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Old August 30, 2012, 12:28 PM   #151
Quizcat
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And, by the way, I don't mean for my emphatic, and sometimes lengthily written, defense of my position to offend anyone.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I enjoy defending a position that I've held concerning Taurus products, and their reputation within the forums, one that I know is contrary to the prevailing rhetoric within the forums.

I realized when I started to defend this position within the forum, that I was going to be fighting an uphill battle. Taurus bashing has taken on a life of it's own.

Because of the disproportionate bashing that goes on in the forums compared to other brands that seem to also have their own range of problems, I feel the brand is entitled to a little more "cross examination" in the court of public opinion, especially in light of my own direct positive experiences with their polymer products.

I just don't accept complaints on face value without hearing something with a little more substance as to the apparent cause of the supposed defects. And, then, once those cases are made with some kind of supporting evidence, and not just accusation, then the process of cross examination can begin to get to the whole truth.

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Old August 30, 2012, 03:21 PM   #152
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Quizcat, you've never seen a report of high rates of return from any reputable source, but only from bashers?

Hmmm.... guess you've never read any comments from Tom Servo, forum staffer, eh?

He manages a large, busy gun shop near Atlanta. He's given numbers and percentages on Taurus returns from his shop. I've seen some of the bad lock-up NIB Tauri his shop has received, back when a) I lived in that area, and b) his shop was still dealing in Taurus products. I have since moved, and they have since stopped selling most of the Taurus line-up.

His shop had NIB Taurus revolvers that had no barrel/cylinder gap. None. Binding from the outset. Impossible for QC to miss, yet they did.

His shop had NIB Taurus revolvers that were out of time. Obvious on casual inspection. Again, QC missed this.

You keep wanting to turn this into non-specific complaints from know-nothing bashers; you keep wanting to discredit people.

I begin to suspect you are an employee or a stockholder of the brand.
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Old August 30, 2012, 03:31 PM   #153
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I could just as easily level unsubstantiated charges that you are affiliated with a competitor to Taurus, MLEAKE. But, accusations are diversionary and meaningless.

I will state for a SECOND TIME, for the record, I have NO AFFILIATION whatsoever with Taurus, and I do not own any of their stock, nor am I invested in their enterprise in any way.

Taurus has been in the firearms business almost as long as I can remember, and most of the time they manufactured junk.

I have qualified by comments with respect to their quality being on par with other manufacturers, and limited my comments to product manufactured during the last five years, polymer only. You have referenced revolvers in your prior post, and I have specifically limited my assessment to polymer firearms.

You sited one gun shop's claims. Please advise which year those claims were published, and reference them here. I will gladly read them over, and meticulously evaluate the degree to which they can be cross examined and made applicable to impeach my current assessment of Taurus' quality of polymer handguns.

As I said before, I believe many criticisms of Taurus originated from problems that occurred before the period that I feel Taurus got their act together. I am simply not going to leave those criticisms unchallenged just because the political correctness of the forum seems to be in favor of bashing Taurus.

That doesn't mean their customers will never, ever have problems, or that some haven't had a legitimate problem in the relatively recent past. Nor does it mean that I disbelieve a posters comments that they had issues. I am not discrediting anyone that posts about something they believe is a defect or complaint, provided it can be examined.

A manufacturer that once had issues has turned the corner, IMHO, ie: during the last five years. But, because there is so much active unsubstantiated, slanted bias within some of the forums, potential shooters that would have otherwise considered Taurus are totally frightened away.

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Old August 30, 2012, 04:39 PM   #154
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The shoddy quality Tauri I saw at that shop were 2009-2010 models. The shop discontinued most Taurus products in late 2010 or early 2011. So much for the past five years...

Meanwhile, I have seen some of the problem revolvers, but have only heard about the problem polymer autos. I know the Milennium was a model that caused them serious warranty return issues.

I don't care about political correctness. I care about people pretending problems are imaginary, or primarily the fault of incompetent shooters, when the evidence points to spotty QC and poor CS.
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Old August 30, 2012, 09:34 PM   #155
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I don't expect you to evaluate them on anything but your own second hand preconceived biases. The evidence you claim to point to isn't apparently through any direct experience you have with Taurus, and now your focus is upon the POLYMER HANDGUNS, and specifically on the Millennium Pro, the exact model I have direct experience with. But, your attempts at besmirching Taurus were formerly with a broad brush stroke, and included everything they manufacture.

Only after I reminded you that the polymer handguns were the subject of this debate, you are now bent on insisting that Taurus polymer handguns, and the Millennium Pro specifically, are garbage. But, your accusations aren't quantifiable, or qualified with any engineering corroboration. They are hear-say versus my own 40 years of direct personal experience with all brands, including Taurus.

With you, my talking points are simply falling on deaf ears, and my opinions based on direct experience with the product, and Taurus customer service, are ridiculed as some kind of disingenuous conspiracy to improve the image of Taurus for some self serving reason.

I have no hidden agenda, only to report my direct experience. I resist the extraordinary pressure to march in lockstep with the bashers, when I have direct experience that contradicts the notion that all handguns Taurus manufactures are pieces of crap.

I give up on you...Good luck with the brands you choose, and have a nice life. I'm running out of energy repeating my talking points in an effort to penetrate the rhetoric.

That should put to rest any accusation that I am somehow a shill for Taurus, and not legitimately attempting to report my direct experience so others will get a fresh perspective.

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Old August 30, 2012, 11:19 PM   #156
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Reputations take a long time to build . . or to repair. We're unlikely to be given actual numbers from the manufacturers on what their rate of returns are, how quickly they are repaired by the factory, and how satisfied the customer rates that experience. All our statements are therefore very limited - to our own experience. And once a reputation is tarnished, it isn't easy to change.

It cannot be denied that questioning of the quality of Taurus products is widespread among shooters, and not just to this forum. If the company has drastically improved . . . it would seem that theyve not gotten the word out very effectively.

I contrast this to Charter Arms. I intend to buy one of their new Bulldogs in 44 Special. It offers me something unique - a compact, lightweight snub nosed revolver in a chambering I am very fond of. (Smaller/lighter than the Taurus & cheaper.) Under old managment, Charter had problems with their guns produced in certain years. But, this predates my interest and I have no experience with those guns. I checked out a new Bulldog at a shop and I liked the trigger; it actually surprised me given its price. Fit and finish were also a pleasant surprise. I'm willing to give Charter Arms a chance (being US made doesnt hurt either - we need to make things again).
But if I get this gun and it starts falling apart and I have problems with it that aren't quickly handled by the manufacturer - that will be the end of it. Theyre not likely to get another shot at my money for a very long time.

Manufacturers make or break their reputations. They cannot blame their customers for that.
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Old August 30, 2012, 11:55 PM   #157
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Where exactly is the "preconceived bias" in actually seeing poorly assembled NIB guns?

Where exactly is the preconceived bias in knowing dealers who won't carry products because of repeated issues?

Just because you would like to limit the discussion to your one handgun that works wonderfully does not mean that I have to play that game.

I guess you think people shouldn't use Consumer Reports when looking at cars, or AngiesList when hiring plumbers, as those are all just secondhand, preconceived bias...

And 40 years experience with firearms... Wow, I have only been shooting for 30 years; how could I question what you say?
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Old August 31, 2012, 07:22 AM   #158
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I just can't actively participate in promoting the notion that Taurus polymers are a total POS on the forums, when my direct experience with it has been just the opposite.

I am open to accepting any complaints that can also be cross examined with respect to cause and effect of those supposed defects, no problem. But, I have yet to see even one complaint presented in that manner concerning the polymers, with the exception of the one gentleman that had the same issue I had with respect to our thumbs hitting the mag release button.

That is a cause and effect analysis. But, as I said, I do not consider the PT140 a POS just because my own grip releases the mag release button during the course of fire. I accept the Gentleman's assessment that for him it's not acceptable. His analysis was cause and effect, and I respect his assessment, and his final decision to get rid of it for that reason.

Some have represented that they had defects with respect to some of the revolvers they purchased, and in your own case you qualified your comments with cause evidence, and effect, had they attempted to be fired due to their being no gap between the cylinder and the breach, would have been obvious, for example. And, you must admit, I did not dispute your criticism of their revolvers, did I?

I fully accepted your analysis of the revolvers you saw because your evidence is not merely a report of the "effects" with no causal relationship. If you attempted to fire those revolvers, and they blew your hand off, and you posted that Taurus revolvers are a POS because they blew my hand off, that would be a useless review of their product from a cause and effect perspective.

Postings with "EFFECT" are mostly what I see in the forums concerning the polymer products from Taurus, no "cause" analysis, which leaves shooter competency in question with regard to complaints being shooter induced. Until I see cause and effect analysis, and can cross examine it, as well as shooter competency, then I can only relate to my own stellar experiences with the PT140 polymer.

If you go all the way back to the beginning, you'll see that my posting the photos of the internal mechanisms revealed by intention to solicit a cause and effect relationship between different brands of polymers, and later, to solicit cause and effect analysis of Taurus' polymers compared to all the rest.

What makes me very suspicious for example is that I can find just as many complaints about the M&P40s, for example, in the forums, yet there is not the same level of almost what sometimes seems like a conspiratorial effort to besmirch Taurus polymers for the very same criticisms, if not a greater number of criticisms, even with respect to other polymer models that are being offered on the market by more expensive manufacturers.

I contend that this disproportionate criticism is the overflow endured by Taurus from perhaps a greater quality control issue with other models. I don't dispute that. But, if you look back at my original comments, you'll find that I've been very specific about wanting to focus on the polymers, and their level of quality, performance, etc...

You want to talk about Taurus' other products, ones that haven't been the subject of my original comments here, I have no quarrel with that. I haven't commented on their other products other than to hold a personal opinion that Taurus just may be turning the corner.

When someone comments on their experiences with the PT22 or PT25 for example, you'll notice that my comments do not dispute their experience, but solicit more information, not in an effort to contradict the commentator's post, but in an effort to fully understand the CAUSE and effect of the poster's supposed defect issues.

But, it is interesting that there seems to be a majority of shooters that actually like the PT-22s and PT25's, which are made in the Florida factory, which is an absolutely "state of the art," fully automated, ISO certified facility. The PT140 comes out of Brazil, and I've had no problems with it either...So, I really haven't any evidence that the polymers or the PT-22s and PT25s have much of a problem with respect to quality or QC, as it relates to plant location.

When I say that I do not accept some of the criticisms on face value, I am not intending to besmirch the commentator's comments. I am simply interested in hearing a more detailed analysis of their issues than to merely hear that "this model is a POS because it blew my hand off." (ie: FTF, FTE, etc...)

And, what is more important to me, is NOT to develop a "preconceived notion" based on accusation without "cause and effect" to back up the accusation that Taurus' entire product offering are PcsOS solely based on "effect" alone.

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Old August 31, 2012, 09:18 AM   #159
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If you wish to keep the conversation solely focused on one model of Taurus, which is a polymer semi-auto, then you need to start a thread in the semi-auto forum. This is the General Handgun forum.

With regard to Taurus polymers, I know a lot of people like the PT-22 and PT-25, assuming they use very specific ammo types in the PT-22. My issue with the PT-22 is not so much based on ammo sensitivity (though the Beretta on which it is based is not so sensitive), but on the latch mechanism for the tip-up barrel. The ones I tried out in the store (two of them) were so stiff that to close them required a lot of force - which resulted in my finding the heel of my left hand in front of the muzzle.

Luckily, I was testing this with an empty pistol, as the gun shop manager (not my friend's shop; this one is another pretty busy one, about seven miles from his shop - so this was a different gun shop manager) had warned me to expect some issues of this nature. (My wife and I were checking out the PT-22 and PT-25 as possible pistols for my mother-in-law, who has arthritis in her hands... some people suggested the tip-up barrel might be good for her. Based on my experience with those two pistols, I disagree very strongly.)

A friend of mine has the .25 Beretta. It is easy to latch.

I don't know if these two Tauri were unusual, but both a PT-22 and a PT-25, NIB, did the same thing; and the store manager told me that was normal in the pistols that had come into his shop.

Things can look really good, or even be based on really great ideas, but sometimes the execution can have all sorts of problems. (For example, look up the Eclipse 500 very light jet; I have a few hundred hours in those; failure rate on check rides for pilots was pushing 75%, and the few of us who could get through it in one go had diverse backgrounds in aviation. The thing could fly pretty well, but had a lot of limitations that a jet should not have.)

I don't care how pretty a thing looks, or how good the ideas on which it is based may be. I care about how it actually performs intended functions.

And I don't buy major equipment without doing my research, first. In some cases, that means I won't have a test sample of my own - because I've already been warned off by trend analysis. (The Eclipse wasn't mine; I flew it for somebody else.)
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Old August 31, 2012, 09:24 AM   #160
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My post began as a general analysis...I don't need to be corrected as to where to post, just because the conversation happened to go in a different direction, implying that my comments are somehow improperly categorized within the forum.

As for your analysis of the Beretta versus the Taurus, you won't get an argument from me. But, you might from others that have purchased the Taurus and seem to be perfectly content with it, and for a considerably cheaper price compared to the Beretta. Spending more for the refinements doesn't make the Taurus a total and complete POS.

To satisfy my own preferences, I probably agree with your decision to purchase the one with the refinements, but I wouldn't imply that others that have purchased the Taurus are idiots for having done so either.

A lot of this is subjective when it comes to making choices, and predicated on affordability. If "we" have the money to purchase the refinements, more power to us. But, those that don't, that choose to purchase the lesser expensive Taurus, are not complete fools for doing so, nor are they any less content with their purchases apparently.

There is also the issue of break-in period with respect to some of the tightness you might first experience in the gun store. Keltec P3ATs and Ruger LCPs are a perfect example. The P3AT and the LCPs are commonly known to throw fits for about the first 300 rounds or so. If you don't know enough to break-in a firearm, you are also quite likely to return it when it has a few hick ups in the beginning. Yet, P3AT and the LCP have been one of the most reliable back up pieces you can own, and highly favored by Law Enforcement, but only if the shooter has the sophistication to know better with respect to enduring some initial incidents of FTF and FTE.

If a novice, inexperienced shooter were to purchase them, and failed to break them in properly, and to give them an opportunity to function flawlessly in the long run, how many do you think might just get returned by them? Those of us that have spent many years in the firearms business are aware of the degree to which shooter induced complaints, many of which are mistakenly categorized as defects, contribute to overall returns.

Since you insist on my posting more generalized comments, I'll give you a bigger target...my bone of contention is the implication that everything Taurus manufactures is crap, and the accompanying implication that anyone that chooses to purchase a Taurus product is an idiot in lieu of purchasing other brands, some of which have just as many complaints, or are twice the price.

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Old August 31, 2012, 10:34 AM   #161
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I don't think anybody is trying to claim that all Taurus guns are POS. That's a straw man.

I think several of us are claiming that the lemon rate from Taurus is significantly higher than the rate from most of the popular major manufacturers. Note that if the general lemon rate is 2%, and Taurus is at 8% (arbitrary numbers) that on the one hand, most Taurus guns would be just fine, but on the other they would have a lemon rate 4x that of the general rate.

Point being, it's very possible to argue that Taurus can make a lot of good guns, while still having a much higher rate of problem guns than is the norm.

Once again, it's not about price. I've heard of Kimbers arriving with untreated white steel barrels, with rust spots on barrels in NIB guns. I've had FTRB issues with a Les Baer (which I am pretty sure are due to the oversized thumb safety design; low thumb, I tend to engage the safety inadvertently - high thumb, I'm pretty sure my thumb rides the slide too much - so I am switching to a mil-spec thumb safety to see what effect that has).

The rusted barrel issue is bad; there is really no excuse for that. But the thumb safety issue isn't as big a deal, in my book, because it's a feature that many competitors - who prefer a high thumb and practice it all the time - prefer, but that doesn't work for me. And it's a mod that is known, over a broad spectrum of 1911 makes, to sometimes cause exactly this problem. (Especially for people like me, with extra long fingers and thumbs.)

So yes, higher priced guns can have issues, too. I don't think anybody is denying that. Nor is anybody denying that shooter physiology can have an impact. (For another example, my hands are too long for me to get a grip on skinny J-frame grips, or the original skinny SP101 grip; I have to use slightly oversized grips. BUT again, my hands are not in the range most designers plan on for general fit.)

And, again, I have some lower price guns, too - primarily used.

I had a friend ask me just the other day to recommend a home defense handgun in the $300 range. I told him that generally speaking, I don't recommend particular models for people, because a lot of factors go into what will work for a given person. I suggested he check out corneredcat.com for a good review of handgun selection factors. I even said just come on out to my place, and I'll let you try an assortment so you can figure out what you like.

But he kept asking what I, personally, would look for at $300. I told him that, for me - and not meaning for him - I would grab a police trade in S&W K frame or 3rd Gen S&W auto from someplace like J&G Sales.

In a new gun, sub-$300, I might consider something like a Kel-Tech P32, simply because it will fit a niche that nothing else at that price will fit; but I'm fairly big, and can conceal a K or 3rd Gen under most conditions, so...

In your case, you have a Taurus that works well. That's great. A lot of people do. I, personally, would not suggest that you get rid of it or take it out of your carry rotation. It's working.

But based on observations about the relative odds of a poor performer; and based on horror stories about the experiences of those who have actually needed to use CS; I can't endorse the new products for people who ask me "What gun should I buy?" And I won't roll the dice on one for myself.

(Speaking of CS, Beretta has a very poor CS/Warranty reputation, but in 17 years of owning various Berettas, I've never had to find out about that. Nothing has ever failed, in any way. Not with military issued guns that looked all beaten up, and not with the four I've owned, nor the several that have belonged to friends of mine.

A gunsmith friend is a huge fan of Springfield Armory, because in his experience they not only have great CS and warranty support, but they support people who are not original owners.

My experiences with S&W CS have been mostly good, the only complaint being that in one case, with a gun I'd bought used, they didn't offer to send a shipping label.)

You get the idea.
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Old August 31, 2012, 11:31 AM   #162
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MLEAKE,

I can't really find any fault in your most recent comments. We are seeing more eye to eye, and even your posts are getting as long as mine!!!

I still question using any arbitrary return rate compared to the other brands because it just contributes to what might just possibly be a bogus assessment based mostly on conjecture, since there isn't really anything to quantitatively confirm or substantiate that the returns were in fact defects.

That isn't to say that the returns aren't in excess of the other manufacturers...they may very well be. It just means that we don't really know if the returns are legitimate defects, or the consequence of what I call the "Bubba" factor.

No offense intended to any of you that claim to be Bubbas out there.

On-line reviews of all models should be factored in, certainly, but I'm much more an advocate of what you did when shopping for the PT22 series. An experienced shooter can examine a firearm and know what it's potential for problems might be.

There are always the hidden issues, like alloy type, heat treat, etc...but, for the most part, you can discern whether a design is or is not basically sound, especially if you've had the advantage of comparing different designs, one right next to the other. This seems especially easy when comparing the polymer handguns, as was illustrated in my original post.

I think that Taurus had huge problems in the past, and to a certain extent, apparently with some models, they still may. But, there again, once in a while you'll see where somebody pops up in the forum claiming that their old Taurus from yesteryear is perfect in every way.

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Old August 31, 2012, 03:09 PM   #163
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Quizcat,

I apologize if my earlier posts had seemed excessively harsh . I am not usually a jerk in person, but I sometimes come across a bit more aggressively in written than in spoken form. Words may be exactly the same, but the non-threatening, non-verbal part of the communication is missing.

I still think that you are attributing too much to novice users, but I can't deny that they are a likely a fairly large source of complaints for manufacturers in general, and lower cost manufacturers in particular.
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Old August 31, 2012, 03:17 PM   #164
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With regard to heat treatment, I had purchased one of the early Ruger LCR .38 revolvers, that had some issues with flame cutting (weird from a .38) and top strap issues. Apparently, they had a batch that did not get heat treated.

I had given the LCR to a friend; the damage occurred while he had it, as I had not shot it much. He called Ruger. Ruger sent a shipping label, determined the LCR was defective, and sent him a new one within two weeks. Big thumbs up to Ruger CS, at least.

But my friend had lost confidence in the LCR, so he traded it in for
an American Classic commander length .45, of all things.

Note that my friend's longest owned, still carried handgun is an SP-101. He still loves Ruger, but not the LCR. Model had problems, but other models haven't; plus, Ruger backed their product without hesitation or hassle. These things really do matter to a lot of us.
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Old August 31, 2012, 03:43 PM   #165
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We are passionate, so we sometimes react with a zealousness that is sometimes misinterpreted. If I came across likewise, I also sincerely apologize. It isn't my intention to be overly aggressive. But, my written word does probably sting a bit when I get all wrapped up in trying to convey what may be understandably interpreted by some as unconventional thinking, or my bucking the trend.

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Old August 31, 2012, 04:01 PM   #166
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I have also had occasions to deal with Ruger CS myself. My most recent contact with them involved an Talo version Emiliano Zapata commemorative Vaquero.

There was a smudge on the front sight, like some gun grease had been there for quite a while. It wouldn't rub off, and the gun was sufficiently expensive that I didn't want to mess with correcting the problem myself.



I sent it back to Ruger, they merely polished it up, and got it back from them in a couple of weeks. It looks fantastic! You can't even tell the smudge was ever there.

My intention is to frame them in the following configuration, maybe in some kind of shadow box, and display them in my office, a reminder of "mucho tiempo" (ie: a lot of time) spent in Mexico on business, even to this day. Just haven't had the time to complete my vision for the pair.

I will never fire them...I purchased a regular 45LC blued Vaquero so I could at least know how they must feel to be shot.




"Emiliano Zapata" The Mexican Revolutionary


"It is better to die on one's feet, than to live on one's knees"

When a company like Ruger starts to venture into new areas, like the LCRs and the LCPs, LC9s, etc...it can get a little harry. I think companies that built their reputations on larger framed handguns are kind of flirting with disaster unless they're really careful with their engineering.

Due to the size of the parts, the reduced weight required, and the smaller frame sizes, etc..., it must be a considerable challenge to reduce defects to an acceptable level.

Plus, with the market having such a huge demand for concealable firearms, and the Bubba factor due to the low acquisition cost, everybody wanting their concealed carry, some consumers that wouldn't have known a firearm if it hit them square in the head, etc...their engineering department probably felt the pressure to roll out a product very quickly. Being rushed can cause huge quality issues, and it takes awhile for the hick ups to settle down.

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Old August 31, 2012, 04:48 PM   #167
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I haven’t posted much in this particular thread as the "Let's Bash Taurus" threads are so voluminous in nature that I usually skip them (not living in denial but it's like "Groundhog Day" ), but this is the most intelligently conducted one I have seen so far . I can only speak to mine (92, PT22/25, 24/7 G2 Tactical 9) and they have been as reliable as my Rugers, Smith's and Beretta’s). The two that I usually compare for my own evaluation are the Taurus 92 with the Beretta and likewise with my PT22/25 and my Bobcat models. In my case, I cannot say buy the Taurus "equivalent" hands-down because they are better guns--However, I like the Taurus 92 because of the safety location (and 12 years ago when I purchased it was when they were substantially cheaper which is no longer true) and the PT-22/25's because I got incredible steal like deals on them and I am one of those mouse-gun nuts. Yet, they all keep pace with their respective Italian equivalents stride for stride (as someone previously mentioned my Taurus mouse-guns are a bit more sensitive with the ammo then the Bobcat's). And the 24/7 Tacical is a beast that will feed everything in sight and run all day long (I know this was submitted in the USSOCOM testing that was eventually shelved--Brazilian SF carry this particular model and I can see why—it actually appears more durable IMO than the 92).

By the way, I am not one to dismiss every single complaint as invalid due to being a Taurus fan-boy--However, I would really like to see some "empirical data/stats" concerning vendor complaints/returns other than conjecture. Does anyone know of a legitimate site that collects this kind of data? I am looking for something analogous to say "Consumer Reports" dedicated to firearms...

Happy Labor Day and GOOD LUCK to those looking for work!

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Old August 31, 2012, 05:47 PM   #168
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The 24/7 GS has considerable promise to replace my PT140. There are some features to that firearm that are exceptional. The only thing holding me back is they don't seem to have a magazine finger extension. Has anyone ever seen one made available for it?

I heard that Taurus acquired Beretta's manufacturing plant in Brazil, and all the tooling necessary to make the PT92 to Beretta's specifications. It would not surprise me to learn that Taurus produced the castings for that plant to begin with...just speculation of course. There are more incestuous relationships in the firearms industry than most manufacturers are willing to admit.

I don't know the age and integrity of what they purchased, but it sounds like yours has worked out well for you. Undoubtedly, upgrades to equipment would be necessary over time, but it's interesting that they are apparently competing well with the original Beretta 92.
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Old August 31, 2012, 06:13 PM   #169
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Quote:
Quizcat

I heard that Taurus acquired Beretta's manufacturing plant in Brazil, and all the tooling necessary to make the PT92 to Beretta's specifications....

You know when I was researching/debating on which 92 to go with, it was the aforementioned fact along with Mossad Ayoob's recommendation that I went with the Taurus model (and to reiterate, at that time they were substantially cheaper which in its totality made it a no-brainer for me).

But yeah, there's a lot of interesting info on the Beretta Brazilian plant purchased by Taurus.

-Cheers
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Old August 31, 2012, 08:40 PM   #170
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I don't know if these two Tauri were unusual, but both a PT-22 and a PT-25, NIB, did the same thing; and the store manager told me that was normal in the pistols that had come into his shop.
I'd have to say that it's not the norm as he says, but that's based only on 2 examples, mine and the other one I've fired. Both mine and the other were fairly easy to close the barrels. OTOH, the slides were harder than hell to rack. That of course, didn't matter to me one whit, as mine was bought for my wife's destroyed hands and the tip-up meant she'd never have to rack. Of course she wasn't able to use even this neat little gun, so it's simply a fun gun of mine, and my only Taurus, for now. Would I give them a third chance? Probably.
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Old September 1, 2012, 12:35 AM   #171
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I live in Miami, FL...Where Taurus is made.

Let's just put it this way...I STILL wouldn't touch those things with a severed zombie hand.


(EXCEPT! The 1911 and PT-92) I would give those a try only because I've heard good things about them. Never handed..those..Taurai...
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Old September 7, 2012, 06:37 PM   #172
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I own a .357 Taurus revolver, and have for many yrs now, and my wife has had her Taurus .38 spl ultralite since 2006. Both guns have many rds fired through them, no complaints. I can't speak as to their sem-autos , never fired one. But the revolvers I can't fault
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Old September 7, 2012, 06:52 PM   #173
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brazosdave

I own a .357 Taurus revolver, and have for many yrs now, and my wife has had her Taurus .38 spl ultralite since 2006. Both guns have many rds fired through them, no complaints. I can't speak as to their sem-autos , never fired one. But the revolvers I can't fault
I am the opposite in that I have fired their revolvers via range rentals but have never owned one--I have my eye 'big-time' on their 608 (aesthetically looks like that same "beefy" class of revolvers as the GP100, 686, Python etc.). I'm thinking Santa may 'have one up his sleeve' for me come my favorite holiday of all, CHRISTMAS!
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Old September 7, 2012, 07:00 PM   #174
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I gave you my personal experience earlier in this thread on Taurus as someone who felt they would be a good way to get into pistols... Ignore hands on real world purchasing disasters at your own peril... I wish you all the best of luck... I do understand some of the weapons from Taurus do work and are great but shouldnt that be the normal expectation and not the exception.... It seems its a coin toss on what your getting, not a great way to do business...
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Old September 7, 2012, 08:52 PM   #175
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When reading complaints reported in these forums, I have to read cause and effect in order to buy into the idea that a particular model is of inconsistent quality and performance, and that goes double for an entire brand name.

We live in a very small world these days, and where a product is manufactured is an almost meaningless consideration in and of itself.

Claiming to reject brands or models, seemingly out of pure prejudice, without detailed specifics, and also failing to quantify that a particular model has a disproportionate number of complaints by cause and effect is of little or no legitimate value.

I can find and post complaints on each and every model or brand out there, bar none. What is illusive is "specifics." The reality is, a disproportionate number of complaints come off as purely prejudicial because there is little substance (cause and effect) to back up the claims of statistically higher legitimate defects.

Last edited by Quizcat; September 7, 2012 at 09:19 PM.
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