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Old June 30, 2012, 01:27 PM   #1
pax
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Why teach women-only classes?

Please forgive the shameless bit of self promotion here, but I've just published an article that I'd really like to hear your feedback on. It's titled, "Why Women's Classes?" and you can find it at www.corneredcat.com/Why_Womens_Classes/

It used to be that everyone you met at the range, in the gun stores, or on gun boards like this one all fit a certain demographic. You know: middle-aged and older rural white guys, most of whom lived in the southern or western states.

That's no longer the case. Women are buying guns in record numbers, and most of those purchases are driven by a desire to learn more about self defense. (See, for example, the Gallup poll results here: http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/se...hest-1993.aspx.)

That's great for the training industry, or should be. But getting women, even eager new gun owners interested in self defense, into classes seems to be the sticking point. For example, one prominent trainer tells me that women make up less than 3% of his classes. That's at one extreme. Another prominent trainer tells me that women make up more than half of his classes these days, and that the number is still on the rise. That's the other extreme. Casual conversations with various trainers I know seem to yield female student percentages around 15 to 20% -- up dramatically from 10 years ago, but still lower than the number of women buying guns for self defense would suggest ought to be the case.

Meanwhile, every conversation I've heard among trainers about this subject seems to center on talk about marketing issues and how to sell classes to women and how to convince women to come to class and ...

But what they aren't talking about is, what do we teach women once they're there? That is the missing discussion point, I think. And that's what I'd like to get your feedback about. In what ways should training intended for women differ from training intended for the general public? Or should it?

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Old June 30, 2012, 01:59 PM   #2
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My wife is one of them. Of course we have a mutual friend in Dan Southard and he has great influence on my family. My wife comes from a large Hispanic family in Cruces and grew up with guns but she always had her Dad, Uncles, and Brothers to depend on. Now with the Cartels establishing here she is actually interested in firearms.
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Old June 30, 2012, 01:59 PM   #3
Bill DeShivs
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Yes, it should differ.
Empowerment of womed should be the underlying focus. Most women want to be able to defend themselves and their loved ones. For years, that task traditionally fell to men.
Also, the Second Amendment should be covered in some detail-as gun ownership is not just about protection, hunting, target shooting.
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Old June 30, 2012, 02:17 PM   #4
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From a little bit different perspective, I used to teach martial arts classes to women, men and children. One thing that was missing was training on what the escalation to an attack usually involves. Many trainers teach that there is an escalation of threats leading up to a physical attack (for example: aggressive behavior, followed by aggressive language, then testing out the victim by trying to intimidate them into giving what the attacker wants, followed by physical violence, at which point the supposed victim would react and fight back), and that an assertive acton by the intended victim can deter the attack. My training and experience says 'not so', that often the escalation part of attacks occurs well outside of the range of detection and control of the victim.

Consider the Taliban in Afghanistan training to attack the World Trade Center, Japanese in Manchuria training to attack Pearl Harbor, street punks in a basement training to attack a woman in a parking lot. Often the attacks are rapid and violent, stunning the victims into inaction. Women and men alike are not used to sudden attacks and do not generally train for them. A man walking from a building as a woman walks towards the building, they pass, and suddenly the man grabs the woman and body-slams her against a car, hits her once or twice, then does whatever his intent was to begin with. A man walking on the street, a cleancut teen walking beside him suddenly strikes him on the throat and the backs of the legs, then kicks him in the head, then proceeds with the intent of the attack. No warning, brutal, ultra-violent. These are the attacks it is hard to prepare and train for, you have to train your mind to respond in a martial manner. I feel it will have to be the same with firearms training. Do not learn to deter the attack, learn to keep your head and retaliate when you have been surprised.

When I worked in a retail gun shop, we often had people come in and buy a gun who said they had no intention of actually shooting someone, but just wanted it 'just in case'. Many of these were women and older gentlemen. Many men would come in and buy a gun, a holster, a couple of boxes of ammo, and had the intention of at least becoming familiar with the operation and handling of the firearm in case they needed to use it. I will not address the mindset of the purchasers (i.e. decision to kill if necessary), I do not know what that was as it was not within the scope of my job to interview purchasers as to their intent and resolution in case of need. I just sold guns and ammo and hunting licenses, not warrior training.

So, long roundabout way to answer the question, I would say that the first thing anyone looking for training will need to address is the gun owners' willingness and resolution to use lethal force if needed. And, BTW, I feel this is one area most concealed carry classes do not address in depth.
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Old June 30, 2012, 02:19 PM   #5
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Teach your core and suppliment !!

Quote:
In what ways should training intended for women differ from training intended for the general public? Or should it?
Not entirely informed on your agenda but to start out, Don't change it. As you progress into teaching these women's classes you will be very surprised what they will come with that can be worked into future classes. Right now, you have some very important information to share and can be supplimented by the experience. ..

I have taught a few exclusive female classes and they are excellent students. Generally they listen better then men. Seldom express their egos. When they come to learn, that is what they want with no exceptions. I am a better instructor because of this experience. Not only that, they are just more fun to teach. ..

Be Safe !!!
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Old June 30, 2012, 02:29 PM   #6
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I'm a retired teacher.

Studies have found that both females and males learn more in segregated classes in schools. Boys are more agressive and speak up more in class and girls tend to sit back and not ask questions even though they do not understand a concept when boys are present. Boys tend to misbehave more in mixed classes trying to impress the girls.

We don't want to admit it, but it is still pretty much the same after we become adults. The gym where I work out has 1 workout room that is male only on, or female only on alternating days. On the days it is male only the room is empty. On female only days it is packed. Many women will not work out when men are present. I can see the same with learning how to shoot.
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Old June 30, 2012, 02:44 PM   #7
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Quote:
one prominent trainer tells me that women make up less than 3% of his classes. That's at one extreme. Another prominent trainer tells me that women make up more than half of his classes these days, and that the number is still on the rise. That's the other extreme.
Have you been to the two instructors classes and seen how they act/train? I have not been in many training classes, but I have seen several instructors who were quite competent instructors for males but were very simply... ... ... ?horn dogs? when interacting with female students.

How many female instructors are there? I took golf instruction for years. One on one I always had male instructors. At camps I would often have female instructors mixed in. The female instructors always had a much different perspective than the male ones. THe male instructors were much more beneficial than the female.
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Old June 30, 2012, 02:49 PM   #8
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For an introduction to guns of any type - a women's only class gives the ladies a chance to work with an unfamiliar "machine" in an uncompetetive atmosphere. My wife volunteers with our gun club to assist with the women's class.

The overwhelming concensus is that the women's class is a success because it gives the class a chance to see other women who own guns, can handle a variety of guns, and can shoot competently. They also like it because they're not being compared to men who are larger, stronger, more agressive etc.

The interesting outcome of this, is many of the women have started shooting action pistol, and don't mind competing once they feel comfortable handling guns and shooting.

Using the women only format, the Women's Introduction to Pistols has become so popular that it is booked nearly a year in advance. The course is given twice a year, and there's a waiting list for each class.
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Old June 30, 2012, 02:49 PM   #9
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Quote:
Have you been to the two instructors classes and seen how they act/train? I have not been in many training classes, but I have seen several instructors who were quite competent instructors for males but were very simply... ... ... ?horn dogs? when interacting with female students.
Yes, I have. It's not a horn dog problem or anything like it. Instructor A markets his classes as macho high speed low drag stuff, while Instructor B markets to beginners and focuses all his advertising on the female market. (He points out that the men will come, regardless...) There's also some demographic difference in their respective locations, and that's all I'm willing to say since I wasn't intending to name names!

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Old June 30, 2012, 02:57 PM   #10
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Why teach Women only class's?

IMO based on my own experience, and training.

Women are in a unique position to be totally in a victim class. While many women are totally capable of defending themself (my daughter for example can kick the average man's butt, and she carries a shiney .38 with pink grips for those she cant), they are almost always percieved as a potential victim. Women tend to be smaller, weaker in upper body strength, and women walk around their entire life with the ultimate prize.

Some people have developed stratigies, and technique uniquely female. One thing I learned in life is that women are victims far more often than ever reported. Women are victims in more ways than most people could ever imagine. In my experience 99% of the time when a woman is a victim the perpetrator is a man. IMO Women need and deserve their own skillset to protect themselves. IMO The most effective tactical advantage in a self defense situation is surprise. A woman who has a skillset unique to women will have that tactical advantage.

Again based on my own training and experience.
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Old June 30, 2012, 03:01 PM   #11
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Our monthly NRA Basic Handgun classes run between 20% and 50% women. We have three female instructors (all NRA certified and one also POST certified) in our group. We also try to maintain a 1:2 to 1:3 instructor to student ratio.

We find that on one hand women make better students because they actually listen and don't carry a bunch of gender related baggage ("I'm a guy so I automatically know about guns.").

On the other hand, many of our woman students have what appears to be a socially conditioned fear of guns, and that needs to be appropriately channeled. We don't want anyone to entirely lose the perspective that guns can be dangerous. We want them to come to understand that even though guns can be dangerous, one can with knowledge mange them safely. Patient, personalized instruction, as well as the "role-models" of women instructors, help a good deal.

Women also seem to benefit from more individual help with the mechanical aspects of gun handling. They are sometimes less mechanically inclined. They also sometimes have more difficulty managing the slides on semi-autos (but actually a lot of the guys in our classes do too).

When we have a chance to talk with some of our women students after the class, they generally say that before coming to class they were worried that they be patronized or talked down to, and they were concerned that the whole thing would be too "macho." We've worked hard to avoid those possible pitfalls. And a women only class would go far towards dispelling those concerns going in.
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Old June 30, 2012, 07:33 PM   #12
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For those who don't know --men and women are different !!
Therefore training should be different. John Farnam ,a top instructor, has an instructor wife Vicki.She and another woman have written a book about how and why of teaching women to shoot. If you're going to train women you should read the book.
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Old June 30, 2012, 11:14 PM   #13
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I feel like my wife may like and all female class, she may feel more comfortable and learn to enjoy shooting sports a bit more.
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Old July 2, 2012, 01:44 PM   #14
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I generally agree with most of the comments here. But I see no reason that women should be taught anything different than men, though I couldn't comment on how they should be taught any differently. I do see the value of a female-only class and by extension, probably with a female instructor. I also suspect that a woman will view the class, meaning what she wants out of it, very differently than a man taking a similiar class, with or without women in the class.

I would not suggest bringing up the 2nd amendment, unless you can convince me that the man who wrote it, my wife's great-great-great-great-great (give or take), George Mason, had concealed carry for women in mind. Also, the Japanese trained for the Pearl Harbor attack in Japan, not Manchuria.
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Old July 2, 2012, 02:11 PM   #15
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My only problem with women only classes is that men-only classes are claimed to be sexist, but that women only classes are to meet certain needs and that some of those that claim men-only classes are sexist will claim women-only classes are not. The worst thing I had happen in a mixed class is that my wife out shot me on one of the final drills and my buddies gave me grief over tha for quite a while until I pointed out how my wife could out shoot all their wives.

It is good to know your spouse is competent and acccomplished.

Quote:
Therefore training should be different. John Farnam ,a top instructor, has an instructor wife Vicki.She and another woman have written a book about how and why of teaching women to shoot. If you're going to train women you should read the book.
LOL, I hope Vicky and the other author are smarter than Farnum. Once he stated that things beyond 21m were out of pistol range, his credibility dropped significantly for me.
http://defense-training.com/quips/25Apr12.html

Not only would segregated classes by sex potentially be better overall for everyone involved, but so too should considerations such as age. One of the Dallas Ranges had gun classes for the elderly for a while which I thought was a neat idea. They work with some of the physical limitations that come with advanced age and coping with them for shooting, being weaker, slower, having eyesight issues, etc. that seem to compound as folks age.
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Old July 2, 2012, 04:18 PM   #16
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I strongly support women only classes. I hope you ban their male companions, husbands and significant others. I am a good instructor ( improved my departments qual scores by an average of 50%) but could not teach my wife.

i wish I had gotten my wife enrolled into one 40 years ago. (we have been married 42 years) By waiting i lost 40 years of sharing my favorite activity.

I hope you encourage your students to make their own decision on the weapons they chose for their use.

Good luck
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Old July 2, 2012, 09:35 PM   #17
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I think this is an interesting question. I've taught martial arts and in several instances the places I trained and taught had different approaches to training women.

Both places taught regular classes in a coed setting. The difference was in the later school there were women's classes. The women's classes were taught by male instructors as no female instructors were available. The interesting thing was that the curriculum was the same, but the female students seemed a bit more willing to ask questions and seek 1 on 1 help. This seemed to benefit the newer students most of all and I think it increased their comfort level in coed classes later.

Another interesting side note with several of our female members that competed was that they actually preferred training with male students because it was more of a challenge. They all said that training with there male counterparts regularly gave them an edge against their opponents who didn't do the same. Most commonly they told me that they learned how to deal with the greater strength and size of the male students and that when they competed against women of their same size it was much easier for them.
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Old July 3, 2012, 12:56 AM   #18
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I would but a greater emphasis on field striping, taking the gun down and putting it back together. Our society doesn't encourage women to mess with machines, that's a mistake. demystifying the gun as a machine instills confidence. That's true of both men and women.

Scorch points out that people aren't used to the suddenness of violence or its practical application.
Women's self defense classes now use an instructor dressed in heavy padding so that women can learn how it feels to use full force on an opponent. Previously many highly trained women were still unable to defend themselves because the weren't for whatever reason using full force against their attackers.
Again this is true of men as well as women. It's just the problem was more evident with women.
How you apply the same lesson to firearms training is above my pay grade. It should be something to consider.
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Old July 3, 2012, 02:53 AM   #19
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I think there are a few ways to look at the question.

First, and obviously, the instructor needs to have an idea what the students (women in this example) want to learn. Within reason, the student's priorities should drive the focus of the class.

But then again, people don't know what they don't know, and an instructor should try to enlighten... Catch-22.

When teaching basic Aikido, and when working with women - all things being equal - I tend to focus more on those basic techniques that deal with escaping from grabs and chokes. With men, the initial focus tends to be more toward dealing with shoves and punches. My thought process on that is, domestic violence notwithstanding, women are more likely to be grabbed by an assailant, and men are more likely to be struck.

IE, my focus with women is more on getting away from a would-be kidnapper or rapist.

If I were teaching women in a women-only self-defense course that involved firearms, I think I might put some emphasis on how to evade a grab, and draw and use a weapon when in close contact.

Teaching about situational awareness is appropriate, and worthy, but sometimes people get caught by surprise. Bad guys tend to try for surprise - at least the ones who have better than room temperature IQs.

Now, while I definitely see the value in women-only classes for the first time (or first few times), I also strongly believe that women need to eventually train in a co-ed setting - especially for physical training. A couple weeks ago, I had a 105lb Physician's Assistant hip-throwing a couple 200lb males. Good confidence boost for her, and a good eye-opener for the guys. I think women need to learn to deal with their most likely threats - men.

Respectfully,

M
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Old July 3, 2012, 09:12 AM   #20
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For people in the Phoenix AZ area, Caswells in Mesa has an outstanding program for new women shooters.

They have several of classes. The classes range from basic this is a pistol the bullet comes out here very fast. To top of the line self defense.

The instructors interview the lady and determine her knowledge level and interest. They then place her into a class with students with a similar level of experience. My wife was extremely pleased with her experience.

My wife came home from her third class and related this incident.

One of her fellow students was complaining that she did not have the strength to load the magazine of her pistol. My wife, mimicking my growl, replied, "get a revolver". I knew I had a shooting companion for life.
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Old July 3, 2012, 11:27 AM   #21
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DNS ~

To be clear, I have never said, nor I hope implied, that male-only classes would be sexist. They might be a good idea in many ways. Not something I've thought extensively about, since I'm not qualified to teach such a class, but certainly acceptable. Male-only classes would prevent scenes like one I saw a few years ago, where an unhappy man had been outshot by his wife on a shotgun qual, and stomped to the back of the range where he literally started throwing the range chairs around while cussing under his breath. Would also probably improve some guys' shooting skills when they can concentrate on what they're doing rather than worrying about how the nice lady next to them is getting along. I have seen that women can be a distraction for some guys, even women who are basicallly strangers but especially women who are loved ones, and even women in whom they have no particular sexual interest. But talking about all of that social dynamic is really a very different thing than considering the actual content of the class.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish52084
Another interesting side note with several of our female members that competed was that they actually preferred training with male students because it was more of a challenge. They all said that training with there male counterparts regularly gave them an edge against their opponents who didn't do the same. Most commonly they told me that they learned how to deal with the greater strength and size of the male students and that when they competed against women of their same size it was much easier for them.
This tends to be more true in physical skills classes, especially (in my world) as it relates to handgun retention & disarms. Women do need to gain confidence from working out with male "attackers," no doubt about that.

On the shooting side, though, one of the things I'm up against is the pernicious assumption that a class full of women isn't a class full of shooters. Women can push each other to excel! The process looks a little difference in a class full of women than it does in a primarily-male environment, but that doesn't mean it can't or doesn't happen. I'm looking for ways to make this happen.

Everyone ~

To be clear, I'm not talking about classes specifically for beginning students. Not every female student is a beginning shooter. Some of the factors I'm considering really come into play at the intermediate level -- after she's made the decision that her life is worth defending, after she's learned the basic skill set. The little personalized tweaks to stance and grip are more for intermediate shooters than for beginners, for example. Similarly, understanding the social dynamics in play during criminal encounters might be more of a skill you teach to people who have already bought into the defense mindset.

But there we are back at the assumption that women are always and only beginners, not expected to gain real skill or learn enough to teach others. Not sure what to do about that.

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Old July 3, 2012, 11:43 AM   #22
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pax,

Sorry if I came across as assuming that female shooters would be beginners. However, in my experience, most classes set up specifically as "women only" are in fact designed for beginners, with the intent of providing a (theoretically) more comfortable setting for newbies.

I don't recall ever seeing ads for "women only" classes for shooting, martial arts, or physical fitness sessions that were not oriented toward beginners. That doesn't mean they don't or couldn't exist, just that I haven't encountered them.

I know quite a few women who are very good shooters - to include you. I don't assume that women are all going to be beginners.

Regards,

M
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Old July 3, 2012, 11:45 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pax
...I'm not talking about classes specifically for beginning students. Not every female student is a beginning shooter...
True, and a good point. I focused on beginners before, because my experience it in teaching beginners.
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Old July 3, 2012, 01:30 PM   #24
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I also teach NRA Basic Pistol and I can say that there are many reasons to offer women-only classes. My wife took one, also taught by a female instructor, and had a great time, learned a lot and qualified for her CC application.

Women-only classes eliminate the husband/boyfriend factor which is not always positive.
Some women (note I said "some") are going to be really nervous. Being with other ladies will mitigate that.
Women will tend to ask important questions that they may not necessarily ask if they are in the minority.
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Old July 3, 2012, 03:53 PM   #25
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Personally, I think "women only" and "men only" shooting classes are good ideas. It's distracting shooting with a woman who is a beginner. Men seem to naturally want to "help" the beginning woman shooter. The reverse doesn't seem to be true - just human nature, I suppose. If I'm trying to learn new techniques or practice old ones, etc. with a group of guys, it's counter productive being distracted by men paying too much attention to, or "helping" women students. Neither sex is at fault - it's just the way things tend to be.

However, once men and women are well into the shooting sports, I don't think having mixed classes matters as much.
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