. Also, I use loading data from this site:
http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

However, I want to respectfully offer a different opinion than the other guys here about starting powder for 9 mm and particularly about metering. I started with Winchester 231, (same as Hodgdon HP-38). I read about different types of powder, and read lots of comments on forums about how various powders meter through the powder meters on the presses. As a new guy to reloading, you probably want the fewest possible glitches and fewest sources of variation and error. Every manual I looked at suggested power pistol, BUT that is not a ball powder and it may not meter as well as Winchester 231/Hodgdon HP-38, so why start with Power Pistol? Maybe you get to power pistol someday, maybe you wind up happy with other powders, but why start with something that may not meter as well as Win 231?

On Dillon XL650, I can visibly see into the cases as I place the bullet onto the brass to be seated. I also use a charge alarm, but I would not rely on it to pick up small variations in charges. It will pick up major under-charge or major over-charge, but it is just a back up safety feature since I can see into each case as it goes through the press cycle and the bullet is seated. Hopefully, your set up will allow a similar situation as you make rounds with your press.
valleyforge.1777 is offline  
Old July 7, 2012, 04:02 PM   #35
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,578
For what it's worth, Power Pistol meters just fine. It's no ball powder, but it doesn't present any problems. I have no doubt that W231 is probably "better" but good enough is good enough.

I'm sure whatever is easier to get will work just fine.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old July 7, 2012, 04:35 PM   #36
Hoosier_Daddy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2011
Location: Lower Michigan
Posts: 163
I tried Hdgdon HP-38 and Alliant Power Pistol powders for my 9 mm reloading. There was a major difference in recoil between the two. I put the Power Pistol on the shelf. I am reloading for non sanctioned IDPA club meets and don't have to meet a "power factor" and I don't need the extra recoil the Ppower Pistol delivered.
BTW. A double charge of 4.6 grains of HP-38 in a 9 mm case will be obvious. It won't overflow the case but if you take the time to take a peak at it, you will see that the case is almost completely full rather than about half full.
Hoosier_Daddy is offline  
Old July 7, 2012, 06:38 PM   #37
FrankenMauser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: 1B ID
Posts: 6,732
Quote:
Can you expand on "primer sensitive"? Had not heard that term yet. I was going to use CCI primers. They are locally available at Bass Pro.
Certain powders show significant pressure and/or velocity changes with different primers in the same load.

W296, for example, does not respond well to "accidentally" using a primer other than what the load was worked up with. Pressures might spike, or drop, depending on the exact substitution. The results are unpredictable.

Unique, on the other hand, is really tolerant of primer "accidents". Pressures don't change much, if at all, unless the load is right on the ragged edge and already near-failure.

I'm not advocating using whatever primer type happens to end up in the reloader's hand when gathering components, but it does add a little bit of a safety buffer.
__________________
"Such is the strange way that man works -- first he virtually destroys a species and then does everything in his power to restore it."
FrankenMauser is offline  
Old July 8, 2012, 02:04 AM   #38
Mike-Mat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 1, 2010
Location: Phoenix area
Posts: 361
Bullseye, Unique, Universal are all good choices for 9mm. I like about 4.6gr of Unique, with a Berry's plated 115gr or 124gr bullet. I can easily see the powder in the case before I place the bullet in and you can't double charge without an overflow. It's a nice safety. They all meter pretty well too.

Mike
__________________
Mike Mattera - Tips For Mfg
Video Training For CadCam Systems
http://www.tipsforcadcam.com
Mike-Mat is offline  
Old July 8, 2012, 10:41 AM   #39
mikld
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2009
Location: Southern Oregon!
Posts: 1,056
I would suggest (and mebbe I'm alone in this) that you consider learning safe reloading habits/methods rather than choose components by "if I make a mistake". Use the powder that best suits your intended purpose with the bullet of your choice, and learn how to reload it safely.

I check every powder charge in every case I reload. I visually inspect every case before I seat a bullet. And there are other "tricks" to safe powder charging; my sized/primed cases are sitting in one reloading block on the bench and as each one is charged, it is set in another reloading block. Then before I seat the bulets I pick up the block and either use a Mini-Maglight or bright desk lamp, look in every case. There's a bunch of methods/quirks to making sure only one powder charge gets in each case, an I'm sure some will be added (flip-flop cases, powder check dies, etc.)...
__________________
My Anchor is holding fast!
mikld is offline  
Old July 8, 2012, 11:26 AM   #40
Redleg76
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2012
Posts: 2
unique

I use Uniuqe for both 9 and .40 which i shoot both in comps. It is a very clean powder and you can not over charge the 9mm case with it. It would over flow. I have never had any problems with measureing unique.
Redleg76 is offline  
Old July 8, 2012, 01:25 PM   #41
Kilroy08
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 15, 2005
Posts: 166
I'm partial to Unique and Power Pistol.

I took the Hi Power and Norinco Uzi out the other day and had a ball. The lot of ammo I loaded up was about 50/50 between the two powders. I think it was 250 rounds all together.

Looking back at my load notes, I was using Speer 4062 125 grain round nose lead bullets motivated by 4.5 to 4.8 grains of Unique or 5 grains of Power Pistol with CCI 550 primers. I also had a box loaded up of Lee .358" 105 grain semi wadcutters sized to .356" packed on top of 4.4 grains of Unique with Winchester SPM primers. The brass was mixed head stamps.

Between those two powders, you have quite a few options. The only reason Unique might beat out Power Pistol is the fact that it's the village bicycle of reloading. It will load into just about anything.
Kilroy08 is offline  
Old July 8, 2012, 02:29 PM   #42
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikld View Post
I would suggest (and mebbe I'm alone in this) that you consider learning safe reloading habits/methods rather than choose components by "if I make a mistake". Use the powder that best suits your intended purpose with the bullet of your choice, and learn how to reload it safely.

I check every powder charge in every case I reload. I visually inspect every case before I seat a bullet. And there are other "tricks" to safe powder charging; my sized/primed cases are sitting in one reloading block on the bench and as each one is charged, it is set in another reloading block. Then before I seat the bulets I pick up the block and either use a Mini-Maglight or bright desk lamp, look in every case. There's a bunch of methods/quirks to making sure only one powder charge gets in each case, an I'm sure some will be added (flip-flop cases, powder check dies, etc.)...
I don't think any one is suggesting that bulky powders are a replacement for safe practices. They're just one more layer of safety. There's no way I would take the time to set aside all my charged cases and look in them with a flashlight. I want a powder I can see on the press, before I seat the bullet. I don't handle my brass 2, 3, 4 times before I'm done. I put a case in my Lee Classic turret and 4 pulls later it's a finished round. I wouldn't use a powder I couldn't check "on the press".
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old July 8, 2012, 03:49 PM   #43
wncchester
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2002
Posts: 2,832
There are no 'beginner' powders, anything listed in your reloading manual will do fine.
wncchester is offline  
Old July 8, 2012, 06:12 PM   #44
CherokeeT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 23, 2008
Location: Medina, Ohio
Posts: 263
I like 231 and also use Power Pistol (PP). PP gives great performance in upper level loads but has a lot of flash and is loud. 231 does does not have the same flash and bang but gives good performance. 231 would be good to start with and you can branch out after you get some experience.
__________________
God Bless America
US Army, NRA Endowment
TSRA Life, SASS
CherokeeT is offline  
Old July 15, 2012, 11:34 AM   #45
FlySubCompact
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2012
Posts: 221
Just an update....

Went to the local Bass Pro and got my first reloading stuff. The only powder they had in stock (from all your suggestions) was W231. Bought a pound of that, just to start out with. They did have some small pistol primers too, so I bought 500 of them.

Also bought a Lee hand primer. (I intend to deprime, then clean brass, reprime, then finish reloading on whatever press I end up with) Could not help it....had to reprime one 9mm case. Little Lee primer deal set a new primer, flush. Dropped that empty into the Glock and it popped like it should.

Did notice something odd after that trial though. Noticed that the newly shot primer had backed out, just a tad, after shooting it. I've not noticed that with new factory brass. Is this common for reloaded brass?

Last edited by FlySubCompact; July 15, 2012 at 01:10 PM.
FlySubCompact is offline  
Old July 15, 2012, 12:05 PM   #46
Strafer Gott
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2011
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,125
It's because it was empty. Doesn't happen when the case has propellant.
Strafer Gott is offline  
Old July 15, 2012, 12:18 PM   #47
ScottRiqui
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2010
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 2,905
+1

What happens when you fire a "normal" round (primer, powder, bullet) is that when the primer is ignited, it backs out of the case slightly. But then the force of the powder burning and expelling the bullet pushes the case backwards, re-seating the spent primer.
ScottRiqui is offline  
Old July 15, 2012, 01:06 PM   #48
FlySubCompact
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2012
Posts: 221
Interesting. Did not know that.
FlySubCompact is offline  
Old July 17, 2012, 08:02 AM   #49
WESHOOT2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 1999
Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country)
Posts: 14,213
Single powder for 9x19 = Power Pistol.
__________________
.
"all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"
WESHOOT2 is offline  
Old July 17, 2012, 09:30 AM   #50
tkglazie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 3, 2011
Posts: 558
Quote:
I put a case in my Lee Classic turret and 4 pulls later it's a finished round. I wouldn't use a powder I couldn't check "on the press".
Me too Brian. With .380/9mm (or even .32 Special) cases I find I can see pretty much any charge just by leaning forward a bit or parking myself right up next to the press (I use a tripod Lee Press Stand) but every charge I throw for .38/.357 requires a bit more straining/stretching to see inside the case. Most times I pull the case out, check the charge visually and put the bullet in place off the press, just to save the back. It is amazing how much time that little step costs me. Better than not checking though.

I really need to break down and rig up a light/mirror setup like some other folks have.
tkglazie is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.15003 seconds with 7 queries