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Old July 5, 2012, 03:05 PM   #26
Tickling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayosligo.
Sometime back a few years there was some outrage that physicians were asking patients during regular check ups if they had firearms and did they store them safely.
As a member of the medical community I have mixed feelings about the scope and concept of universal healthcare, however I would like to interject a comment on the above post.

I recently graduated a year ago as a nurse, and we were taught that anytime children were admitted (for any reason) and it was found that the parents owned firearms, we were legally obligated to report it to a social worker. Never explored it further, and I don't work in pediatrics so I couldn't tell you how it works. But that is what we were taught to do.

Just something to think about.

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Old July 5, 2012, 03:52 PM   #27
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Eh, don't know what state you live in but I don't believe there is any state in the union that requires that. That would be lawsuit city. Just look at what happened to the doctors in Florida that tried similar bs.
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Old July 5, 2012, 03:53 PM   #28
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Physicians asking patients about guns is not the topic here.

Let's not get sidetracked into issues that currently have no bearing on the ACA or the decision by SCOTUS.
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Old July 5, 2012, 03:57 PM   #29
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Having reached the conclusion that the act was constitutional, CJ Roberts did not have to reach to the question of severabilty.

What CJ Roberts did not do was to decide that the tax was a constitutional tax, as defined. That was not necessary to the decision.

That leaves open the question of whether this is a direct tax, in direct violation of the taxing powers of Congress.
So in theory, this should leave the door open for future litigation on whether or not the TAX is legal? One of these days someone is going to have to write a law that is actually easy to understand.
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Old July 5, 2012, 04:01 PM   #30
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I remember it quite clearly as it struck me as odd, it was a class on the legal aspects of nursing, which we had to take before we could set foot in a hospital. It covered HIPPA, torts and the like.

That was Washington, and it popped up my final year in Oregon during my rotation on Peds. But who knows, I suppose the instructors could have told us anything they wanted

But this is starting to get off topic.
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Old July 5, 2012, 04:07 PM   #31
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Makes me wonder what the citizens of Kennesaw GA think.

They've required a handgun for each head of household since 1982 (City Ordinance).

http://www.rense.com/general9/gunlaw.htm

The law contains no clause addressing punishment for violating the law. If convicted, City Clerk Diane Coker said punishment would be determined by the general penalty clause of the Kennesaw Code Ordinance - probably a fine of about $100.

(corrected date).

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Old July 5, 2012, 04:40 PM   #32
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The Kennesaw ordinance has never been enforced.

It is also off topic.
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Old July 5, 2012, 10:51 PM   #33
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There is a new Doctors office opening near my parents soon that is CASH only, if you have insurance, its up to you to file it, after you pay cash at the doctors office for services rendered...

I am due for a physical, and called another doctors office here, and was told that depending on when I wanted my appointment, I may have to pay, then possibly file for the insurance claim myself afterwards...

In the past, it was go to the office, present the health insurance card, and pay the co-pay and the doctors office would take care of filing the proper paperwork for the claim under health insurance. Now it seems to be going to, pay cash, here is your reciept if you want to file under your insurance. That is changing here now. It may be in other areas.

From what I can gather, this is an attempt at trying to get people to buy insurance, but yet, when the person files the claim for coverage, it will probably be denied the first time or two, at least, and if a person persists, maybe, just maybe, it will be covered. The doctors offices are cutting back, and there is no reason to believe that the insurance companies wont cut back as well. Why? The longer it takes for someone to file a claim and recieve payment, the more chance there is for someone to give up, and the insurance doesnt have to pay, hence the insurance makes more money.

I dont see this as a "single payer" type system. I see it more as a cash rules type system. If you have the cash, you can have the doctors visit, otherwise, just wait and see on the insurance claim if they approve you going to the doctor. If you dont have the money or insuarance, I guess there is always the ER...

Just my thoughts...

As far as the tax issue goes... If someone is required to buy a product, but may not get results from the product (such as being denied by health insurance), why should they be required to buy it, but if they dont they get taxed anyway?

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Old July 6, 2012, 12:13 AM   #34
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I have this burning question that has bothered me from the outset of the ruling.

The legislation does not call the penalty a tax. The administration denied it was a tax. Later they started calling it a tax. The Solicitor General argued before the SCotUS that it was a tax. Buying into that argument, the SCotUS ruled that it was, indeed, a tax.

The administration is now saying that it is not a tax and never was a tax.

So my question is this: Did the Solicitor General perjure himself before the Supreme Court?
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Old July 6, 2012, 03:50 AM   #35
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He was not acting as a witness under oath so I would say he didn't commit perjury.

The Act has 13,000 pages. When this takes full effect in 2014 I predict there will be a lot of disappointed folks that were hoping for free insurance but do not get it. Now there is no penalty for the states to not increase Medicare and set up the exchanges. There will be howls of indignation when a large family has to pay the tax and policy prices increase instead of decreasing as promised. If you think waiting times are long be prepared to wait longer. This legislation was cobbled together for political expediency not for efficiency.
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Old July 6, 2012, 08:46 AM   #36
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As P.J. O'Rourke said back in the Hillarycare days "If you think health care is expensive now, wait 'til it's free."
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm.

"Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare

"Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed"
-- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey
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Old July 6, 2012, 09:06 AM   #37
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I want to point out that the proper name for the bill is the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA). ACA is also used.

Silly nicknames like "Obamacare" and "Hillarycare" really don't contribute to intelligent discussion.
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Old July 6, 2012, 09:12 AM   #38
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Well we can hardly do worse than we're already doing. Here's a chart that shows how much various countries spend per capita on health care, as well as what they get for their money in terms of average number of doctor visits per year and average life expectancy:



Besides, we're already paying the healthcare costs for the uninsured anyway. Hospitals charge uninsured or self-paying patients 2-3X what they charge insured patients for the same procedures/treatment. And when the patients can't pay, the hospitals don't just write it off as an operating loss - in the case of public hospitals at least, they recover the shortfall from taxes.

At least with more people insured, they'll have the weight of an insurance company behind them to negotiate prices, and we should start seeing more people being charged the same amount of money for the same care, instead of the self-payers getting soaked by the hospitals.
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Old July 6, 2012, 09:59 AM   #39
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Interesting chart, ScottRiqui, but the fact that both countries with red lines have populations at least Five fold the population of the countries with blue lines (save maybe Japan) jumps out at me as being very biased.
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Old July 6, 2012, 10:14 AM   #40
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True - I wish there were a way to compare multiple countries that were the same in every respect except for their healthcare system, but sadly that's not possible. There aren't very many countries in the "300 Million Club", so you either work with the statistics you have or you throw up your hands and say "nothing in the rest of the world is applicable to us - we're too big".

You can find the same basic chart with different countries displayed - some use the top 20 countries in term of life expectancy, for example. We don't fare too well in that one, either.
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Old July 6, 2012, 10:17 AM   #41
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I wonder where Russia and China fall if plotted on this chart? They are the two countries with the largest "universal systems" and also large populations. It is interesting they are absent.
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Old July 6, 2012, 10:29 AM   #42
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This chart has the expenditures for both China and Russia. I don't know where to find the average number of annual doctor visits, but the life expectancy for Russia is 70.3 and China is 73.0. That will allow you to at least plot their lines, although not the thickness of the lines.

In both cases, they're spending a lot less on healthcare (both in terms of per-capita dollars and as a percentage of GDP), but they don't have our life expectancy, either.
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Old July 6, 2012, 10:44 AM   #43
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Interesting! It appears we have a population problem, not a healthcare problem - when thinking in terms of life expectancy! My guns will out live me, this I know for a fact!
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Old July 6, 2012, 11:15 AM   #44
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"Silly nicknames like "Obamacare" and "Hillarycare" really don't contribute to intelligent discussion."

Common terminology used on liberal and conservative sites, newspapers, and news programs. Not being used here as a disparagement. Don't read more into it than is intended.

We use "silly" nicknames here all of the time like "wheelgun", and "spray and pray", etc.
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm.

"Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare

"Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed"
-- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey
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Old July 6, 2012, 11:29 AM   #45
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A couple of points that may be obvious:

1. Very few people would know what the public safety and recreational firearms use protection act of 1994 is, but when identified by the colloquial "Clinton AWB", more people would understand what is meant.

2. The Sup Ct decision on the ACA does not pertain to average life span, or whether greater federal involvement in medical insurance is a generally good idea.

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Old July 6, 2012, 01:00 PM   #46
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Quote:
Very few people would know what the public safety and recreational firearms use protection act of 1994 is, but when identified by the colloquial "Clinton AWB", more people would understand what is meant.
You've got a point. However, we can call it the Assault Weapon(s) Ban without mentioning Clinton's name, so it's a little different.

Plus, "ACA" is easier to type and remember than...um, PSRFUPA.
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Old July 6, 2012, 02:02 PM   #47
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You're excused.

What I fear is that the precedent that has been set will roll over onto both parties and I am sure they simply cannot wait to get both front feet in the trough. This is a goldmine for them and Lord knows what they will do with it.

Yes, there may be those who will attempt to enact a negative tax prohibition statute; but how far does anyone here think that will go?
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm.

"Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare

"Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed"
-- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey
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Old July 6, 2012, 04:21 PM   #48
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If you are a business and you do absolutely ANY business with the federal government then you have to comply with all of their requirements for their contractors.

You're dreaming if you think this won't apply to health care as well - once costs start to rise, all sorts of bean counters are going to start looking at "risk factors".

Fast food, motorcycles, rock climbing, boating, fireworks, football, and of course, our favorite hobby - nothing will escape their notice.

Just you wait.
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Old July 6, 2012, 08:05 PM   #49
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Scott as far as statistics go if you are not comparing apples to apples you just have numbers that are interesting. We do the same thing when we compare one gun to another but really there are so many differences you really cannot say that "this gun" is better than "that gun" because there are so many variables that are considered as well as purpose, need, user etc.

The real problem is the fact that this a health insurance/funding bill. Healthcare is not the problem. Healthcare exists. The problem is the shell gave created by insurance companies, hospitals, attorneys and accountants. Insurance by its purpose is a bet against yourself and there isn't way to actuate the cost of health. This creates an accounting nightmare for a business which at its route has always been ponzi-like. All insurances by nature are a bet against yourself. You respect something bad to happen. The insurance company acts as the casino house knowing that most people will pay in and never use. This works great for everything except human health. The end result is that you run out of money. What the stats don't show us wait time and how often an accountant or lawyer or bureaucrat determines whether or not procedures were allowed or accepted. This gets back to firearms being thrown into the actuarial equation. It does not look promising for fun owners.


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Old July 6, 2012, 08:12 PM   #50
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Please excuse my inability to type and auto correct. Makes for a humorous read.


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