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Old June 23, 2012, 08:59 PM   #1
Shakgul
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.357 sig vs .40

.357 sig ammo is expensive and if I am not mistaken the lower gain .40 rounds are basicly a .357 sig round or am I missing something?
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Old June 23, 2012, 09:13 PM   #2
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Not sure I understand your question. What is a "lower gain 40"?

However, if you own a .357 Sig, chances are you should be able to get a .40 S&W barrel and just swap it back and forth.

I know it works for Sig and Glock, I don't have experience with it in other brands but I don't see why it wouldn't work.
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Old June 23, 2012, 09:17 PM   #3
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I've wondered the same thing. Is there a recoil difference between a lower grain .40 and a .357 Sig? I wouldn't think so.?

The Mississippi Hwy Patrol has switched to the .357 Sig and one of them told me they like the penetration ability of the Sig.
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Old June 23, 2012, 09:33 PM   #4
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The .357 Sig was one of many attempts to get .357 Mag, 125 grain service revolver ballistics (1400+ fps) from a service auto. In this they succeeded.

9mm +P+ loads, like Federal's 155 grain 9BPLE, will crowd 1350 fps from service length pistols. That's probably close enough for government work.

I was a puppy cop when the .357 Mag/125 was popular, and it was getting used plenty. There were failures to stop with it as well. Some years later, we finally got he go-ahead to carry 1911s provided we could qualify with them. We jumped on that faster than I could type it. I still prefer them to anything else and they sure weren't a step down from the 357.

These days we are issued the .40 it's and excellent service round. I view the .40/165 as having the best combination of penetration and expansion in a high-cap service pistol. My preference is for a 230 grain .45 JHP, but none of them are any better than you can shoot them.
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Old June 23, 2012, 09:54 PM   #5
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If the ammo prices weren't so high for the sig, I'd prefer this over the .40. I had a lonewolf .357sig barrel years ago that I could swap out in my G-27. Being that the Glock 27 was subcompact and lite, the recoil seemed to me to be a bit more harsh than the regular .40 rounds I shoot. But the sig round seemed to have the edge in accuracy.

With a heavier full size pistol and maybe a stronger bolt spring this would be a great potent round.

With a 4 inch barrel, the sig has much flatter tajectory, more penetration with non hollow points, and devestating expansion and energy dispersal with the specialty defence ammo.

All in all- theres not much ballistic difference in energy between the sig and the 40..., but IMHO the sig is a much more efficient penetrator/ expander/ flat shooter....atlast though, ammo prices are killing the availability and our personal preferences.
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Old June 23, 2012, 11:22 PM   #6
Shakgul
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thanks

I have a .40 and I use 165 grain. I was told by a gun dealer that the .357 sig was a 9mm chambered in a .40, so when I was looking at grains of the ammo they make .40 rounds as light as 130 so that seemed like it would be almost the same as .357 sig. Has anyone seen a .40 round lighter then 130 grain? Does it get the same balistics as a sig?
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Old June 24, 2012, 09:34 AM   #7
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CDNN has a Winchester Ranger.40S&W 135 grain load at a very reasonable price. This supposed to be an LEO only round with an advertised velocity of 1300fps. It is the Border Patrol load and they have reported very good results with it.
I have tried it in several of my .40s and it has been flawless and as accurate as anything I have run through those guns. The felt recoil is much less than the 180 grain loads I used to use.
I don't see the need for me to use a lighter and smaller diameter bullet in a more expensive cartridge with no performance advantage. When I need a high performance in a 9mm cartridge, I use the Federal 9BPLE. It is cheap and time proven and give about 1300 fps with a 115 grain bullet.
The .357 Sig may be very useful for those who are issued one and it certainly has excellent results. I just don't need something that is no better than cheaper alternatives. Also reloading bottle necked cartridges is much more difficult than straight ones and I reload a lot of practice rounds.
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Old June 24, 2012, 02:33 PM   #8
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The .357 Sig cartridge is in a way a 9mm chambered in a .40 like your gun dealer said, yes. The .357 Sig cartridge was developed by necking down the .40S&W case to the diameter of .357 - which is the same diameter as the 9mm.

I don't think you want to go to 125gr loads in the .40S&W though. They work well in the .357 diameter, but is getting to be too low a bullet mass for the fatter .40 diameter, some people would say it has too low a "sectional density" for good penetration (for defense application at least, for paper it doesn't matter).
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Old June 24, 2012, 02:43 PM   #9
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The 9mm Parabellum actually has a diameter of .355, not .357.
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Old June 24, 2012, 02:48 PM   #10
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The 357 Sig is a dandy round. The bottleneck cartidge feeds flawlessly, it shoots flat, penetrates well and I think it has less recoil than a .40.

You are pretty much limited to the 125 GR bullet, but, thats ok as its a pretty proven stopper.

The 115 9mm +P+ is ballistically very close to the 357 SIG. But, its a vey high pressure round and will likely beat your gun up a little faster than standard pressure rounds. On the other hand, the guns designed around the 357 SIG can handle that pressure pretty well.

Its a very good round. So is the .40. And the 9mm. And the .45 ACP..and the .357 Magnum...etc...etc.

If you can put any of those rounds where they need to go, you'll be fine. Alot of State Police agencies and Feds, along with alot of city agencies (Dallas PD right off the top of my head) really like the round.
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Old June 24, 2012, 03:00 PM   #11
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.357 Sig and 9mm both take the same size bullet dia. .355. just the 357 Sig is faster then the 9mm but slower then a 40 S&W

9mm 147gr. bullet, 3.5gr. of powder speed is 750 FPS
357 Sig 147gr. bullet, 5.2gr. of powder speed is 900 FPS
40 S&W 155 gr. bullet, 6.1gr. of powder speed is 1000 FPS

the powder is the lowest charge you can put going by my reloading books

and a little side note: at 5.2 grains of powder you can reload 1400 rounds of 357 Sig
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Old June 24, 2012, 09:29 PM   #12
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Do like me. Have one in both rounds (.357 Sig and .40 S&W.)

That way the next ammo shortage that comes won't affect you as much. And then add 9mm and .22. Say a Glock 27 with 9mm, .357 Sig, and AACK .22 unit. That way 4 types off ammo all work in your gun.

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Old June 24, 2012, 09:49 PM   #13
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Need to ask my cousin about the MS HP... want to know the reason...
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Old June 25, 2012, 02:09 AM   #14
Jim March
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Main reason I would stay away from the 357Sig is ammo price, plus it's a pain to reload.

Ammo capacity between the 357Sig and 40S&W is always the same in a particular gun frame and magazine as the 40 is the parent shell for the 357Sig.

The Sig has a feed reliability advantage - only a fractional improvement in good guns though. The Sig might have a slight edge in long-range performance but that's not usually an issue.
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Old June 25, 2012, 10:34 PM   #15
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.357 Sig is great for something like Highway Patrol. For indoor work, not so much. It's far too loud compared to other rounds, and will damage hearing more easily. The noise/pressure created by the round is something like 2.5 to 3 times that of a .45, if memory serves. For this reason, I still think the use of the .357 Sig on airplanes is a lawsuit waiting to happen. If an air marshal pops on of those off on a plane, there will be a lot of people with serious hearing damage.

And you don't get your ears back. It's life-long.
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Old June 25, 2012, 11:15 PM   #16
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Quote:
Winchester Ranger.40S&W 135 grain load at a very reasonable price. This supposed to be an LEO only round with an advertised velocity of 1300fps. It is the Border Patrol load and they have reported very good results with it.
Actually the "old" Border Patrol load was a 155 JHP at 1250 FPS. The new load is a 180 HST at about 1050 FPS. And yes they worked well.

Quote:
For this reason, I still think the use of the .357 Sig on airplanes is a lawsuit waiting to happen.
If an air marshal has to shoot on a loaded plane, you have bigger problems than some hearing loss.

If you reload your practice ammo there is not much difference in price. If you don't shoot alot, either way it does not make much difference. With modern HP's there is not enough difference between a 9mm, 357 Sig, 40 S&W or 45 ACP to worry about. They are all made to penetrate the same distance and mushroom at a certain velocity threshold.
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Old June 26, 2012, 04:31 AM   #17
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If you were a highway patrolman whose greatest risk is probably a gunfight with someone who is in a car, would you rather have a .357 magnum classic, .357 Sig, .40, 10mm, .41 magnum, or .45 ACP?

I think I would go for the Glock in 10mm. With the high capacity you can retreat under your own covering fire to cover behind your patrol car and still have ammo left to fight with.
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Old June 26, 2012, 10:29 AM   #18
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Quote:
If you were a highway patrolman whose greatest risk is probably a gunfight with someone who is in a car, would you rather have a .357 magnum classic, .357 Sig, .40, 10mm, .41 magnum, or .45 ACP?
Unfortunately these folks must carry what they are issued. Hopefully their agency picks right.

This is one of the things that the Border Patrol studied when deciding on the 40 S&W. The 9mm and the 45 ACP fall short on penetrating automobiles and still being able to inflict enough damage to the occupants. The Border Patrol wanted a semi auto with higher capacity, but with the same power as a full power 357 Magnum which worked well for us for many years. The 40 S&W was the perfect choice.

The 41 Magnum was never considered, due to the desire for a semi auto. At the time of the tests, the FBI was using the 10mm and was having issues with Agents ability to control the full power 10mm. Most modern factory 10mm loads offer little over the 40 S&W (100 -200 FPS) where the 40 is already achieving sufficient velocity. I do not believe the 357 Sig existed at the time of the tests and I have very little experience with it.

When we were issued the 40 S&W I did my own informal testing on an old Dodge parts truck. Using the Beretta 96D and 155 JHP's at 1250 FPS I shot the Dodge up, I tried every conceivable angle on the glass and sheet metal. The bullets ALL went thru and thru everything in the truck (no engine). Some of the bullets went thru glass and then 4-5 layers of sheet metal only to disappear into the dirt. I was impressed.

Due to the advancement in semi auto's and ballistics and the fact that goblins travel in packs the semi auto only makes sense. I love my wheel guns, but for EDC they are relegated to the backup gun role, and its a J frame 357.
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Old June 26, 2012, 08:37 PM   #19
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When I got my Sig P250c 40sw I was thinking about a 357sig barrel for it. Seeing the ammo prices I was having doubt but when I looked at the ballistics of the 40 I realized I don't need the 357.

The Win PDX1 165 BHPs I have for SD is very potent rounds. According to ballistic101 the velocity is 1140fps and 476fp of energy. Plenty enough and there's even more potent rounds on the market.
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Old June 27, 2012, 04:38 AM   #20
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Very insightful post, Nanuk.

Why did you mention Beretta 96D?

Bad gun?
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Old June 27, 2012, 05:27 AM   #21
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I was a big 357 sig fan for over ten years but I've switched to 40S&W. The muzzle report and ammo cost were the two main factors for leaving the 357 sig. The 40S&W offers more versatility.
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Old June 27, 2012, 02:02 PM   #22
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Quote:
Why did you mention Beretta 96D?

Bad gun?
Chunk of unmitigated crap.

The one I was issued could not get thru a magazine without a failure to return to battery. One day a new wolf recoil spring came in the mail and fixed it. The one I was issued had the "M" prefix which meant 2 things, it was made for the INS contract and was 1 of 30,000 assembled in a month. Beretta had mistakenly fired "proof" loads through them. Their fix to that was to throw a new barrel in. I could not keep an entire magazine load on an 8 1/2" X 11" piece of paper from a sandbagged bench rest at 25 yards.

The average lifespan of one was 4-6K rounds. Mine went 3000 rounds and cracked the frame. That made me happy as I could then carry an H&K.

The non shooters loved it.
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Old July 19, 2012, 06:12 AM   #23
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.357 Sig: Must be effective vs. bad guys

Howdy,

The .357 Sig seems to have alot going for it. It's ballistics fairly mimic the vaunted .357 magnum, yet allow increased capacity and purportedly less recoil.
If my bank account were in better shape, this is a caliber I'd strongly consider.
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Old July 19, 2012, 11:18 AM   #24
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It's ballistics fairly mimic the vaunted .357 magnum, yet... purportedly [has] less recoil.
Having fired guns in .357Sig, I don't believe that it necessarily has less recoil. It's just that...
  • It's usually used in flexible-framed tactical plastic autoloaders that inherently have less felt recoil than a good ol' steel frame revolver.
  • The performance of most .357Sig loads falls short of top-end .357Mag loads.
I'll tell you this much. Having fired a G33, this round has SERIOUS muzzle flash and blast from a short barrel, just like .357Mag! As with a traditional .357 snubby, when you take a G33 to the range, other shooters will congregate around your lane to investigate what's making all the noise!
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Old July 19, 2012, 11:42 AM   #25
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The .357 Sig out of a 239 isn't that bad for recoil. Out of that short barrel it's probably not realizing full potential, but it's probably doing a lot better than a 9mm would. I don't think I'd like it out of something too much smaller, though.
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