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Old June 26, 2012, 04:54 PM   #1
THORN74
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30-06 for m1 garand

Hey all. Been loading pistol ammo on my lnl-ap for about 6 months now. Going very well got my loads set for 45auto and 40s&w.

Now that I have my first m1 garand from cmp, I am looking to load for it. Got about 100 cases that were mil-surp fired by me, just cleaned them. I have my dies and a load data I want to try. Aside from buying the wrong primers (bought large rifle magnum by mistake) I think I'm ready to try loading for these.


This is the first rifle round I'm going to try, and I'm looking for, any advise/pitfalls to avoid.

Using 150gr fmj-bt from hornady, Imr4895, unknown primers (like I said I bought the wrong ones), brass is hxp (71,77,73) from cmp.

Than guys

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Old June 26, 2012, 05:22 PM   #2
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You may want to ask what kind of primer again; soft ones have a tendency to slam fire if my "stuff I read on the net" memory serves correctly. CCI tends to be harder, thus less likely to do this. Aside from that, I think watching your OAL is the next biggest concern.

I may be totally wrong; just had to feed my need to hit the submit reply button.
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Old June 26, 2012, 05:48 PM   #3
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THORN74 welcome to an entire new world.

The Garand is grand. The '06 is the grand daddy of them all (not actually but figuratively).

Your Garand is a wonderful machine. It was built for a now non-existing round and adjusted to function with the 30.06 round.

If you treat it right, it will do the same for you.

First off, keep your loads consistent and well away frorm the maximum. Your choice of 150 grains is excellent, I wouldn't go any heaver than the 168s. (I only use 147-150 grain bullets) Oh, they will work but it is hard on the operating rod. Your choice of IMR4895 is good. I use H4895 and it is very close in the burn rate.

Next up is the brass you reported on. Make certain that if it has 'crimped' primers that the 'crimp' is removed before trying to prime. I have never had a 'slam fire' with an Garands, but then I only use CCI primers.

Run a search on the M1 Garand online and fine the places to grease, not oil, and the places to oil. It is not a difficult process to get done.

I like mine and baby them. I have the utmost trust that each will serve me well.

Enjoy and be safe,

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Old June 26, 2012, 06:10 PM   #4
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yeah cabelas was out of the CCI primers, so i picked up the winchester. it wasnt untill i got home i realized they were magnum, so they are going back.... i was at my LGS the other day and they had CCI #34 (which i am told is the best for this situation) i though they were on the high side $$ but i guess i will pick them up anyway.

just been checking the cleaned brass, maxcase lenght seems fine my book lists 2.494, and im around 2.485 for most

just need to swap the primers.
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Old June 26, 2012, 06:23 PM   #5
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I just loaded 8 rounds for my Garand using H4895 (47.5 grains). The primers I selected were Winchester large rifle, read that they are almost as hard as mil primers. As far as the CCI #34 primers they are magnums as well.
I haven't shot any of my 8 rounds yet so I can't offer any advise based on experience, but good luck with your efforts.

You might find interesting. http://www.alabamaservicerifleteam.com/id17.html
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Old June 26, 2012, 07:33 PM   #6
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No need to start with less than 45 grains of IMR 4895 with Hornady's 150 FMJ bullet. A load using 46 -48 grains works fine in the Garand. I use RP 9 1/2 primers with my loads at 47 grains in RP, Win, and HXP brass. I use my case mouth deburr tool to remove the stake marks of the primer crimp on HXP brass. Could use a cordless drill too. Watch for extractor caused bent rims. I file any bent rims flat before sizing. The Garand is rough on brass. Hornady recommends 3.185" overall length. They used to say 3.260 with the same bullet but at that length the cannelure is just forward of the case mouth. I've shot them at both lengths in my rifles. Garand chambers can be on the long side of spec and if you full length size pushing the shoulder back to "zero" every time then you are going to stretch your brass too much. A case gauge to adjust your sizing die to only push the shoulder back a measured amount will extend the life of your brass and help prevent the possibility of case separations. Make sure primers are seated flush or below. Have fun with your new-OLD Garand. Like mentioned, Garands require grease in the right places.
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Old June 26, 2012, 08:17 PM   #7
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I just have one suggestion.

Once you get a good load established, please let the younger generation try out your Garand at the range. I lost count how many kids/teens have watched with fascination as I launch bullets to the 400 yard berm and ask if they'd like to do the same. The grin after the PING is priceless, and they get to keep the clip.
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Old June 26, 2012, 08:26 PM   #8
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THORN74,

Pay attention to what these guys are saying, sound like they 'have been there and done that'. Just don't get all wound up in the little stuff, shooting a Garand is fun in it's self.

Consistent, moderate loads, lub properly, clean properly, watch the web for the stretch ring [the brass] (or just use a feeler to see if it is getting ruff), seat to the canalure and keep the brass short and bullets set out. Sound like a lot to do but it quickly becomes a quick glance or feel.

Be safe and enjoy,

OSOK
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Old June 26, 2012, 08:54 PM   #9
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Quote:
I just loaded 8 rounds for my Garand using H4895 (47.5 grains).
Just FYI. The garand being a gas gun is designed to operate in a specific range of pressures. The top end of which is significantly lower than the 30-06 of today. You have to remember that the great powders we have today are more powerful than what they had when the garand was designed and built. Thats why some ammo MFG's actualy have loadings specifically for M1 garands, because they may not function well with todays hunting loads, which are too hot for it. A .308 today is as powerfull as a 30-06 was back when the garand was in service, so a good rule of thumb is to keep your velocities below .308 levels.

Hornadys current manual has a section devoted just to the M1 garand, and for a 150gr bullet using H 4895, it lists a starting load of 43.2gr=2400fps, 44.8gr=2500fps, with a MAX load of 46.4gr-2600FPS..... Your loads are a bit hot for a garand....
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Old June 26, 2012, 09:45 PM   #10
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It is generally recommended to load between 147-173gr bullets for the M1/M14 using standard jacketed bullet loads.

A powder in the suitable burn rate range for the action of this type of semi auto gas rifle such as IMR 4895, H4895, AA 2495, BL C2, H335, Win 748, IMR 4064 (and there are others).


A good example would be the Sierra Matchking HPBT .308" 168gr with IMR 4895 powder.

I usually use Winchester Large Rifle or Winchester Large Rifle Magnum primers with IMR 4895 and 150gr FMJ or 150gr SP in both my M1 Garand 30-06 loads and my M-14 308/7.62 loads. I choose to uniform primer pockets and of course always check that primers are fully seated.

You might find you need to remove the crimps from your milspec brass before you can seat new primers. There are pocket reamers, swagers or even a drill bit or case mouth debur tool that will do this.
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Old June 27, 2012, 05:48 AM   #11
THORN74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hk33ka1 View Post
It is generally recommended to load between 147-173gr bullets for the M1/M14 using standard jacketed bullet loads.

A powder in the suitable burn rate range for the action of this type of semi auto gas rifle such as IMR 4895, H4895, AA 2495, BL C2, H335, Win 748, IMR 4064 (and there are others).


A good example would be the Sierra Matchking HPBT .308" 168gr with IMR 4895 powder.

I usually use Winchester Large Rifle or Winchester Large Rifle Magnum primers with IMR 4895 and 150gr FMJ or 150gr SP in both my M1 Garand 30-06 loads and my M-14 308/7.62 loads. I choose to uniform primer pockets and of course always check that primers are fully seated.
So large rifle magnum primers are OK to use? I bought Winchester LRM by mistake and was going to return them.... but ur saying they are useable?


I'm going to try several diff bullet weights, eventually o am hoping to find one bullet for my m1 and m14 to share. I hope

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Old June 27, 2012, 07:05 AM   #12
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If you're going to use that HXP brass, you'll probably find that you don't need to deliberately remove the very small dimple crimps around the primer. YMMV, but I've been able to just press new primers in, which will automatically remove the dimples.

I tried various 150-155gr. FMJ-BT, Match HPBT and found that while the Match bullets did give a bit better accuracy, the Hornady FMJ-BT was more than accurate enough for our local High Power matches at 200yds. If you plan to shoot much further than that in matches, most seem to be going with heavier ones.

I've found the following load to be the most accurate for me, and comes pretty close to standard M2 ball ammo.

HXP brass - trim to 2.485
Win WLR primer
Hornady 150FMJ-BT bullet
H4895 powder
46.5grains
COAL - 3.275

You'll see that seating to this over-all length will still leave the crimp groove fully exposed, but I don't crimp my rounds at all and haven't had a problem.
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Old June 27, 2012, 04:47 PM   #13
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THORN74,

I think we are getting a little beyond your original question. But, it is your thread.

Large sized primers are the same size. They vary in how hard the cup is and how much fire is spit out. Some have 2 legs, some have 3 and I don't care, they work.

Yes you can use Mag primers in a Garand loading with the components you stated you have. Usually they are more expensive, so why if the powder doesn't need the added ignition? And powder that should have Mag primers probably will not be in the proper power curve range.

But, Mag primers are hotter than the standards, so you will have to compensate for that. How do you do that? Don't worry about it, just don't switch back and forth. Knowing that the primer is 'hotter' or 'cooler' in the back of your mind, build your loading as normal. Start at or near the bottom/starting loading listed in a known/trusted loading source and work up a little at a time till you get what you need and want. Don't look for the high velocities. Look for nice smooth loads that hit what you are shooting at. Remember, if/when you switch, you will/should build the load again.

My suggestion is to work up a load that runs well in YOUR Garand and stick with it. Pick components that are standardized and will be around for a long time. 4895s in both flavors and 150 grain bullets and major brand primers have been and should be around for a long time to come.

Later on when your are comfortable with your standard loading, you may try some new things. Lighter bullets (I've never had much luck with bullets lighter than 130 grains out of my Garands but I have an 03A3 that loves 110 grain VMax bullets) and some testing with bullets up to 168 grains for longer shots. Other powders in the same burning curve and brands of primers. Some very minor changes can make some big changes in accuracy.

147-150 grain bullets share quite well between the Garand and the M1A/M14.

Don't get in a hurry and enjoy,

OSOK
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Old June 27, 2012, 10:29 PM   #14
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I was gonna start a new thread, but I think I'll piggyback on this one; I don't think it's a hijack. Would this be an OK bullet for reloading for a Garand? http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/...roductId/12613



The "dealer" price is even better, if you have a FFL or a business license.

The flat base is good, and the weight is about right, I just don't know about the soft tip. (I don't think the tip hits anything when it chambers, but not sure)

I'll be using CCI #34 primers, and Reloder-12 or AA2495 or AA2520 powder (they are all the right burn rate). Actually, I will probably try all three, but when I run out of Rel-12 I can't get any more.
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Old June 27, 2012, 10:35 PM   #15
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Here's a useful link for Thorn: http://masterpostemple.bravepages.com/M1load.htm
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Old June 27, 2012, 10:53 PM   #16
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You might do better with a small base die ! That's true of many semi-autos.
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Old June 28, 2012, 12:05 AM   #17
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Quote:
The flat base is good, and the weight is about right, I just don't know about the soft tip. (I don't think the tip hits anything when it chambers, but not sure)

I'll be using CCI #34 primers, and Reloder-12 or AA2495 or AA2520 powder (they are all the right burn rate). Actually, I will probably try all three, but when I run out of Rel-12 I can't get any more.
No the tip doesnt matter, those should work fine. My hornady manual only lists RL-12 of the 3 you listed for M1 Garand loads. Assuming 150gr bullets, it shows 42.3-45.3gr for 2400-2600fps.
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Old June 28, 2012, 08:09 AM   #18
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The Garand has a free floating firing pin, like this M1 carbine. The M1 Carbine and the M1 Garand have a firing pin retraction cam. This cam pulls the firing pin back during extraction. It also has limited utility as a safety device, but is easily defeated by tight or long rounds. If your round was smaller than the chamber the odds would will be in your favor to have an in battery slamfire.

Only at final cam down is the firing pin retracted. Up to then the firing pin is totally free floating and tapping the heck out of the primer.

This is a M1 Carbine firing pin retraction cam.




This is the M1 Garand firing pin retraction cam they are functionally identical, just the carbine is easier to visually understand.





This is a M1 Garand receiver and the firing pin is fully forward and just touching the firing pin retraction cam. As you can see there is only thousand's of an inch of forward movement left in bolt cam down and yet the firing pin is sticking out about 0.064" from the bolt face.




This where out of battery slamfires occur.

If the bolt has to stop here to crunch fit a long case or a fat case that firing pin is rebounding off the back of the primer at its highest velocity in its forward travel.

That is why it is important to small base size cases used in these rifles and to set up the dies with a case gage and size to gage minimum. (Assuming you don’t know the headspace of your chamber, if you do, always be 0.002 to 0.003” less) You want the bolt to close without resistance. This will reduce the risk of an out of battery slamfire.





There are some who say small base dies are not needed in these rifles, the Gunwriter Mike Venturino has been one. For years he has been saying in print that only standard sizing dies are need. But in the July 2012 issue of Guns Magazine, he is testing an M1a and a AR10 and his reloads are too tight. I find it humorous to read of him beating the bolts open with scrap lumber. Ha, Ha.

If you attempt to small base size with a spray on lube you will stick the case in the die. I recommend RCBS water soluble or Imperial Sizing wax. These are excellent lubes.


For these rifles it is safety critical to ream primer pockets to depth, seat the primers by hand, and verify that all of the primers are below the primer pocket. There is a chance that a cocked primer, with the anvil firmly seated on something, will cause a primer initiated slamfire. A high primer can cause a slamfire but only if the anvil is firmly seated. High primers are one of the most common cause of misfires because the primer won't fire unless the anvil is seated and is pushed up into the primer cake. However, given a shallow pocket it is theoretically possible that high primers could have done this.

Just examine the back of the ammunition you have and see if there are high or cocked primers.

It is also safety critical to use the least sensitive primer around because these rifles will slamfire in battery or worse, out of battery, given a sensitive enough primer.

Federal primers are the most sensitive primer on the market and the most "slamfiring" primer in Garands. I have lots of web accounts of slamfires with Federal primers. Don’t use them. I recommend CCI #34's and Tula7.62 primers as they considered "Mil Spec" primers. Which means they are less sensitive than commercial primers, federal being the most sensitive commercial primer on the market

When firing single shot, use a SLED. Do not put a round in the chamber and drop the bolt. Lots of inbattery slamfires, and a few out of battery, have happened because of this. You want to slow the bolt down. When rounds feed from the clip the friction between cartridges slows the bolt a bit. You want to use a SLED as that slows the bolt a bit.

Use powders that are close to IMR 4895 in burning rate or just use IMR 4895. High port pressures are the concern. High pressures will create excessive operating rod acceleration. Reference b. recommends choosing powders that have burning rates between IMR3031 and IMR4320. This includes powders such as IMR 4064, and Winchester 748. Accurate Arms stated that AA2520, AA2495 and 2700 are their best powders for the M1 Garands. Some have noticed that AA2700 is actually a slow burning powder, listed as even slower than IMR 4350. But Accurate Arms told me, that because it is a ball powder, the pressure curve has dropped enough that port pressures are not excessive for a Garand. I believe the first choice of powders are IMR 4985, H4895, AA2495. I have used a load of 168 grain Sierra Match, 47.0 grains IMR4895, LC cases, and CCI #34 primers OAL 3.300” for years. This is a great target load, should be considered a maximum load, does not hurt a thing to cut it a grain or two, and it shoots great in my match Garands.

Tried the Tula 7.62 primers this year and they shoot well:



CCI #34 shoot great:



Check cartridges for case head separation. Gas guns are hard on brass: the bolt unlocks while there is still significant chamber pressure. So the case gets stretched on extraction. Carefully inspect cases for stretch ring marks at five reloads. They occur about .4” of an inch ahead of the base. You can verify if the cases are internally necking by inserting a bent paperclip in the case, and feeling for an edge. A number of shooters I have asked claim various case lives in the M1 or M1A. Some have case head separations about the fifth reload, others have taken their cases up to ten reloads. The useful lifetime of a case is determined by case head separations, case neck splitting, or primer pocket enlargement. When any one of these failure mechanisms happens to a case, it has exceeded its operational lifetime. In my experience, US military brass holds up better than commercial cases. But this is a broad generalization. You want to use heavy cases over light cases.

References:
a. The Mysterious Slam-Fire, American Rifleman, Oct 1983
b. Reloading for the M1 Rifle, American Rifleman, Mar 1986
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Old June 28, 2012, 11:03 AM   #19
THORN74
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OK .... thanks for the replays guys ....

I tried to take back the Winchester magnum primers to cabelas.... no returns on ammo or reloading supplies..

So the big question is CAN I use large rifle magnum primers to reload for 30-06????

I'm stuck with them now

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Old June 28, 2012, 11:45 AM   #20
chris in va
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Previous poster said you could.
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Old June 28, 2012, 09:22 PM   #21
hk33ka1
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The last couple years all I have been using is Large Rifle Primers in large primed cases incluidng .30-06 in Garand. They will work fine. As always start low on powder and work up.
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Old June 29, 2012, 12:36 AM   #22
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I have 2 garand loads, both in lake city match brass.

150 gr hornady fmj, 49 gr of imr4895, win primers.
168 gr hornady match 47 gr of imr4895, win primers.

Spend extra time to clean your primer pockets and trim your brass. Will help you avoid the slam fires. You can get away with a lot of mistakes loading for a bolt gun that can bite you with a semi auto.
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Old June 29, 2012, 01:02 AM   #23
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Thorn74,

Not only can you use magnum primers in the Garand, they are the preferred primer for the Garand. You got the right thing. As mentioned earlier, military primers are all magnum.

The reasons for the magnum primers is three-fold: First, the military feels they get better low temperature ignition with them. Second, large rifle magnum primers are sometimes a bit less sensitive than standard primers, and that can help resist slamfires in the Garand. Third, the .30-06 case is a bit large for the powder burn rates that are best for the Garand op-rod. As a result, many Garand loads have a fair amount of empty powder space left in the .30-06 case. Magnum primers make more gas than standard ones do, so when there is a lot of empty space, they do better at achieving adequate start pressure for consistent ignition. As a result, Garand loads often see less velocity spread with magnum primers because they make ignition more consistent in the presence of that extra empty space.
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Old June 29, 2012, 02:29 AM   #24
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Unclenick,

Very good points.

Be safe,

OSOK
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Old June 29, 2012, 09:05 PM   #25
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My Garand load is simple actually-
LC brass, FL sized in RCBS SB dies, crimp swaged with the RCBS primer pocket swager, cut to uniform depth with a Lyman iool; CCI 200 primer, 48.0 of WW748 or BLC2, 150 grain Hornady FMJ, medium crimp in the groove.
This load develops about 46000 cup according to the WW data booklets. This will operate your action and gives outstanding accuracy without unduly battering the op rod and action. I've shot thousands of these loads and NEVER had a slamfire or any other malfunction. I shoot the same load in my 742 with a Sierra 150 Prohunter bullet; bang, flop. venison every time.
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