The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Revolver Forum

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old July 6, 2012, 11:30 AM   #126
willmc33
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 2012
Location: Mobile,Al
Posts: 473
Peter S you have a point and that is one reason I choose to carry a J frame as apposed to a .380 acp is because the .38 Special has a wider variety of bullet weights. That is just one of the many reasons I choose .38 over .380. I would say most 9mm loadings are hotter then most .38 Special loadings but if you get into high weigh prejectiles per loading then it does come close to evening up. Buffalo Bore for example their 158 grain LSWCHP is 1,000 F.P.S with 330 Ft-Lbs. M.E. and their 147 grain +p+ is 1175 F.P.S with 451 Ft-Lbs muzzle energy. That being said and with one of the hottest loading manufacturers.
__________________
"Perfection is the enemy of good enough"
willmc33 is offline  
Old July 6, 2012, 12:19 PM   #127
carprivershooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2008
Location: Michigan, Upper Pennsula
Posts: 393
To get back to the question the original poster asked"What can and can't a .38 cal do?". It can't fire a 44 spl. It can stop a man as well as any other round if the shooter does his job. More rounds down range does not insure more good hits unless as a shooter you do your job. Sight picture, breath control,trigger control.
__________________
CarpriverShOOter
Finch, I don't like guns. Reese, Me either but if someone has to have guns I'd rather it be me. (Person of Interest).
No trees were destroyed in the posting of the this message
carprivershooter is offline  
Old July 6, 2012, 12:53 PM   #128
willmc33
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 2012
Location: Mobile,Al
Posts: 473
DEPUTY276 it seems more like if it isnt .44 Special or .44 Magnum it isnt lethal coming out more than anything else. I havent really seen a valid point on what .38 Special can and cant do or modern bullet designs or the 5.56 round or to much of anything else yet. If you want to go off real world experience based off numbers the .44 Magnum doesnt do as well as others at O.S.S. which unless you have been out shooting alot of people with different guns is most of what you have to go on. A big slow bullet is no more lethal then a lighter fast moving bullet. I would say a 125 grain .357 Magnum JHP has proven that without arguement. The fact that .38 Special has been in constant production for 113 years and is extremely popular has no merit? The fact that the .44 Special has never been as successful is just bad luck? The fact that the U.S. Military uses the 5.56 means its ineffective and they have no interest in giving their soldiers an effective weapon? I would say the 5.56 has dispatched more then enough enemy soldiers to prove that it is highly lethal.

I will share real world experience. We trap feral hogs and at times use different guns and ammo combinations to finish them. I had a Charter Bulldog loaded with 200 grain Winchester Silver Tip's. Head shot shot went in right above the ear went through the brain and hit the skull on the other side and stopped. This was a shot from around 2 feet. Hog weighed 300 lbs. Another time finish shot was given with a Ruger SP 101 loaded with Buffalo Bore 158 grain LSWCHP +P delivered to almost the same spot on the head. Bullet entered breaking the skull, passed through the brain, clipped the top of the jaw bone shattering it, shattering about a 3 inch wide circle of skull and exited the other side. This shot was delivered at just about an identical distance and identical shot placement. The .44 Special did mushroom rather large but it did not completely penetrate. The .38 Special did mushroom,by evidence in the wound path, and still perforated the skul after hitting multiple spots of heavy bone.

Point being that just because you prefer big bore bullets doesnt mean you should dismiss the others. If you load your gun with reduced power .44 Magnums then wouldnt that in effect be the same thing as a .44 Special +P? I dont understand all the attempted points at modern bullet hollow point ammunition from someone who chooses a hard cast flat nose bullet for HD/SD. Again not trying to be overly argumentative or rude but I keep missing your points apparently.
__________________
"Perfection is the enemy of good enough"

Last edited by willmc33; July 6, 2012 at 01:00 PM.
willmc33 is offline  
Old July 6, 2012, 01:05 PM   #129
Skadoosh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,772
Quote:
So how EXACTLY does more FPS = "better"???
well, according to physics, a pencil eraser at rest will not hurt as much as a pencil eraser traveling 2,000fps....

__________________
NRA Life Member (2003)
USN Retired
I think that one of the notions common to the anti-gunner is the idea that being a victim is 'noble'; as if it is better to be noble in your suffering than disruptive in your own defense.
Skadoosh is offline  
Old July 6, 2012, 01:22 PM   #130
JonathanZ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 11, 2009
Posts: 201
I'm not sure why anyone would say +P loads are obselete and unnecessary, yet shoot or carry 44 Magnums. Even a light 44 Magnum is like a 44 Special +P+++.
JonathanZ is offline  
Old July 6, 2012, 01:28 PM   #131
Deputy276
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 6, 2010
Location: Silver City, New Mexico
Posts: 102
"To get back to the question the original poster asked "What can and can't a .38 cal do?". It can't fire a 44 spl"

We have a bingo!!!
__________________
Bigger holes make deader souls.
Deputy276 is offline  
Old July 6, 2012, 01:29 PM   #132
Deputy276
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 6, 2010
Location: Silver City, New Mexico
Posts: 102
I'm not sure why anyone would say +P loads are obselete and unnecessary, yet shoot or carry 44 Magnums. Even a light 44 Magnum is like a 44 Special +P+++.

There are no warnings in a .44 magnum manual about NOT using +P ammo.
__________________
Bigger holes make deader souls.
Deputy276 is offline  
Old July 6, 2012, 01:32 PM   #133
Deputy276
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 6, 2010
Location: Silver City, New Mexico
Posts: 102
"Ah, but now you're getting into "knockdown power" or "stopping power", not simply "lethality". I would bet that the overwhelming majority of people who take a solid torso hit from a NATO 5.56 round will die in short order (<30 minutes) without competent medical attention. That makes it "lethal" in my book.'

Knockdown power is a myth. NO bullet can knock you down. If it could, the guy firing it would also be knocked down.

And you would LOSE that bet (and your life) if you were shooting at skinnies in Somalia.

The simple fact is NO weapon is a "death ray", no matter how many "+s" you have in front of it's caliber.
__________________
Bigger holes make deader souls.
Deputy276 is offline  
Old July 6, 2012, 01:33 PM   #134
Deputy276
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 6, 2010
Location: Silver City, New Mexico
Posts: 102
"well, according to physics, a pencil eraser at rest will not hurt as much as a pencil eraser traveling 2,000fps...."

Awww...but is it a hollowpoint eraser or a round nose eraser? It matters!!!
__________________
Bigger holes make deader souls.
Deputy276 is offline  
Old July 6, 2012, 01:46 PM   #135
Deputy276
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 6, 2010
Location: Silver City, New Mexico
Posts: 102
"If you want to go off real world experience based off numbers the .44 Magnum doesnt do as well as others at O.S.S. which unless you have been out shooting alot of people with different guns is most of what you have to go on. A big slow bullet is no more lethal then a lighter fast moving bullet. I would say a 125 grain .357 Magnum JHP has proven that without arguement."

Let me take you back in the Peabody Wayback machine to the days of the Old West. Or if you prefer, to the cemetaries in the Old West. Now count how many graves are occupied by folks who were shot with the .44/40 and .45 Long Colt. Quite a few. Those bullets were zipping along at pretty much the same velocity as the .44 Special. Now move up to WW1 and later to guys hit by the .45ACP. Funny thing, but there were no complaints from users of the 1911A1 of the round not doing it's job.

Now move to the police departments who were using the .38 Special in ANY loading, since the military pretty much abandoned the caliber for most uses.
LOTS of complaints back then of it not doing it's job after multiple solid torso hits. The .357 Magnum was supposed to be the savior of the .38 Special, but the police trained on .38 Wadcutters and carried the .357 magnum loads. Bad idea. The difference in recoil and muzzle flash was so great that after the first shot the cop was pretty much blinded and useless. Plus the only really good performance was with the 125 grain bullet.

I don't know what "real world" numbers you are using to complain about the .44 Magnum, but I think the names Marshall and Sanow may be the culprits. ALL of their findings have been debunked. The only reason they scored the .357 Magnum so high is because there were more shootings with it than any other caliber AT THE TIME. So the data is skewed. Plus they were reportedly connected to Cor-Bon. So they made sure the "numbers" came out to benefit Cor-Bon. Now that .40 S&W has become the caliber of choice for most PDs and civilians, I expect it's numbers to far exceed the .357 Magnum. Plus it's a much more controllable loading.
__________________
Bigger holes make deader souls.
Deputy276 is offline  
Old July 6, 2012, 01:49 PM   #136
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,825
If numbers mean nothing, then how is one bullet better than another?
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old July 6, 2012, 01:58 PM   #137
willmc33
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 2012
Location: Mobile,Al
Posts: 473
Themilitary failures were NOT with the .38 Special and the multiple torso hits were with a LRN projectile going very slow. That is my point about Marshal and Sanow. Unless you have gone first hand and seen all handgun wound effects you cant really debunk any caliber. The .38 Special rode in holsters longer then anything else. Most did not train with .38's and then load .357's because most just carried .38's. How ever many people were killed in the old west doesnt have any merit here for a number of reasons. Biggest IMO is because thats what was available then. There were no 9mm's, .357 Magnums, .357 Sigs, .40 S&W, 10mm. To speak of modern bullet design but then speak of old west lethality is kind of confusing?

I will not use the time machine I will instead use historical production figures.
9mm Luger= Constant production since 1902
.38 Special= Constant production since 1899
.357 Magnum= Constant production since 1934

If there were any problem with these cartridges they would not have stayed in production this length of time and still be as widely used as they are. Every handgun bullet has failed at one time or another. The progression of ammo and powder charge does not mean that a round because it has changed from it original loading is obselete or not a good SD round. .45 Colt, 44/40, .44 Special, .44 Russian and so on have not gained more usage these days because in fact compared to todays calibers and loadings these would be more considered obselete. Good rounds sure. Better then what is available now No. The .38 Special rode in police holsters for more then 70 years. During that time there were more powerful alternatives but the .38 Special still held strong.
I would also add that all I have ever seenshot with a .44 Magnum have been game animals. That being said I saw a big boar shot with a .44 Magnum drop and get right back up and tree the shooter gashing his calf open in the process.
I have seen a bigger hot shot with a 10mm with similar shot placement and drop on spot and not get back up. The variables are to big.
__________________
"Perfection is the enemy of good enough"

Last edited by willmc33; July 6, 2012 at 02:18 PM.
willmc33 is offline  
Old July 6, 2012, 03:21 PM   #138
Deputy276
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 6, 2010
Location: Silver City, New Mexico
Posts: 102
LOL...there are a LOT of cartridges still in production that are obsolete. Perhaps people should arm themselves with a .38 Long Colt or a .32 Short Colt, or a .32 S&W Long or a 9MM Largo or a 7.63 Mauser or one of the numerous other obsolete cartridges. Just because it has a long production run, doesn't give it any advantage or make it more deadly than another caliber. The .22 Long Rifle has been around longer than any of the ones you listed. Gonna use that as your primary defensive weapon? Considering the number of .38 Special and .357 Magnum guns made and still being made, it's no surprise that the round still exists. That DOESN'T make it the best round for personal defense.
__________________
Bigger holes make deader souls.
Deputy276 is offline  
Old July 6, 2012, 03:29 PM   #139
willmc33
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 2012
Location: Mobile,Al
Posts: 473
It doesnt make it the best but it does make a better point then trying to use old west graveyards to make a point for large bores. You do alot of dancing around on points your trying to make. Alot do arm themselves with those rounds listed and I wouldnt tell anyone not to arm themselves with what they could because my personal opinion views it as not the best. You choose .44 magnum but choose not to load it to its potential. Is that ideal? Not to me but it is to you. I never claimed that the .38 Special was the BEST SD cartridge. I dont think there is a best. All good calibers have their positives and negatives.. You exactly stated a point that is valid. With the numbers of .38 and .357 revolvers STILL IN PRODUCTION. If they were not a good SD option they would not still be holding their own among a massive auto loader market. How's the .44 Special doing these days?
__________________
"Perfection is the enemy of good enough"

Last edited by willmc33; July 6, 2012 at 03:38 PM.
willmc33 is offline  
Old July 6, 2012, 03:35 PM   #140
willmc33
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 2012
Location: Mobile,Al
Posts: 473
And I am not bashing .44 Special by any means I like the round and have owned revolvers chambered for it but to me it didnt offer any advantage to a .38 Special in a snub nosed revolver. Ammunition is to scarce (unless I buy offline) and expensive.
__________________
"Perfection is the enemy of good enough"
willmc33 is offline  
Old July 6, 2012, 03:50 PM   #141
skoro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 30, 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,656
What can and what can't a .38 special do?

My 38spl snubby can and does make me feel very confident that it would serve well if necessary.
skoro is offline  
Old July 6, 2012, 03:53 PM   #142
youngunz4life
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2010
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,877
deputy you make some good points. Even an ER Doctor without much weapons knowledge knows and will confirm when asked that most victims of 44 wounds die on the table. Also, it is undeniable that bullet design makes a difference(hollowpoints as an example)

that being said, saying +P ammo is irrelevant or doesn't make a difference is in fact an incorrect statement. Sometimes depending on the particular situation maybe the difference is considered negligable, but not every time...you will wear out the weapon quicker, but as long as you are not firing that round all the time it can help in a HD/SD situation.

I use the +P hollowpoint old cia/fbi rounds for my 38derringer and do not plan on changing that based on your opinion. the round will eventually cause issues with my firearm if I shoot it a lot(which I don't), but of course it is always fire ready. At any rate, I feel more comfortable with this round as I usually have 357s(44mag rifle), and the 38 derringer saturday night special is my backup gun and NY reload
__________________
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864
youngunz4life is offline  
Old July 6, 2012, 03:54 PM   #143
Spats McGee
Staff
 
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 4,957
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deputy276
. . . . Considering the number of .38 Special and .357 Magnum guns made and still being made, it's no surprise that the round still exists. That DOESN'T make it the best round for personal defense.
I don't recall anyone claiming that the .38 Special was "the best round for personal defense." I believe the opening question was:
Quote:
What can and what can't a .38 special do?
Clearly, Deputy276, you do not think that .38Spl falls within the description of "rounds sufficient for self-defense." Fair enough. I disagree. I will not claim that it is "the best" SD round. IMO, it is sufficient. It is capable of doing enough damage to stop an attacker, and controllable enough that I believe that I could reasonably expect to put any shots subsequent to the first one on target, if necessary.
__________________
A gunfight is not the time to learn new skills.

If you ever have a real need for more than a couple of magazines, your problem is not a shortage of magazines. It's a shortage of people on your side of the argument. -- Art Eatman
Spats McGee is offline  
Old July 6, 2012, 05:00 PM   #144
Exastly
Member
 
Join Date: May 10, 2012
Posts: 16
.38 special ammunition CAN be purchased from your local Wally world. You can also afford enough ammunition to be able to become a decent enough shot to be able to defend yourself.
Exastly is offline  
Old July 6, 2012, 05:26 PM   #145
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,825
If a cartridge is still in production, then it's not obsolete.

I think the .38 special is a perfectly adequate self-defense cartridge for a revolver. It isn't a big game cartridge to be sure but some would claim neither is a .357 magnum. Going on from there, some would say neither is a .44 magnum, now that larger cartridges are available for handguns but, again, some would say no handgun cartridge is adequate for large animals. But you are certainly more likely to be carrying a handgun around all the time instead of walking off and leaving it leaning against a tree fifty feet away while you're gathering an armload of wood.

Is it the best for self-defense? For a revolver, sometimes I think it is. I also think you're never poorly armed, given the basic limitations of a handgun to begin with, revolvers in particular.

Our expectations are not what they used to be.
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old July 6, 2012, 05:35 PM   #146
Webleymkv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 9,844
Quote:
If a cartridge is still in production, then it's not obsolete.
True, but I would consider some cartridges that are still in production to be obsolescent. In my mind, a cartridge is obsolete when neither guns nor ammunition are in production and obsolescent when ammunition is still produced, but guns are no longer available. Examples of obsolescent cartridges would include .32 Short Colt, .32 S&W, .38 S&W, .455 Webley, 7.62 Nagant, 8mm Gasser, and 7.63 Mauser. A cartridge can, of course be brought back from being obsolete or obsolescent if the production of guns and/or ammunition is resumed after a hiatus. Examples of such are many old west cartridges such as .44 Russian, .45 Schofield, .38-40, and .32-20 which have been revived due to interest in Cowboy Action Shooting.

Of course, .38 Special has never had a hiatus in production of guns or ammunition (the S&W Model 10 holds the title of longest continuous production handgun) so it is neither obsolete nor obsolescent.
__________________
Smith, and Wesson, and Me. -H. Callahan
Well waddaya know, one buwwet weft! -E. Fudd
All bad precedents begin as justifiable measures. -J. Caesar
Webleymkv is offline  
Old July 6, 2012, 08:36 PM   #147
JonathanZ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 11, 2009
Posts: 201
Quote:
There are no warnings in a .44 magnum manual about NOT using +P ammo.

"Why subject yourself to excessive recoil of +P and .357 Mag when you can get a .44 Special that is comfortable to shoot and more efffective?"

"The .44 magnum is basically a hunting caliber, although it will also chamber the .44 Special."

"As to +P and magnum loads...I wouldn't use a caliber if that's what's required to make them effective."





The whole point is with any caliber you need velocity to create expansion and to get penetration. At some point you run into overkill on the velocity, but no 38 Special +P or 44 Special +P is going to be overkill. They're also nowhere close to even light magnum loads in the same caliber. Modern firearms are perfectly capable of handling +P loads unless you shoot thousands and thousands of rounds in them.

The funny thing is even a +P 38 Special is still not a high pressure cartridge. It is only considered over pressure compared to a standard pressure 38 Special.

I still have a lot to learn about guns and ammo and some people have way more to learn than I do.




To the original point of this thread, the 38 Special can actually make a pretty good woods round. I don't get why most 38 Special defense loads with 125 grain bullets come up short of the 9mm in velocity, yet Buffalo Bore has a 158 grain hard cast load that gets anywhere from 1100-1250 fps in 3"-6" barrels.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...t_detail&p=288

So why don't we get 125 grain 38 Special +P's in the 1200 fps range??? I realize Buffalo Bore loads their stuff to the max, but even with 20% less weight and the same velocity you get 125 grains at 1100+ fps that we don't see in self defense ammo.
JonathanZ is offline  
Old July 6, 2012, 10:33 PM   #148
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,190
Quote:
Which Is why I chose the load I did. I already tried full power .44 mag loads and the recoil (not the comfort level) was excessive.
The load you chose is a light .44Mag which has velocity that exceeds even a .44Special +P. It doesn't make sense for you to argue against the value of +P and more velocity in .38Spl and then reveal that you don't trust .44Spl enough to use it for home defense--that you feel have to use something with more velocity and pressure than the .44Spl to get the job done.
Quote:
There are no warnings in a .44 magnum manual about NOT using +P ammo
That's not relevant--your repeated claim has been that +P/additional velocity offers no benefit. If that's true, why aren't you using standard pressure .44Spl in your home defense gun instead of light .44Mag rounds? Clearly you must believe that the additional velocity/energy compared to the standard pressure .44Spl is buying you something or you wouldn't use it.
Quote:
And I would bet money most people DON'T know the actual bullet diameters that were posted.
That's neither here nor there. They aren't trying to make authoritative statements about what's more effective or less effective with respect to terminal performance. It's reasonable to expect someone who's making such statements to have a handle on the most basic aspects of terminal performance and, conversely, it's reasonable to expect that someone who doesn't have a handle on those aspects isn't at all likely to be helpful when it comes to the more complex aspects of the topic.
Quote:
So why would I know what is and isn't available?
You stated that those bullet designs made +P obsolete. The fact is that ALL of the bullet designs you listed are sold in +P loadings. Not only do those bullet designs NOT make +P obsolete, they are actually USED in +P ammunition.

The point isn't what you know about what's available, the point is that the evidence that you provided that supposedly proves that +P is obsolete actually proves that +P is alive and well and that the bullets that supposedly make it obsolete are actually considered, by the manufacturers/designers of the bullets, to be useful in +P loadings as evidenced by their decision to load and sell those bullets in +P loadings.
Quote:
Well Professor Einstein, people who use things like muzzle energy, FPS and other mathematical numbers to judge the effectiveness of a bullet are going to be extremely disappointed.
It's true that people who think a topic as complex as terminal ballistics can be boiled down to a few simple numbers will be disappointed. That's true whether a person puts their hope in energy, momentum OR diameter as the single parameter that tells the whole story.

However, it's also true that understanding the scientifically proven quantities relating to the science of motion and ballistics will provide valuable insight into the basics of terminal ballistics. Muzzle energy, velocity, and "other mathematical numbers" and quantities related to terminal ballistics and the science of projectile motion certainly don't tell the whole story, but they are a good place to START.
Quote:
Example: Would you consider a weapon that produces 1323 Ft Lbs of energy and zips along at 3100FPS as having impressive lethality?? Be careful before answering, it's a trick question.
It's not a trick question at all, it's simply a question where insufficient information has been provided to give an accurate answer. The answer is that depending on a number of assumptions and other variables, such a weapon certainly has the potential to be "impressively lethal".
Quote:
As has already been said and established, bullet design has superseded the need for high velocity to achieve reliable (to a pont) expansion.
Saying a thing, even saying it repeatedly does not make it true.

You say that it is established, but you have not provided any evidence indicating that bullet design has superceded the need for +P velocities to achieve reliable expansion. In fact, as I've pointed out, the bullet designs you listed as supposedly making +P velocities unnecessary are provided loaded to +P velocities precisely because the designers/manufactures know that those velocities provide more reliable expansion and better penetration.
Quote:
...bullet design is of PARAMOUNT importance. Everything else takes a back seat.
The most perfectly designed bullet can't do anything at all without the proper velocity, energy and momentum. The idea that you can put all your eggs in one basket simply isn't borne out by the facts. The most perfectly designed .380ACP bullet, for example, can't both expand and still pass the full FBI penetration testing because it doesn't have sufficient momentum and energy.

It takes a balance.
Quote:
All that high pressure ammo is doing is promoting excess and premature wear on your guns. That's WHY they include those warnings in the instruction manuals about using +P and +P+ ammo. If the manual has a warning, one should read and obey it.
As I've said several times, I'm not a huge fan of +P ammunition, and although I haven't said it on this thread, I'm also a huge fan of reading manuals and abiding by them. However, neither of those facts is any evidence at all that +P or +P+ does nothing but "promote excess and premature wear on guns". If that were true, no one would make it or buy it.

People are willing to put up with the risk of excess wear precisely because extra velocity provides measurable improvement in performance--both in terms of penetration and expansion--assuming proper bullet design.
Quote:
The only reason they scored the .357 Magnum so high is because there were more shootings with it than any other caliber AT THE TIME.
That's completely false.

For one thing it is not true that the M&S figures included more shootings involving the .357Mag than any other calibers. In fact, the M&S figures included nearly TWICE the number of .38Spl shootings as .357Magnum shootings.

Second, if the number of shootings related to the final M&S scoring then 9mm and the .357Mag should have come out virtually identical since they had very similar numbers of figures included in the data set (about 1450). Of course they weren't scored the same at all.

The entire idea that the scoring had anything to do with how many shootings represented a particular caliber in the data set is bogus. The scoring was done by calculating a percentage of the total shootings in a general category that met the M&S criteria.

How many shootings it was involved with had no bearing on the scoring. Percentages are not based on how many total data points are in a general category, they are based on the ratio of a particular data set to the total number of data points that contain the particular data set.

I'm not going to defend the M&S numbers, but it's totally false to state that the reason the .357Mag was scored so high is that it showed up more often in the shootings than other calibers.

This is an example of why you're getting rather "lively" responses. It appears that a good portion of what you're posting here you're either making up as you go along or you're repeating things that you've heard but never fact-checked.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old July 7, 2012, 02:20 AM   #149
Sport45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 1999
Location: Too close to Houston
Posts: 4,050
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deputy276
Let me take you back in the Peabody Wayback machine to the days of the Old West. Or if you prefer, to the cemetaries in the Old West. Now count how many graves are occupied by folks who were shot with the .44/40 and .45 Long Colt. Quite a few.
True, but if medical care then was the same as medical care now, many of those same souls might have died of old age.

Graveyards of that time were filled with many that succumbed to injury or ailments that would not be considered life-threatening today.
__________________
Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.
Sport45 is offline  
Old July 7, 2012, 04:57 AM   #150
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,825
You wanna talk more about the .38 S&W Special or other cartridges?

Mind you, if we talk about the .38 special, we're talking about revolvers, usually. There have been some good .38 special target autos, though I don't think any are in production now. But that's something a .38 special is good for: target shooting. I realize target shooting isn't particularly exciting, which is why people go skateboarding, skydiving and driving. But it is a lot of fun, sort of relaxing if you aren't competing and somehow there seems to be a lot more to it than doing the same with a .22. A .22 is for plinking, you know, to keep yourself in good form for shooting .38s.

There are other things the .38 special is good at (or for). It is a handloader's delight. Of course, once you start reloading, it quickly becomes a case of shooting justify the reloading. The late Dean Grennell must have written more about the .38 special than any other cartridge but that's just a guess. There's more that you can do with a .38 special, I think, and still have fun with than just about any other cartridge, unless you are looking to invent a load that surpasses the .44 magnum but that's in a different class. But you might have a lot of fun fooling around with 200-grain bullets, if you can find a mold to make them with.

Another thing the .38 special still has a use for is in small frame revolvers. Oh, I know the .357 can be had in a J-frame but if you thought a Colt Officer's ACP was a handful in .45 ACP, what must a J-frame be like? Even a 4-inch barrel K-frame has more blast than I care to experience on a regular basis, although to be honest, the "kick" isn't bad. I also know that M&S stated that the .38 wasn't as effective when fired from a 2-inch barrel but I doubt anyone would expect it to be. But would you choose a .22 over a .38 in a pocket revolver? For some reason lots of people seem to have more faith in a .22 than anything else. With faith you can move mountains.

Speaking of cartridges, why do the major cartridge companies not produce loads like the famous Buffalo Bore company?
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
.38 , ammo

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14647 seconds with 7 queries