The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 23, 2012, 07:35 AM   #1
softouch
Junior Member
 
Join Date: April 24, 2012
Location: Here
Posts: 14
Ammunition Confusion...

I got a couple of great replie to my similar thread on "Handguns: The Revolver Forum" that has really helped me. So my confusion is now related to a couple of semi-automatics and their ammunition:

I have a Glock 19 and a Kimber Stainless Pro Raptor II. The Wife & I took Basic Pistol and qualified using the Glock 19 during CHL qualificationTraining. Instructor said don't use any ammunition with an animal's name & stay away from "White Box" and anything made in China.

All shooting that I have done is at an indoor range using full metal jacket target loads, and when not at the range the Glock 19 is loaded & carried with Hornady Critical Defense in 9 mm. Haven't decided what to carry in my Kimber; owners manual says round nose bullets - does that negate hollow points?

When looking for ammunition I see:
9 mm
9 mm Luger
9 mm Luger +P
9 mm Luger (9 x 19 mm Parabellum)
9 x 19 mm Lug
Correct me if I am wrong, but all 9 mm are parabellum, & the +P is a little more powerful, & 9 x 19 mm is a European size & Luger is Luger.

Then there are the .45 caliber rounds...
45 ACP
45 ACP +P
45 Auto
45 Colt
45 Long Colt
45 GAP
45-70

There are more probably more descriptions/names, but what's the difference?

Buying range ammo at the range 1-box at a time is expensive & I will begin buying by the case soon. I know re-loading will be cheaper still, but I am not ready to do that yet.

What can I shoot in these guns?
__________________
Regards,

softouch
softouch is offline  
Old June 23, 2012, 08:39 AM   #2
JimPage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2010
Location: Rome, NY
Posts: 627
It is a bit confusing, I can recall when I was totally confused. Let me try to help some.

"When looking for ammunition I see:
9 mm
9 mm Luger
9 mm Luger +P
9 mm Luger (9 x 19 mm Parabellum)
9 x 19 mm Lug
Correct me if I am wrong, but all 9 mm are parabellum, & the +P is a little more powerful, & 9 x 19 mm is a European size & Luger is Luger."

You're almost right. Not all 9mm are the same. 9mm is the diameter of the bullet. the 19 refers to the length of the shell case (the brass). There are a few different lengths of shell casings so you must get the same length that your pistol is chambered for. It should be marked on the gun.

The 9x19 is the Luger, is the Parabellum, is the 9x19mm Lug. Don't use the +P unless the manufacturer specifically says the your gun is strong enough for it. Generally when people talk about the 9mm they mean the 9x19. But some guns are different but still "9mm." Be sure what you have.

--------------------------------
"Then there are the .45 caliber rounds...
45 ACP
45 ACP +P
45 Auto
45 Colt
45 Long Colt
45 GAP
45-70"

This is different. .45 refers to bullet diameter in inches. ACP stands for 'Automatic Colt Pistol'. The 45 ACP, 45 Auto are the same. The 45 ACP +P is the same size bullet and shell casing (brass) but loaded with more power. Like the 9mm +P you must be sure your gun is made to handle the extra pressure.

The 45 Colt and 45 Long Colt are the same. They are rimmed cartridges that are designed for revolvers. They are more powerful than the the 45 ACP.

The 45 GAP is made for semi automatic pistols and is NOT the same as the 45 ACP. The case is shorter and is more powerful than the 45 ACP. This cartridge seems to lagging in popularity and I predict if will fade into the the realm of rare pretty soon.

The 45-70 is an old cartridge that is designed for rifles and is a very powerful round. You won't be able to get that into your pistol. How it was named is not material to your question and would just be confusing without a couple of pages of information.

I hope I have helped you. I'm confident someone will jump in and tell you and me if I made any errors.
__________________
Jim Page

Cogito, ergo armatum sum
JimPage is offline  
Old June 23, 2012, 09:09 AM   #3
jmhyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 19, 2012
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 136
Good info from Jim.

As for what the instructor said about brands/makes...

He was likely referring to Wolf and/or Bear ammo. It's not necessarily bad stuff for target shooting. It's said to be "dirtier" in terms of fouling your weapon and may, therefore, require a little more elbow grease when cleaning. Also, a lot of that ammo isn't brass-cased and some autos aren't the best at ejecting the non-brass-cased ammo. I think it's fine to try and see how you and your gun like it. It's certainly less expensive. I've shot it on occcasion and it performed fine in my XD, M&P, and PPS handguns.

I don't know what ammo is made in China, but I would stay clear of it just out of principle alone.

As to the "white box", I assume he was referring to Winchester white box ammo. My experience has been wonderful with this ammo and I don't really know why he seemed biased against it. It has always performed great for me. I even have some of the jacketed hollow points in this brand. They are cheaper than the highly-marketed "self defense" rounds, but I've read nothing but good things about performance of the bullet itself.
jmhyer is offline  
Old June 23, 2012, 09:13 AM   #4
carguychris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Posts: 5,403
Quote:
Haven't decided what to carry in my Kimber; owners manual says round nose bullets - does that negate hollow points?
I don't own a Kimber and I don't know much specifically about them. However, I suspect that it's OK to use hollow points that approximate the shape of a traditional FMJ round (e.g. 230gr Speer Gold Dots or Winchester Rangers) rather than a truncated cone shape (e.g. Hornady 185gr Critical Defense). I bet this is the intent of the factory advisory. Many older automatics were optimized for FMJ ball and will choke on truncated cone or semiwadcutter bullets; this is unusual for a newer pistol, but not unheard of.

Keep in mind that ANY self-defense ammo for ANY pistol should always be tested for function before the pistol goes in your holster or on your nightstand.
__________________
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak
carguychris is offline  
Old June 23, 2012, 09:19 AM   #5
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 4,213
Quote:
As to the "white box", I assume he was referring to Winchester white box ammo. My experience has been wonderful with this ammo and I don't really know why he seemed biased against it. It has always performed great for me. I even have some of the jacketed hollow points in this brand. They are cheaper than the highly-marketed "self defense" rounds, but I've read nothing but good things about performance of the bullet itself.
My experience has been the exact opposite. I have found WWB to be very dirty. I have also found it to have numerous rounds where the bullet was poorly seated in the case leaving me with a bullet that won't chamber and instead gets mashed into the chamber opening. I do think their QC has been improving a bit lately, but for me personally I stay clear. I have never had any issues with Federal Champion so I stick with that, even though to be fair it does seem lower powered. You'll find when it comes to ammo that people will recommend what they've had the best luck with. It's only natural. You might have different luck though.

As far as WWB hollow points, I personally would not carry these for self defense. I would rather pay the premium for a Speer Gold Dot or Federal HST. It's worth it to me.
__________________
Guns don't kill people. Apes with guns kill people! - Robin Williams
TunnelRat is offline  
Old June 23, 2012, 09:32 AM   #6
carguychris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Posts: 5,403
Mandatory note re: "9mm"...

9x17mm, 9mm Browning, and 9mm Short, Kurz (German), or Corto (Italian/Spanish) are European names for the cartridge sold in America as .380ACP. These names may be found on some .380ACP ammo from Europe.

9x18mm Makarov is a slightly shorter but larger-caliber cartridge used in former Eastern Bloc military handguns. It has an increasing presence in the USA due to large numbers of recently-imported milsurp handguns chambered for it. It is NOT compatible with 9x19mm.

There are numerous other 9mm auto pistol cartridges, but most of them are obsolescent and/or rare enough in the USA that you probably won't get them confused with 9x19mm by accident.
__________________
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak
carguychris is offline  
Old June 23, 2012, 09:35 AM   #7
RBid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 10, 2012
Posts: 1,054
More:

9mm NATO is the same size (9x19) as Luger/parabellum. Load pressure is slightly different, but you can shoot either just the same.

9x18 is probably the 'European' 9mm you were thinking of. It is most commonly used in soviet pistols (Makarov, etc) I believe.


For SD ammo:

1. Test it for reliable feeding
2. Don't save money on SD ammo. Get the good stuff. I like Speer Gold Dots, but there are great products from other makers, too.
__________________
Currently Own: Beretta PX4 9mm, Glock 23 (Gen 4), Glock 19 (Gen 4) x2
RBid is offline  
Old June 23, 2012, 10:57 AM   #8
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 6,189
Let's see if yet another perspective can add to the confusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by softouch
When looking for ammunition I see:
9 mm
9 mm Luger
9 mm Luger +P
9 mm Luger (9 x 19 mm Parabellum)
9 x 19 mm Lug
Correct me if I am wrong, but all 9 mm are parabellum, & the +P is a little more powerful, & 9 x 19 mm is a European size & Luger is Luger.
Wrong.

All the 9mm cartridges you listed are the same physical dimensions and all can be fired in any firearm that says it is chambered for 9mm Luger or 9mm Parabellum. As discussed in your revolver thread, though, +P is more powerful and probably should not be fired in older firearms that aren't rated for +P ammo.

But ... your list doesn't include all the 9mm cartridges. The two others you might encounter are 9x18 (also called 9mm Makarov) and 9x17 (also called .380 ACP or .380 Automatic). The 9x18 Makarov is actually larger in diameter and won't chamber in a firearm intended for 9mm Luger, so that's not a concern. The 9x17 fires bullets of the same diameter as the 9mm Luger, but usually lighter in weight. The case is 2mm shorter. It is possible to chamber 9x17 ammunition in pistols designed for both 9mm Luger and .38 Super. It's not a good idea, for a variety of reasons, but it generally won't blow anything up. I have done it, intentionally, for testing purposes under controlled conditions.

With all that out of the way, by far the most prevalent of the three is 9mm Luger (in one of its several names), and if you walk into any gun shop and ask for "9mm" ammo ... that's what you're going to get.

Quote:
Then there are the .45 caliber rounds...
45 ACP
45 ACP +P
45 Auto
45 Colt
45 Long Colt
45 GAP
45-70
The "ACP" in .45 ACP stands for "Automatic Colt Pistol." The 1911 purists will tell you that there is no cartridge named .45 ACP, that the correct nomenclature is ".45 Automatic." So .45 ACP and .45 Auto are the same thing, and .45 ACP +P is just loaded to more power.

.45 Colt and ".45 Long Colt" are the same cartridge. It's the cartridge for the Model 1873 Colt Single Action Army revolver -- the cowboy six gun.

The .45 GAP is a cartridge created by Glock. "GAP" stands for "Glock Automatic Pistol." Glock found that their pistols in .45 Automatic were too big for people with small hands to shoot comfortably, so they decided to create a cartridge that fires the same bullet as .45 Automatic and has the same ballistics (velocity), but in the same (shorter) length as the 9mm Luger. So that's what it is. To get "standard" velocity out of the shorter cartridge, they had to load it to pressures pretty nearly what would be +P in .45 Automatic, so there is no +P in .45 GAP.

.45-70 is a rifle cartridge.

Quote:
I have a Glock 19 and a Kimber Stainless Pro Raptor II. The Wife & I took Basic Pistol and qualified using the Glock 19 during CHL qualificationTraining. Instructor said don't use any ammunition with an animal's name & stay away from "White Box" and anything made in China.
The "animal" stuff is eastern European or Russian and is usually steel cased. Steel cases can be very hard on extractors. I know people who use it and it seems to function for most of them. I shoot 1911s and I won't allow steel cased ammo near them. "White box" refers to the Winchester USA ammo sold at Wal-Mart (and other places). It comes in a white box, hence the name. It's a (comparatively) budget priced ammo. I've shot tens if not hundreds of thousands of rounds of the stuff, in practice and in competition, and I have not had one single problem with it. Never.

Quote:
All shooting that I have done is at an indoor range using full metal jacket target loads, and when not at the range the Glock 19 is loaded & carried with Hornady Critical Defense in 9 mm. Haven't decided what to carry in my Kimber; owners manual says round nose bullets - does that negate hollow points?
The 1911 was originally designed to fire round nose bullets. Some 1911s don't like hollow point and won't feed it. If yours will feed it -- you can use it. Just make sure you shoot enough to be certain it will feed reliably. How much is enough to prove this depends on who you ask. many instructors say 500 rounds -- personally, I'm good with 200. But that's 200 rounds of the same JHP ammo with zero malfunctions. One stoppage, and the count starts over.

FWIW, Remington Golden Saber is a JHP with a bullet shaped more like a FMJ projectile. Golden Sabers will often feed reliably in 1911s that choke on any other JHP ammo.

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; June 23, 2012 at 10:53 PM. Reason: Typo
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old June 23, 2012, 11:15 AM   #9
tahunua001
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 5,826
jimpage and aguila blanca both did a pretty thorough job of explaining everything. one that I haven't seen brought up yet however is 9MM NATO. there is some ammo floating out there marked NATO. IIRC its normally 124gr and loaded to near +p power but holds all the same dimensions as 9 para/9x19/luger.

not long ago I started picking up my 9mm brass so incase I ever decide to start reloading and I found one case that was marked 380. I about pooped a brick because for the most part I've been using once fired ammo I don't know which of my 3 9mms I fired 380 out of but then the scarier question occurred to me. was that loaded as 380 or was it loaded as 9mm? since then I've started looking at my ammo very closely before I load it.

also IIRC 45-70 denotes the amount of black powder charge for a round. even though the 45-70 was invented after smokeless powder became the norm, they still loaded it to the same power that you would expect from 70 grains of black powder. there is also 45-80, 45-90, 45-100 and 50-90 calibers that are all named for their diameter in inches and the black powder charge(even though they are not actually black powder).
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar.
I never said half the crap people said I did-Albert Einstein
You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin
Bean counters told me I couldn't fire a man for being in a wheelchair, did it anyway. Ramps are expensive.-Cave Johnson.
tahunua001 is offline  
Old June 23, 2012, 11:53 AM   #10
carguychris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Posts: 5,403
Quote:
9MM NATO...[is] normally 124gr and loaded to near +p power but holds all the same dimensions as 9 para/9x19/luger.
[EDIT: Pressure-related portion of post redacted because I was apparently incorrect. ]

The critical factor is that NATO specifies a minimum velocity in addition to a maximum pressure. Most commercial "Plinking/Target" loads are loaded well below maximum pressure to prevent someone from blowing up their poorly maintained relic with it, but 9mm NATO is loaded hot enough to do what 9mm is supposed to do, so it may feel pretty stout if you're accustomed to "fluffy" discount store 115gr practice ammo. [EDIT: Incorrect info redacted.]

NATO also has the following additional differences from commercial ammo:
  1. It's always loaded with a 124gr FMJ bullet (the previous post was correct)
  2. Rather than a "9mm LUGER" or "9mm PARA." headstamp, it has a cross-in-a-circle NATO symbol and a code denoting the manufacturer
  3. The primers are crimped in place to prevent them from shaking loose in the magazine during full-auto fire in a submachine gun
#3 is inconsequential to someone who exclusively shoots factory ammo, but the crimped primers can make it more difficult to reprime the cases for reloading. OTOH standard non-crimped 9mm Luger cases are like mixed-breed puppies, i.e. they're usually free to a good home.
__________________
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak

Last edited by carguychris; June 25, 2012 at 08:33 AM.
carguychris is offline  
Old June 23, 2012, 12:44 PM   #11
gunloony
Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2012
Posts: 97
Tahunua001 wrote
Quote:
...also IIRC 45-70 denotes the amount of black powder charge for a round. even though the 45-70 was invented after smokeless powder became the norm, they still loaded it to the same power that you would expect from 70 grains of black powder. there is also 45-80, 45-90, 45-100 and 50-90 calibers that are all named for their diameter in inches and the black powder charge(even though they are not actually black powder)...
Wrong on the smokeless powder comments. All the listed hyphenated cartridges were originally designed for black powder. The 50-90 I believe dates to late 1860s, the 45-70 was developed for the 1873 "trap door" Springfield rifle, and the others mentioned are of similar dates, 1870s - 1880s. It was around 1890 or later before smokeless powder came into general use. You are correct that in these cartridges the second number designates the charge of black powder. The cartridge designation was also sometimes extended to three numbers, eg. 45-70-500, where the third number designated the bullet weight in grains.
It should be noted that the "number following the hyphen indicates powder charge" rule does not always apply - one of the most common examples being 30-06 where the second number indicates year of adoption by the military.

Ain't cartridge nomenclature fun?
gunloony is offline  
Old June 23, 2012, 04:19 PM   #12
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 6,189
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunlooney
Ain't cartridge nomenclature fun?
Oh, yeah.

.44 caliber black powder is the same as .45 caliber in metallic cartridge ammo.

9mm uses the same diameter bullets for 9x17 and 9x19, but the 9x18 (still called a 9mm) uses a much larger bullet.

.38 Special and .357 Magnum are the exact same caliber (diameter).

.44-40, .44 Special and .44 Magnum fire bullets of .429" diameter.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg ...
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old June 23, 2012, 04:29 PM   #13
Coltman 77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 3, 2009
Location: NC
Posts: 1,244
Continue to do your research OP, we can't spoon feed you info. Google is your friend.

You sound like you're very new to handguns so I'd strongly suggest you get in touch with your local NRA chapter ( you're a member right? If not please join asap) and take some basic handgun courses.

Good luck.

Here's a definitive link for you to study OP:

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De..._FAQ/index.htm
__________________
"A man can be destroyed but not defeated".
Ernest Hemingway

Protect our 2nd Amendment Rights -- Join the NRA
Coltman 77 is offline  
Old June 23, 2012, 07:52 PM   #14
AndyWest
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2011
Posts: 621
TunnelRat said:

Quote:
I have found WWB to be very dirty. I have also found it to have numerous rounds where the bullet was poorly seated in the case leaving me with a bullet that won't chamber and instead gets mashed into the chamber opening. I do think their QC has been improving a bit lately, but for me personally I stay clear
100% my experience as well. I think we had a conversation about this in an older thread. I had a few boxes of WWB (Winchester in the White Box) with corroded casings and rounds that smashed back into the casing when feeding, where cheaper range rounds (e.g. PMC) did not. I'm sure their QC will improve but I'm avoiding it for a couple years.
__________________
Shoot smart. Shoot S-Mart.
AndyWest is offline  
Old June 23, 2012, 10:27 PM   #15
softouch
Junior Member
 
Join Date: April 24, 2012
Location: Here
Posts: 14
Confusion Over...

My questions have been answered very well & all of your replies are very much appreciated!
Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
__________________
Regards,

softouch
softouch is offline  
Old June 24, 2012, 04:01 AM   #16
Scimmia
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2011
Location: Eastern IA
Posts: 428
Quote:
FWIW it's a widely parroted myth that 9mm NATO is loaded to +P pressure; it's actually within standard pressure, although NATO uses CUP pressure units rather than PSI like SAAMI, so the pressure figures aren't exactly equivalent
Untrue. The NATO standards agreement document 4090 specifies the maximum allowable pressure as 265 MPa when measured with piezo-electric equipment. This translates directly to 38,435 PSI. 9mm +P tops out at 38,500 PSI. A individual government order may be lower pressure, but they certainly can be +P rounds.
Scimmia is offline  
Old June 24, 2012, 03:33 PM   #17
LarryFlew
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2009
Location: Minnesota CZ fan
Posts: 893
Kimber - yes on round nose but the mentioned HP rounds and any other with the same type of ogive as FMJ like Gold Dots will work just fine (GD's are what I use in my Kimbers)

9MM Nato - guns set up to use 9mm NATO will often shoot low if you are using 115 grain cartridges. IE CZ is one of them.
LarryFlew is offline  
Old June 24, 2012, 04:09 PM   #18
Coltman 77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 3, 2009
Location: NC
Posts: 1,244
Quote:
Untrue. The NATO standards agreement document 4090 specifies the maximum allowable pressure as 265 MPa when measured with piezo-electric equipment. This translates directly to 38,435 PSI. 9mm +P tops out at 38,500 PSI. A individual government order may be lower pressure, but they certainly can be +P rounds.
+1

Scimmia nailed it.

NATO 9mm ammo is very close to 124 gr. +P and makes for great range ammo.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/produc...124gr-fmj-ammo
__________________
"A man can be destroyed but not defeated".
Ernest Hemingway

Protect our 2nd Amendment Rights -- Join the NRA
Coltman 77 is offline  
Old June 24, 2012, 04:52 PM   #19
Cheapshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4,194
softouch, I'll give you some of the same advise as on the other thread, with a bit more information. As a newbie the $20 or so spent for this book would be invaluable, plus interesting reading. http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&rh=n...edition&page=1
__________________
Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!
Cheapshooter is offline  
Old June 24, 2012, 06:14 PM   #20
giaquir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2006
Location: Deerfield,New Hampshire
Posts: 398
I believe at one time there were 2 45 colt cartridges.
One shorter than the other to feed the ,45 Schofield.
The 45 Schofield cartridge had the head stamp
45 colt.
giaquir is offline  
Old June 24, 2012, 10:20 PM   #21
tahunua001
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 5,826
Quote:
My questions have been answered very well & all of your replies are very much appreciated!
Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
your welcome and welcome to the shooting club
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar.
I never said half the crap people said I did-Albert Einstein
You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin
Bean counters told me I couldn't fire a man for being in a wheelchair, did it anyway. Ramps are expensive.-Cave Johnson.
tahunua001 is offline  
Old June 25, 2012, 12:31 AM   #22
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 6,189
Quote:
Originally Posted by giaquir
I believe at one time there were 2 45 colt cartridges.
One shorter than the other to feed the ,45 Schofield.
The 45 Schofield cartridge had the head stamp
45 colt.
To "feed" the .45 Schofield? It was a revolver ... no feeding involved.

The Schofield round was never called ".45 Colt." Since it was a Smith & Wesson cartridge, that would have been unthinkable. It was called either .45 S&W, .45 S&W Schofield, or (in the military version) .45 M1877 ball revolver.

The M1877 round was Army standard issue, since it fit and functioned in both the S&W Schofield revolver and the Model 1873 Colt Single Action Army revolver. The Schofield revolver had a shorter cylinder than the SAA, so the original .45 Colt cartridge could not be used in both weapons.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old June 25, 2012, 10:05 AM   #23
iamdb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 13, 2011
Posts: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by carguychris
NATO also has the following additional differences from commercial ammo:

It's always loaded with a 124gr FMJ bullet (the previous post was correct)
Negative, Ghost rider. NATO is specified to tolerance. Projectile weight is from 108gr to 128gr.

US Armies load data for NATO M882, uses a 112gr. projectile, loaded with 6 grains of HPC 26 set to a COL of 1.165"
__________________
John 20:29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
iamdb is offline  
Old June 25, 2012, 10:30 AM   #24
tahunua001
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 5,826
the US does not load any of it's ammunition to NATO specs. they only carry rounds that can be fired by by NATO compliant countries.
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar.
I never said half the crap people said I did-Albert Einstein
You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin
Bean counters told me I couldn't fire a man for being in a wheelchair, did it anyway. Ramps are expensive.-Cave Johnson.
tahunua001 is offline  
Old June 25, 2012, 10:37 AM   #25
iamdb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 13, 2011
Posts: 424
Quote:
the US does not load any of it's ammunition to NATO specs. they only carry rounds that can be fired by by NATO compliant countries.
huh?
NATO has specified guidelines for ammo. US Military uses NATO specifications for it's own use. The military contracts companies to assemble the ammo for use by it's soldiers. This is all according to military manuals. Anything else is speculation.

The M882 data is directly from the Army manual.
__________________
John 20:29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Last edited by iamdb; June 25, 2012 at 10:42 AM.
iamdb is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13979 seconds with 7 queries