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Old June 15, 2012, 11:52 AM   #1
buckhorn
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Does a cylinder-turn ring mean your gun has timing issues

I hate cylinder turn rings and when I start noticing them on a new revolver I start thinking "Timing issue". I know this is not usually the cause. I've seen many fine guns in books and forum/inter-net with noticeble turn rings. I know S+W are more apt to rings because of the way the bolt comes in. And yet ,I've seen lots of old S+W with minimum to no rings. What is a good way to minimize the rings. I know dry firing adds to the problem, and they are considered by some to be sort of a 'Badge of Honor". I've heard the response, "If you don't like 'em don't shoot the gun." Can a Hard wax, for instance, slighten the problem? When I look at used guns at a gun show, for instance, the S+W always have the turn rings, although the Colts I've handled, not so much. All of my guns are now single action Colts of some type, Although I've had D/A S+W in the past and may in the future.

Last edited by buckhorn; June 15, 2012 at 12:00 PM.
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Old June 15, 2012, 12:38 PM   #2
Hawg Haggen
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If you have turn rings on a SAA it means you've been letting the hammer down from half cock which lets the bolt ride on the face of the cylinder. They pretty much go with the territory on a DA tho.
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Old June 15, 2012, 01:22 PM   #3
zullo74
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That's a load of horse dung. It's not the only reason. I never do that and some of my revolvers still get a slight drag mark. It IS a sign of less than perfect timing. It can be lessened by decreasing the spring tension on the bolt spring slightly.
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Old June 15, 2012, 09:13 PM   #4
mykeal
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Hawg is correct. While it's not the only reason (you might go back and read his post again; he never said it was the only reason) the vast majority of the time a cylinder turn ring on a SA revolver is due to letting the hammer down from half cock. Just think about how the action works and you can see how it happens.

In half cock the bolt is retracted into the frame and held there against the trigger/bolt spring by the bolt leg being on the hammer cam and pushed up. the cylinder is, of course, free to rotate in a clockwise direction. If you then pull the trigger out of the half cock notch and let the hammer down it will allow the bolt leg to fall as the hammer drops, raising the bolt through the frame and onto the cylinder surface; any rotation of the cylinder back or forward into battery is not resisted until the bolt drops into the first cylinder stop notch it encounters. The trigger/bolt spring will hold the bolt head on the cylinder surface, creating the turn line the whole time.

The only way to prevent the turn line when dropping the hammer is to manually position the cylinder in battery before dropping the hammer and hold it there until the hammer is fully down.

Yes, a turn line can be caused by imperfect timing, but in that case it's an incomplete line - just a short line leading into the stop notch, not a complete line around the cylinder. Unless, of course, the bolt leg is badly bent or broken.
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Old June 15, 2012, 10:00 PM   #5
zullo74
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Quote:
If you have turn rings on a SAA it means you've been letting the hammer down from half cock which lets the bolt ride on the face of the cylinder.
That IS what he said.
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Old June 16, 2012, 09:08 AM   #6
noelf2
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It certainly could be a malfunction or timing issue, but the likely suspect is improper handling. That said, if I see a SA revolver at gun shows or such, and they have the cylinder ring, I don't just assume it was improper handling. I look for timing issues.
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Old June 16, 2012, 11:27 AM   #7
buckhorn
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cylinder turn rings

So, if I got it correctly, keep your hammer on half-cock , and then place the cylinder into a position where bolt comes up into cylinder notch. Thanks Hawg and Mykeal, your explainations make sense. Timing isn't the issue, as none of guns shows signs of lead shavings, just those durn turn rings. If you use a black sharpie, you can get rid of most of them closest to the cylinder notch.
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Old June 16, 2012, 12:21 PM   #8
Hawg Haggen
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That's a load of horse dung.
99.9% of the time it's improper handling. Call it horse dung if ya want. No skin off my nose either way.
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Old June 16, 2012, 02:17 PM   #9
zullo74
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I will.
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Old June 19, 2012, 09:09 PM   #10
Shotput79
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buckhorn I been having the same problem but with Dragoon. It has a ring going around the cylinder also. I've only fired 48 rds through it. Thinks Hawg and the rest of you guys for giving us an idea of what to look for.
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Old June 19, 2012, 09:29 PM   #11
Hawg Haggen
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This is my oldest SA. It was made in 2000 and has seen a lot of use. A LOT of use.

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Old June 20, 2012, 01:35 AM   #12
Bill Akins
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In addition to lowering the hammer from half cock when the cylinder is not in battery, it could also be the bolt stop is not fitted well. Sometimes it takes a little filing with a jeweler's file to fit some parts depending on where you got the parts from and who made them. Some drop in and work perfect and some don't. So one of the options it could be, is that the bolt stop is rising too early because it is too tall. But that should only make a ring somewhat close to the lead in notch that is cut so the bolt can rise without scoring the cylinder just before it locks into the bolt stop slots. It shouldn't put a ring around the entire cylinder unless the bolt never totally retracted all the way down into the frame and the cylinder was spun against it, which goes back to what Hawg was saying. Another thing it could be is this.....

There is a slight incline made on the bolt stop so that as it rises, that inclined area rises up hopefully perfectly into the lead in notch cut just before the cylinder stop slot. The incline on the bolt is so that as the bolt rises as the cylinder turns, the bolt's inclined beveled edge is supposed to miss the cylinder and only allow the bolt to ride into the lead in notch and not ring the cylinder.

Sometimes you have to do a little filing/polishing on that beveled incline on the bolt. Not necessarily just the top of the bolt, but on the side where the incline is and maybe just a teeeny bit on the top only if it needs it. Hand fitting like this can solve a lot of problems.

Another thing it can be is that your cam on your hammer is worn and causing the leg of the bolt spring to cam off too early, thus causing your bolt to drop too soon and score the cylinder. I had that happen to one of my Pietta 1860's. Most here thought it was something else causing the ringing and were surprised when I changed out the hammer for a new hammer with a new cam and it fixed it and the ringing stopped. Inspect your hammer cam for wear.

It was mentioned that you could lighten the tension on the bolt spring leg by loosening the screw. The bolt spring screw should be tightened all the way down or else it could work loose....unless you use locktite....which is an option.

Hawg gave you one of the very common reasons for the "ringing". But there could be other reasons for the ringing too. Hawg's attempt to be helpful in giving you one of the common reasons for "ringing" does not deserve to be called "horse dung" by another member (not you) and we should all strive to be polite in our interactions with our friends and fellow shooters here. There are more polite ways to say things and rudeness is unnecessary. Of course everyone has a bad day here and there and we all fall short of saying things perfectly some times. Anyway.....

After my experience with the very worn hammer cam on my 1860, the first thing I'd check is the cam on my hammer to see when the cam allows the spring leg to drop and thus drop the bolt possibly prematurely, which would cause ringing/scoring of the cylinder, sometimes very badly. If someone had cocked the revolver fast and a WHOLE lot like I did during unloaded twirling and practice with my 1860 (no dry snapping though on the nipples) that could certainly wear out the hammer cam prematurely and cause bad ringing and outright scoring of the cylinder to where it is ugly. That's what happened to me that I fixed with a new hammer and hammer cam and new stainless (like) fluted cylinder. So check that hammer cam. You can just replace the cam in the hammer and they are available separately like that. But the cam is a pain to line up perfectly and then to pressure fit press into the hammer. If your hammer cam is badly worn, you are better off just getting a brand new hammer with the new cam in it unless there is something special about your hammer that makes you want to keep it. My hammer was gold tone on my nickle 1860. I still replaced it with a case hardened hammer. Part of the problem of my hammer cam may have been that it WASN'T case hardened properly.

In addition to taking the hammer out and inspecting its cam, another way to quickly check if your hammer cam is possibly worn, is to take the cylinder out of the revolver. Now SLOWLY very SLOWLY cock the revolver. The bolt should drop (pop up) just before the hammer comes to full cock. If the bolt drops quite a bit before the hammer is at full cock, then your hammer cam may be worn out causing the leg of the bolt spring to slip off the cam prematurely and thus dropping the bolt too early, which is what happened to me and scored my cylinder a good half inch before each of my lead in cuts.

You can also do that same check with the cylinder on the revolver. Slowly cock it, the bolt should drop just a little tad before the cylinder is fully in battery (hammer at full cock). Listen for the click of the bolt dropping and see when it does in relation to how close your cylinder is in battery (lined up with the forcing cone).

One other thing to think about in adjusting timing is how you shoot. If you cock the revolver very slowly each time, then you will want your bolt to start to drop right in the lead in notch. If you cock the revolver very fast, you have to adjust the timing so the bolt will drop a little sooner, because if you cock it fast and it is timed for slow cocking, then it is possible that your cylinder could turn so rapidly and "overtravel" that its inertia spins it past the cylinder's slot before the bolt can drop into said slot.

Hope this helped you .


.
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Last edited by Bill Akins; June 20, 2012 at 02:29 AM.
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Old June 20, 2012, 03:34 AM   #13
Hawg Haggen
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Zullo is entitled to his opinion and I stand by what I said that most of the time a cylinder ring is caused by mishandling.
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Old June 20, 2012, 05:58 AM   #14
mykeal
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Yes, he is entitled to his opinion, and he's certainly entitled, even invited, to express his opinion. He is not entitled to calling other people's opinions 'horse dung'. Name calling is the hallmark of a poor intellect; it marks him as someone whose opinion isn't worth considering. Hopefully he'll come to understand that some day.
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Old June 20, 2012, 06:13 AM   #15
Bill Akins
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I've seen this internet phenomenon on numerous occasions. Another case of someone trying to be nice and helpful but "perhaps" not saying what they meant in a non absolute way and then afterwards thinking they said something totally different from what they actually did,....coupled with someone taking umbrage to their absolute statement and ill advisedly being rude about it by calling it "horse dung".

It's a misunderstanding phenomenon caused by miscommunication.

Here's what just happened.

This is actually what you originally wrote Hawg.....

"If you have turn rings on a SAA it means you've been letting the hammer down from half cock which lets the bolt ride on the face of the cylinder. They pretty much go with the territory on a DA tho."

As you see Hawg, you didn't originally say...."I stand by what I said that most of the time a cylinder ring is caused by mishandling."
"Most of the time" was not in your original statement. You stated an absolute not a possibility Hawg. You may not have meant to do that, but that's what you wrote when you said...."If you have turn rings on a SAA it means you've been letting the hammer down from half cock which lets the bolt ride on the face of the cylinder."
When you wrote...."it means", you stated an absolute as if there was no other possibility. You may not have said there was no other possibility, but you certainly "seemed" to intimate and inferr it by your saying "It means" as if there were no other "meaning" or possibility.

Then Zullo was a bit rude about your absolute statement calling it "horse dung". Kind of an uncalled for rude comment where he showed umbrage and "in my opinion" overreacted to your absolute statement that "perhaps" "might have" been better served by being just a possibility statement instead of an absolute statement which left no other possibilities open as options.

Next Zullo posted exactly what you said Hawg.

Then I tried to politely show how other possibilities also existed for cylinder ringing, then Hawg you said you stood by what you said is the cause "most of the time"....but you never wrote "most of the time" in your original statement that prompted Zullo to rudely call it "horse dung".

In a way it is a comedy of errors seeing this happen so often on the internet.
But even if humorous sometimes, it is a miscommunication that can cause arguments akin to a wife telling a husband...."You didn't say that"...husband...."yes I did"....wife...."no you didn't"....then they argue about it. But in the case of the internet we can see what the person said and there is no logical argument possible that they said otherwise. They "may" have meant otherwise, but all we know is what they write. We cannot be inside that person's head (which is an absolute statement with no possibility of other options).

I've been criticized a few times for the length of my posts. Do you know why my posts are "often", "sometimes" long? Because I try to be very careful with what I say and to include details and make sure my points, subject and words will not be misunderstood and taken the wrong way. In short, (if I can write anything shortly Lol)....I overwrite to try to make myself as clear as possible and to cover my bases by trying to carefully avoid absolutes unless I can show evidence and prove something is absolute and no other possibilities exist except for that absolute statement. And even then ANYTHING is open to debate and argument once an absolute is stated. So I try to avoid making absolute statements.

I TRY to stay away from absolutes and instead I try to use terms like "often", "commonly", "in my experience", "usually", "I think", "I believe", "in my opinion", "numerous", "sometimes", "seems to me", "many times", "perhaps".........unless I am absolutely sure what I am saying is the only possible absolute which is not "usually" the most "common" occurrence "I believe".

Using those terms and terms like that, gives you an out in that you aren't stating an absolute that someone can argue with. If they try, you can point out that you originally said something like...."commonly", "often times", "I believe", "in my opinion", "many times", etc, etc. It took a long time for me to learn this through trial and error. And it causes my posts to "often times", "in some people's opinion", to "perhaps", "seem", long.

Not trying to tell anyone how to write. Just pointing out "in my opinion", "what works for me" "usually". Which is "commonly" why my posts may "seem" long to some, "while others may have a different opinion".

When these type of terms are used, it's difficult for someone to argue with them because you didn't state an absolute. You stated "possibilities" and "opinions", based upon what you "believe" or "think" and what is "your experience". No one can ARGUE with what your "experience" is. They can only offer what THEIR experience is "for what it's worth". Then there is no argument.

"I believe" this "might" "possibly" be a good idea to be taught in communication skills in school. It "may" enable people to "hopefully" communicate more effectively without arguing. "Could be" a handy tool for "most people" to learn to use "I believe" "in my opinion". It "might", "perhaps" avoid future misunderstandings, mis-statements and miscommunications....."for the most part"....."possibly".

"Some" people "may" be able to read between the lines and "possibly" understand what we mean even if we didn't say it exactly correctly. But others "seem" to not have that ability "in my opinion". For those reasons and for clarity "sometimes" my posts "may", "often", "seem", long "to some".

Miscommunication can "often", "usually", "in many cases", "perhaps" be fixed and arguments forestalled by carefully thinking of the choice of words to use. But impoliteness and rudeness that is uncalled for and unnecessary? That's a whole different kettle of fish "in my opinion". I'd have to charge to analyze that.

The point is, we can strive toward communicating better what we actually want to say, attempt to forestall arguments by not stating absolutes if they are not absolutes, and since we are all brothers and sisters of the gun here, we can also strive to realize everyone has different communication skills and cut each other some slack and not be rude and impolite if they don't communicate exactly the way we think they should.

See? Another "possibly" long ("to some people") post of mine. But "perhaps" I was clear and got my points across, "hopefully".



.
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"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; June 20, 2012 at 11:00 AM.
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Old June 20, 2012, 09:41 AM   #16
Hawg Haggen
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Quote:
As you see Hawg, you didn't originally say...."I stand by what I said that most of the time a cylinder ring is caused by mishandling."
"Most of the time" was not in your original statement. You stated an absolute not a possibility Hawg. You may not have meant to do that, but that's what you wrote when you said...."If you have turn rings on a SAA it means you've been letting the hammer down from half cock which lets the bolt ride on the face of the cylinder."
When you wrote...."it means", you stated an absolute as if there was no other possibility. You may not have said there was no other possibility, but you certainly "seemed" to intimate and inferr it by your saying "It means" as if there were no other "meaning" or possibility.
Yeah I said 99.9% of the time in response to the horse dung comment but hey, these days I hurt so much and stay half assed doped up so I don't even know what forum I'm on half the time, let alone remember something I said or how I meant it.
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Old June 20, 2012, 10:04 AM   #17
noelf2
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Dang, Bill ! Try to keep it below 500 words for pete's sake...
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Old June 20, 2012, 10:22 AM   #18
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Clear communication must also be concise, otherwise people won't take the time to read it.
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Old June 20, 2012, 04:16 PM   #19
buckhorn
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I figured it out with a lot of help from you guys. If you let your hammer down from half cock, and then turn the cylinder until the bolt catches a notch, you're going to have cylinder rings. HOWEVER, if the Bolt comes up into a cylinder notch it won't cause rings. You just got to pay attention and make sure there is a notch right above the bolt to go into. Don't ever just spin your cylinder and then let your hammer down while it's still in montion. I've seen a lot of guys do that. {I used to be one until I had to ante-up for a new cylinder because the old one looked so bad.]
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Old June 20, 2012, 07:33 PM   #20
James K
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A properly tuned SAA (or clone) will drop the bolt into the leade (that triangle-shaped cut just ahead of the cylinder notch) not onto the cylinder itself. Regardless, and even if you violate Hawg's law, there are some things can be done to minimize wear. One is to make sure the bolt has no sharp edges; some come from the factories with edges that can cut paper, not to mention a cylinder. Another is to reduce the bolt spring tension. That can mean feathering the spring, or replacing it with a wire spring, or putting a spacer under it.

Something not to do is to round the top of the bolt ball. They are made with an angle to ride up into the cylinder notch. Rounding them off can lead to throwby or even to the cylinder rotating backward as the hand comes down.

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Old June 20, 2012, 08:43 PM   #21
Daggitt
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I am really glad we don't have people on here going off on each other like a bunch of children over some trivial nonsense about revolver timing. I'd feel terrible if I thought that kind of thing was going on.( Thanks for letting me get that off my chest.)
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