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Old June 24, 2012, 07:33 PM   #1
daktaklakpak
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Israeli Mauser K98K 7.62/.308 worries

Hello all,

I am new and just jumping into this as a hobby recently. I recently purchased a Israeli Mauser K98K rebarreled for 7.62x51 NATO, and will be picking it up soon from my FFL.
Here are some pictures: http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...3/8b127d83.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...3/a72e7be9.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...3/ff13db50.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...3/9f08b963.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...3/522ad40c.jpg

My concern is the difference between 7.62x51 NATO and .308 WIN. Almost everywhere I look for ammo, they have bundled the searches of 7.62x51 with .308 win, so that results all look like "7.62x51/.308 win" at places like ammoseek.com. I've done a few google searches, and the main arguments for differences seem to be the pressure differences and headspace differences between 7.62x51 nato and .308 win. I've browsed a few discussions, and I have come across these points as well:

A) http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=399226
B) http://dutchman.rebooty.com/1895Chile.html
C) http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326877

In point A), there was a comment that seems to have some faith in that firing .308 WIN should be okay due to 8mm Mauser (which the gun and action were originally working with) being a more powerful round.

Point B) is what scares me. Will my rifle eventually be destined to come apart, even with the marked 7.62x51 nato ammo?

Point C) the detailed document FALPhil wrote says the pressure differences are negligible, which throws me back into the endless loop of questioning the differences again.

My main questions, I guess, are:
1) Is it safe to buy .308 win for my Israeli k98k 7.62 considering the above points?
2) If I have to buy 7.62x51 and not .308 win, where can I do so in larger quantities (200+ rounds) cheaply without reloading them myself?
3) Is my Israeli Mauser going to be okay with either round in the long run?

I just want to have fun and shoot, but safely of course.


Thanks guys!

ps. the best deal I found, if .308 is okay, is http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.as...box&groupid=26 wondering if I can do better elsewhere
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Old June 25, 2012, 12:10 AM   #2
mrawesome22
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A Jewish Mauser
Really?

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Last edited by mrawesome22; June 25, 2012 at 12:18 AM.
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Old June 25, 2012, 12:27 AM   #3
Jim Watson
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Yeah, the Nazis didn't need them any longer.


I would not worry about shooting .308 Win factory loads in a 7.62 NATO '98 Mauser, the cheapo Chilean '95 conversion does not apply.
If you took up handloading, some care would be required to handle the roomy military chamber.

I don't know how well that steel cased Russian ammo will work for you, best not to buy a whole lot to start with.
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Old June 25, 2012, 06:40 AM   #4
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If your headspace checks out, you will be fine with any .308 Winchester or 7.62 Nato load. Your 98K can handle much more powerfull cartridges than either of them. Get your Headspace checked by a Gunsmith before firing the Rifle.
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Old June 25, 2012, 07:44 AM   #5
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Not only did the Israelis adopt the 98 Mauser, the Germans adopted the Uzi.
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Old June 25, 2012, 08:11 AM   #6
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Over the years I bought a couple surplus 7x57 barrels " in the white" that were contoured and threaded for the '98. I am pretty sure they were Israeli manufacture also. I guess they modified a lot of them.
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Old June 25, 2012, 08:19 AM   #7
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i own two 98 mausers,one a dot-45 rebuild and two a fn rebuild, both are in ex condition and shoot .308-7.62x51 with no problems at all(plus reloads). just make sure the rifle in in good condition(check under the wood for pitting). alot of the rifles were shipped to south america and were treated very badly(stored in a muddy ditch). eastbank.
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Old June 25, 2012, 10:39 AM   #8
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This issue comes up WAY too often.
There is no difference between 7.62x51 Nato and .308 Win., they are the same thing. Your mother is also your father's wife. Two different women? No.
A military 7.62 chamber is generally more generous than a commercial .308 chamber. Military 7.62 brass usually has a thicker web to withstand MG extraction, and the internal case capacity is a bit less. This last bit isonly of concern to reloaders.
If your .308 or 7.62 chambered rifle is in good nick with good headspace, it can use any factory 7.62 Nato/.308 ammo.
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Old June 25, 2012, 12:33 PM   #9
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Quote:
A Jewish Mauser
Really?
Yes, really. If you research the history of Israel's defense forces, you will find that the Israelis were sold many German rifles immediately after WW2 when the British divided Palestine into the new nation of Israel and Trans-Jordan Palestine (now Jordan and Syria). The Jewish Homeland was populated with many European Jews expatriated by the Nazis and liberated by the Allied Forces, armed by the British and Americans. They were supplied with German K98k rifles and Czechoslovakian M98 variants. These are some of the best 98s available.

The concerns most commonly heard about 7.62 NATO-chambered Mausers are about the Spanish 1893/1916 rifles chambered for 7.62 NATO in the 1960s, whose strength is often suspect. Any M98 rifle should be able to withstand 7.62NATO/308 pressures without even a hiccup.
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Old June 25, 2012, 01:48 PM   #10
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For more fun, the Israelis flew Check made Me109 against the Egyptian Spitfires.
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Old June 25, 2012, 02:07 PM   #11
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my dot-45 was never assembled by the germans, but by the chechs after the war, originaly in 8mm and sold to the israelies,later it was than rebarreled in 7.62x51., my fn was made originaly in 8mm for the israelies(israelie creast on the reciever) and later rebarreled in 7.62x51. both shoot super,but the fn is the better shooting one.eastbank.
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Old June 25, 2012, 02:29 PM   #12
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"when the British divided Palestine into the new nation of Israel and Trans-Jordan Palestine (now Jordan and Syria). The Jewish Homeland was populated with many European Jews expatriated by the Nazis and liberated by the Allied Forces, armed by the British and Americans"

A bit OT, but let's clarify this a bit.
The Brits did their Trans-Jordan split (about 70% of Palestine given to the Arabs) back about 1928 or 29, and then the UN further split the remaining 30% between Jewish and Arab Palestinians. In addition, relatively few "European Jews 'expatriated' (however that is meant!) by the Nazis" reached Israel before its founding in 1948. And they were expressly NOT armed by the UK or US, both of whom initiated an arms embargo on the area.
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Old June 25, 2012, 03:09 PM   #13
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That is quite interesting.

I would have thought Israel would want nothing to do with guns that almost wiped their people off the face of the planet.

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Old June 25, 2012, 03:45 PM   #14
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From the link you gave
http://dutchman.rebooty.com/1895Chile.html
Quote:
US Army 7.62x51 chamber pressures:
Maximum: 50,000 psi
Proof pressure: 67,500 psi
This is were the problem starts in understanding the difference between 7.62x51 and 308. right numbers, wrong units of pressure. The 50,000 is the correct number but the wrong units are used, it should read 50,000 cup (Copper Units of Pressure). The crush copper method was use when 7.62x51 was pressure tested and people keep changing cup to psi and then scream that 308 at 62,000 psi will blow your 7.62x51 gun. If tested the same way and using the same units of pressure they are both the same pressure.
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Old June 25, 2012, 04:40 PM   #15
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Quote:
I would have thought Israel would want nothing to do with guns that almost wiped their people off the face of the planet.
They approached the subject from a practical perspective. Proofmarks, date codes and serial numbers were left intact so they knew the parts were to spec and any swastikas, war eagles etc were peened off.
I have been trying to find a concentration camp code israeli mauser.
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Old June 25, 2012, 05:01 PM   #16
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The milspec 7.62 I have shot is a bit softer to me than my 308 hand loads. Of course the bullets were a bit lighter as well.
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Old June 25, 2012, 09:37 PM   #17
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I've dug through dozens of Israeli Mausers, and very few have actually been wartime. For the 10-12 wartime I've seen, not a single marking has been peened.
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Old June 25, 2012, 10:03 PM   #18
JHansenAK47
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They peened off the swastikas and the war eagles which is the eagle over a swastika. Other than that they left most of the markings intact. You don't find swastikas on israeli mausers but you do see waffenamt acceptance marks intact on the various parts.
My czech rampant lion receiver israeli mauser has clearly been peened on the left side.
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Old June 25, 2012, 11:00 PM   #19
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Never seen anything peened. You sure the Czechs didn't peen yours before they sent it to Israel???
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Old June 25, 2012, 11:18 PM   #20
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I have two israeli mausers. One has the waffenamps completely obliterated, on has the eagle part intact and only the swastika in the circle peened.
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Old June 26, 2012, 07:35 AM   #21
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After WWII there were large quantities of high quality German manufactured weapons and ammunition available in Europe and plenty of people willing to deal in them. The Israelis had cash and needed weapons. They were also desperate and took a very pragmatic approach, learned the hard way, to their own survival. They may also have taken some satisfaction in defending themselves using weapons made by their most industrious oppressors.
I have had three 7.62 X 51 Israeli Mausers since 1985 and have shot .308 soft point and FMJ from various reputable manufacturers and some real horror comic 7.62. The worse was Persian which grouped into 2 inches at 25 yards.
If your gunsmith says the rifle is safe I would not worry. You are unlikely to have problems if you shoot decent stuff.
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Old June 26, 2012, 10:05 AM   #22
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Quote:
I would have thought Israel would want nothing to do with guns that almost wiped their people off the face of the planet.
Political correctness is the first thing that gets throw out when people are shooting at you.
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Old June 26, 2012, 04:22 PM   #23
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For the record, the Mausers are not jewish. There is no flash hider over the muzzle.
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Old June 26, 2012, 05:21 PM   #24
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they would be jewish if their flash hider was missing. eastbank.
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Old June 26, 2012, 06:37 PM   #25
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HAH!!!
Nothing like a little circumcision humor!
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