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Old August 25, 2012, 07:20 PM   #1
Genepix
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LEO/Military 9mm ammo choices

Curious what law enforcement and/or military who carry 9 mm use for ammo. Thanks...
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Old August 25, 2012, 07:28 PM   #2
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Law enforcement varies between the major premium brands depending on where you live. IIRC the m882 cartridge is a 124gr fmj at around 1200 fps.
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Old August 26, 2012, 12:33 AM   #3
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The local police dept. issues the Remington "R9MM6" 115 grain +P JHP. This is the older style JHP, not the newer, more high tech, Brass Jacketed Hollow Point. The R9MM6 runs about 1250-1300fps depending on barrel length. It is a very old style bullet but feeds and functions well. For training, the WWB, Rem-UMC or Federal American Eagle Ball ammo is used.

I believe our military uses the regular 124 grain NATO ball in 9MM. I have used thousands of rounds of the Winchester "Q4318" NATO ball. It runs ~1150 in the 3.5" barrels to 1300+FPS in the 5" barrels. The Federal M882 NATO I chronographed was noticeably slower than the Winchester...ymmv
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Old August 26, 2012, 11:21 AM   #4
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Top choices for duty, military, carry...

I'm not a military or firearms expert, but for general use, these 9x19mm(9mmNATO) brands seem to be popular with armed professionals(sworn LE, armed security, protection agents, etc):

Hornady's Critical Duty 9x19mm 135gr +P, the Golden Saber 124gr bonded +P JHP, the Speer Gold Dot JHP +P 124gr, Corbon's DPX, the Ranger T bonded 124gr +P JHP(T-Series), the Winchester Ranger T 127gr +P+ JHP.
Most military services carry milspec or ball(FMJ) 124gr NATO loads.
Some LE agencies & concealed carry license holders like the Federal 9x19mm loads too but I'd buy the new Hornady Critical Duty, the Golden Saber, the Speer Gold Dot +P or Ranger T(127gr +P+) round first.
The Critical Duty 9mm has great specs & the Ranger T 9mm loads are very popular with metro PDs nationwide.

CF
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Old August 26, 2012, 11:47 AM   #5
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The current U.S. Miliatry issue 9mm ammunition is M882 which consists of a 112gr FMJ bullet at a muzzle velocity of 1263fps.

http://olive-drab.com/od_firearms_ammo_9mm.php

What is used by police will vary from deparment to department. I do know that the NYPD uses 124gr +P Speer Gold Dot while FBI agents still using 9mm handguns (most use .40 S&W) are using 147gr Winchester Ranger Bonded. Also, IIRC, the Illinois State Police still use the older 115gr +P+ Federal Hi-Shok.
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Old August 26, 2012, 07:14 PM   #6
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The Dept of Veterans Affairs Police use the 124gr Remington Golden Saber.
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Old August 26, 2012, 10:14 PM   #7
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Quote:
The current U.S. Miliatry issue 9mm ammunition is M882 which consists of a 112gr FMJ bullet at a muzzle velocity of 1263fps.
I don't believe this to be accurate. M882 ammo simply has to comply with STANAG 4090 (Nato Standardization Agreement) which allows for a range of bullet weights and energies (and pressures). It does not cover velocities per se but specifying velocity and mass would cover the energy requirement.
Quote:
The mass of all bullets shall be within the limits 7.0g (108 grains) to 8.3g (128 grains) inclusive. The energy at the muzzle when fired from the standard proof barrel should not be less than 542J (400 Ftlbf) and not more than 814J ( 600 ftlbf).
http://www.scribd.com/doc/85843207/N...arabellum-1982

I have done some quick Googling and cannot find any evidence that a 112 gr. bullet has been issued to U.S. Military; rather the "standard" seems to be 124 gr. I have not served in the military. Perhaps someone with real military experience and knowledge can shed some light on this.
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Old August 27, 2012, 07:52 AM   #8
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Quote:
Quote:
The current U.S. Miliatry issue 9mm ammunition is M882 which consists of a 112gr FMJ bullet at a muzzle velocity of 1263fps.

I don't believe this to be accurate. M882 ammo simply has to comply with STANAG 4090 (Nato Standardization Agreement) which allows for a range of bullet weights and energies (and pressures). It does not cover velocities per se but specifying velocity and mass would cover the energy requirement.

Quote:
The mass of all bullets shall be within the limits 7.0g (108 grains) to 8.3g (128 grains) inclusive. The energy at the muzzle when fired from the standard proof barrel should not be less than 542J (400 Ftlbf) and not more than 814J ( 600 ftlbf).

http://www.scribd.com/doc/85843207/N...arabellum-1982

I have done some quick Googling and cannot find any evidence that a 112 gr. bullet has been issued to U.S. Military; rather the "standard" seems to be 124 gr. I have not served in the military. Perhaps someone with real military experience and knowledge can shed some light on this.
According to the Army Ammunition Data Sheets for Small Caliber Ammunition, the M885 9mm cartridge is a 112gr bullet at 1263fps +/- 5fps measured 15 feet from the muzzle (page 12-5)

http://www.ar15.com/content/manuals/TM43-0001-27.pdf
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Old August 27, 2012, 10:30 PM   #9
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Yes, I was familiar with the Army Ammo Data Sheet. I had read somewhere (can't find it now) that this was from an early draft and it just "stuck" while the most common bullet weight used was 124 gr. This post from another forum seems to confirm it -- he pulled the bullet and it weighed 123.6 gr. http://forums.thecmp.org/showpost.ph...4&postcount=13. As I said, I can't confirm it and it's not a big deal either way.
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Old August 28, 2012, 03:23 AM   #10
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doesnt NYPD use 9mm speed gold dots??
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Old August 28, 2012, 08:12 AM   #11
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Yes. It was mentioned in the 6th or 7th post.
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Old August 28, 2012, 09:26 AM   #12
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Down here we get Speer Gold Dot +p's for 9's and 45's and Speer Gold Dot for 40's as well.
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Old August 28, 2012, 07:11 PM   #13
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akguy1985: doesnt NYPD use 9mm speed gold dots??

Dun: Ask Amadou Diallo.
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Old August 28, 2012, 07:45 PM   #14
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My Airman's manual states M882 Ball 124 gr.
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Old August 29, 2012, 10:05 PM   #15
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can't speak for LE, but the army carries 9mm Ball FMJ ammo. Nothing else is authorized. This is because someone way back when in Geneva decided it was inhumane for soldiers to shoot people with hollow points like cops do. Still haven't figured that one out.
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Old August 29, 2012, 11:58 PM   #16
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Many agencies may just be using whatever they got the lowest bid on.
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Old August 30, 2012, 08:19 AM   #17
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Quote:
can't speak for LE, but the army carries 9mm Ball FMJ ammo. Nothing else is authorized. This is because someone way back when in Geneva decided it was inhumane for soldiers to shoot people with hollow points like cops do.
It wasn't the Geneva Convention (that deals primarily with the treatment of prisoners) but rather Declaration III of the Hague Convention of 1899 which prohibited the use of "bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions" in war. It should be noted, however, that the United States did not sign that particular accord and that even amongst signatory nations, it only truly applies when the war is between signatory powers. Given that we didn't sign it and haven't been in a war with a signatory power since WWII, a strong case could be made that the ban on hollowpoints and softpoints does not apply to the U.S., but we go along with it anyway for the sake of political correctness.

An interesting note is that while expanding bullets are banned by the Hague Convention, those designed to fragment (as our own XM193 5.56x45 loading routinely does) or yaw (such as .303 British Mk. VII Ball, 5.45x39 5N7 FMJ, or 7.62x54R 7N1 FMJ) are not prohibited and have been in use by various militaries for over a century.

For those interested, here is a link to Declaration III of the Hague Convention of 1899

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp
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Old August 30, 2012, 08:49 AM   #18
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The local PD uses Gold Dots.

While the official NATO spec is for a 124 gr FMJ in a pretty stout load, I have seen government labeled boxes of plain vanilla 115 gr. I think there is a good deal of off the shelf procurement.
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Old August 30, 2012, 04:08 PM   #19
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The local metro PD stopped carrying 9mm and switched to 40 caliber. They use Federal HST. Off duty 9mm is Speer Gold DOT. It's a good bet not every department carries the same weapon, caliber or ammo choice. Lots of factors.
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Old August 30, 2012, 04:12 PM   #20
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DHS just bought 450 million rounds of Federal HST .40 cal
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Old September 1, 2012, 08:25 AM   #21
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Common types of 9x19mm & NYPD....

To my understanding, the most common brand for sworn LE is the popular Ranger T 127gr +P+ JHP. It has a great street-LE officer involved shooting record and feeds-cycles well.
The Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P JHP is also in use with many PDs.
This load is what the NYPD has issued for nearly 10 years now.

I'd still suggest checking the new Critical Duty ammunition from Hornady.
It doesn't have any documented uses yet, but the specs are top notch.

Clyde
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Old September 2, 2012, 12:56 PM   #22
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Quote:
It wasn't the Geneva Convention (that deals primarily with the treatment of prisoners) but rather Declaration III of the Hague Convention of 1899 which prohibited the use of "bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions" in war. It should be noted, however, that the United States did not sign that particular accord and that even amongst signatory nations, it only truly applies when the war is between signatory powers. Given that we didn't sign it and haven't been in a war with a signatory power since WWII, a strong case could be made that the ban on hollowpoints and softpoints does not apply to the U.S., but we go along with it anyway for the sake of political correctness.

An interesting note is that while expanding bullets are banned by the Hague Convention, those designed to fragment (as our own XM193 5.56x45 loading routinely does) or yaw (such as .303 British Mk. VII Ball, 5.45x39 5N7 FMJ, or 7.62x54R 7N1 FMJ) are not prohibited and have been in use by various militaries for over a century.

For those interested, here is a link to Declaration III of the Hague Convention of 1899
Neither the US or Britain are signatories of the Hague Convenventions.
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Old September 2, 2012, 01:14 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KyJim:
Thanks for the link, Jim. Very informative.
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Old September 3, 2012, 11:45 AM   #24
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Not sure what they currently use but a few years ago our county was using gold dots in all calibers.
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Old September 3, 2012, 10:31 PM   #25
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Guys have already posted most of what I have seen in LE but I must say that I have noticed a discernable increase in the use of the new Hornady Critical Duty 9mm 135gr load. It seems to have satisfied/bridged the gap between those who prefer expansion in a heavier bullet (lots of the 9mm LE loads seem to be on the light-weight side [=<115gr] much to the chagrin of many).

I only wish that our Military Services could, likewise, take advantage of the remarkable technological advances in the development of lethal ammunition.
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