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Old June 17, 2012, 07:35 PM   #1
Amsdorf
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Shotgun mythbusting chapter two

The myth I'm busting in this video series is that you don't have to aim a shotgun but can simply Rambo it from the hip.

Based on comments received, I shot a "Chapter Two" showing an example of hip shooting and aimed shooting, using 00 Buck.

In a self-defense situation, when you are using 00 Buck, inside your home, where you do NOT want stray pellets penetrating into other rooms, or even other houses, you must aim your shotgun, that is, shoulder it and sight it, not simply rely on point-shooting from your hip.

So, here you go. As far as I'm concerned the myth is busted.

What do you think? Take a look and let me know.

"You Don't Have to Aim a Shotgun"
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Old June 18, 2012, 11:13 AM   #2
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What do you think?
The fact that you rapid fired, hip shot your shotgun has very little to do with your previous thread of aiming versus pointing a shotgun.

Last edited by shortwave; June 18, 2012 at 08:08 PM.
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Old June 18, 2012, 12:07 PM   #3
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The outcome should have been obvious but thanks for your effort.
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Old June 18, 2012, 12:24 PM   #4
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Interesting reactions, thanks.
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Old June 18, 2012, 02:50 PM   #5
Dave McC
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Thanks, Paul. Unlike so many, you took the time and effort to test things out.

And your results were predictable.

Hip shooting is egregious at more than contact distance.

Aiming produces much better results.

And maybe some of the nay sayers should back away from the keyboards, hit the range and make their OWN videos to rebutt, reinforce or co-oberate your results.....
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Old June 18, 2012, 03:38 PM   #6
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Dave, thanks...

I'm learning to take silly comments in stride as part for the course, and negative comments as well, though if it a thoughtful negative remark you can sometimes learn from it.

Constructive criticism, however, is always welcome.
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Old June 18, 2012, 03:45 PM   #7
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What got under the skin of some, like me, was that you seemed to challenge the utiity of point shooting. If what you meant that some kind of directed fire was needed was needed, the more accurate the better, I think all would agree with you.
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Old June 18, 2012, 04:18 PM   #8
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The results may have been predictable, but I can't even count how many people I've met over the years who think hip shooting a shotgun, especially one with a pistol grip instead of a buttstock, is the easiest thing in the world.

I watched a jackass put three rounds into the ceiling at the range where I used to work before I could get onto the range to stop him. Young punk who thought he knew it all. When he popped off at me I booted him off the range and out of the store.

I regularly see people trying this at the ranges I go to, so obviously someone thinks its easy and this video would be something new for them.


Last thing I'll say is this. If you don't have something constructive and engaging to say, then you don't have any reason to be posting in this thread.

If you think a snide comment is constructive and engaging, I'll be MORE than happy to show you how it's not.
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Old June 18, 2012, 04:33 PM   #9
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Quote:
Thanks, Paul. Unlike so many, you took the time and effort to test things out.

And your results were predictable.

Hip shooting is egregious at more than contact distance.

Aiming produces much better results.

And maybe some of the nay sayers should back away from the keyboards, hit the range and make their OWN videos to rebutt, reinforce or co-oberate your results.....
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While shooting from the hip is best left to Hollywood stars, aiming vs pointing still is the question.

Just because someone makes a video on the net, doe NOT make it gospel, and Dave, of ANY one here, you should be first in that line of agreement

But then I disagree with Chuck Hawks and others who feel a 12" LOP and scrunching up on a shotgun is the way to go - there is WAY too much data to disprove that line of thinking
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Old June 18, 2012, 07:45 PM   #10
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While shooting from the hip is best left to Hollywood stars, aiming vs pointing still is the question.
The exact and only reason I responded to this post.

I believe it's common sense that most everyone would shoot better shouldering a shotgun versus hip shooting.

This video proves the fact that the OP can shoulder his shotgun and aim, better then he can hip shoot. That would be true for most but does not in any way dis-spell any myths about point shooting versus aiming.
Course, unless one considers point shooting as shooting from the hip and I don't think any of the point shooters who have commented on either thread were referring to hip shooting as point shooting.

Sooo....I guess my question to the OP for clarification is:

....in your first as well as this thread, were/are you referring to hip shooting as point shooting?

Last edited by shortwave; June 18, 2012 at 08:09 PM.
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Old June 18, 2012, 08:50 PM   #11
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Honestly, I think my point is clear enough. Here and elsewhere people have insisted that they can, with absolute certainty, under a high stress situation, shoot their shotgun from the hip, and yes, they have said they would use their "point shooting" skill acquired by shooting birds or clays.

My concern remains that people not make the mistake of thinking that the shotgun pattern is such that they will be able to spray and pray from the hip, hopeful that they will knock the bad guy down.

My first video showed how a shotgun patterns shooting 00 buck even out to unrealistically far HD distances, and the closer you get, the tighter the pattern.

I went on then to say, and show, that you need to aim the weapon to make absolutely sure that relatively tight pattern of highly lethal 00Buck hits your target, not most of the pellets, all of them, so that you do not send a pellet into a loved one in another room, or a neighbor in another apartment or even a house close to yours.
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Old June 18, 2012, 09:28 PM   #12
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Honestly, I think my point is clear enough. Here and elsewhere people have insisted that they can, with absolute certainty, under a high stress situation, shoot their shotgun from the hip, and yes, they have said they would use their "point shooting" skill acquired by shooting birds or clays.
When you said that, Amsdorf, were you talking about the below post by Zippy?

Quote:
With training, you can accurately point a shotgun without having it mounted. This might be useful in a HD situation. How do you think the exhibition shooters pull off all those crazy shots? It's not magic, it's with dismounted pointing.
Neither that nor anything else I have seen posted by anyone anywhere even comes close to having insisted that they can, with absolute certainty, under a high stress situation, shoot their shotgun from the hip, and yes, they have said they would use their "point shooting" skill acquired by shooting birds or clays I am sorry, but it almost sounds as though you make up myths that don't exist so you have something to bust.
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Old June 18, 2012, 09:40 PM   #13
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Thanks for sharing your opinions.
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Old June 18, 2012, 09:42 PM   #14
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Here and elsewhere people have insisted that they can, with absolute certainty, under a high stress situation, shoot their shotgun from the hip,
As I went back to closed 'chapter one' and read through the pages, unless I missed something, I did not read anyone promoting shooting from the hip in a SD situation. Please quote post if I missed it. Nor have I ever heard anyone(other then the movies)promoting such.
The first mention of shooting from the hip was you in post #3.

Then the discussion pursued the art of point shooting versus aiming. Which are two different ways of shooting a shotgun and IMO, still not addressed.


This is the reason I asked the question to you if you are calling hip shooting point shooting since your 'chapter two' is showing hip shooting versus aiming.

Again, thanks for the vid. but it does not address pointing versus aiming a shotgun.
Too, I assure you, at SD distance, if I'm in a blacked out area(can't see my sights) and an I.D.'ed BG is silhouetted, my point shooting from the shoulder will suffice.

One more question, what choke were you using in your vids?

Last edited by shortwave; June 18, 2012 at 09:54 PM.
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Old June 19, 2012, 10:16 AM   #15
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Couldn't one fire a shotgun from the hip with reasonable accuracy if using a laser sight? Or at least a mounted tactical flashlight, using the beam to help aim?

(Hopefully this will be considered "constructive")
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Old June 19, 2012, 10:44 AM   #16
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Yes, absolutely, using a laser to aim the shotgun makes it possible to be highly accurate shooting it from the hip, or from your little toe!

Seriously, it is a great tool.

I use a Crimson Trace laser grip on my EDC precisely for this purpose.

But, of course, using a laser dot would definitely be "aiming" it no simply spraying and praying from the hip.

I'd be much less sure of simply relying on a flashlight beam.
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Old June 19, 2012, 12:16 PM   #17
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"so obviously someone thinks its easy"

Certainly not easy, but not impossible for the very talented who have practiced it at length. Are those talented individuals a myth? Was I dreaming I saw them do it?

John
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Old June 19, 2012, 01:24 PM   #18
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Reminder:

Point of the video was to show people who are unfamiliar with the shotgun and how it works NOT to believe the myth that you can simply spray and pray and hope to hit your target and NOT hit unintended targets.

And, as for point shooting from the hip, of course, it is possible, but one would have to be a highly trained and skilled shotgun operator to trust those skills will all come into play on a dark and stormy night with bad guys in the house.
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Old June 19, 2012, 01:25 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Amsdorf
The myth I'm busting in this video series is that you don't have to aim a shotgun but can simply Rambo it from the hip.
That may be a myth shared at the Mall Ninja Forum, but I'm guessing the TFL members are a little more in touch with reality. Of course, pointing from the hip takes practice -- perhaps more practice than aiming a mounted gun.

Your video only showed that you can't hip shoot very well with that Benelli. The very first thing I noticed, in your introduction, was the gun you selected is designed for aiming and not for pointing (talk about bias). With an appropriate gun, techniques and practice you could be placing your first shot on target pointing from the hip.

What are you going to do, in a SD environment, if you confront someone who is a competent pointer and you don't have your gun mounted? You won't have time to align those fancy sights. Too many newer shooters believe MIL/LE guns and tacti-cool accessories are a viable substitute for comprehensive training.

I've mentioned this previously: Adding a light to your HD gun makes you a target. Why not spend the ca$h on a whole house lighting control system? It's useful everyday, not just in HD situations.
Quote:
In a self-defense situation, when you are using 00 Buck, inside your home, where you do NOT want stray pellets penetrating into other rooms, or even other houses, you must aim your shotgun, that is, shoulder it and sight it, not simply rely on point-shooting from your hip.
Is that really your reasoning? A simpler answer is to use smaller shot, and not rely on your perfect aim and fat BGs. How are you going to tell your neighbor, "Sorry, I hit your child, I was using 00-Buck and the BG ducked."? And, don't rely on the BG stopping your pellets. It's my experience, a 00-Buck pellet may still be lethal after passing a fleshy mass.
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Old June 19, 2012, 01:41 PM   #20
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Zippy makes a good point. What you really showed in the video is that you need more practice hip shooting. I agree that the spray-and-pray method is bad. However there is no reason that a we'll trained person shooting from the hip can't be effectively accurate at HD ranges.
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Old June 19, 2012, 01:58 PM   #21
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However there is no reason that a we'll trained person shooting from the hip can't be effectively accurate at HD ranges.
Sure there is....because no WELL-trained person is going to use that methodology.......

Hip shooting is great in Hollywood movies, as is the spray and pray methodology used in video games

Unfortunately, life is neither a Hollywood movie or a video game - there is no "do-over" switch when something goes wrong

Anyone with any modicum of balance and coordination can reflexively point better than aim and do it faster - do it home with your off-trigger hand's index finger and eyes closed to point to a spot on a wall like a light switch - then close your eyes and get you red-dot tacky-cooled shotgun and try to do the same as fast. That time you spend trying to focus your eye through the scope will usually mean you're dead in a real time scenario
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Old June 19, 2012, 04:23 PM   #22
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Thanks, OneOunce.

And as for "red dot" if I'm not mistaken I think what people are referring to is not a red dot scope, but a laser aiming system, throwing a red laser dot down range.

I can see that being a very effective way to engage a target, accurately, and very quickly.
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Old June 19, 2012, 04:37 PM   #23
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To an old school shotgunner, Red Dot is a brand of propellant, and a registered trademark of Alliant Powder.
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Old June 19, 2012, 04:46 PM   #24
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Years ago we was shooting clays with a 410 single shot. My good cousin Tanna (A girl) took the gun, aimed it to the sky said pull, turned her head, closed her eyes and powdered that clay wish I had a vid but that wasnt around in 1968 as it is today. So what does this tell us? turn the head and close the eyes will do it? Nah, means she was one lucky gal that day

I hunt a lot, shoot a lot of wild pheas and quail. Bird flushes I dont focus on that little bead on the end of the barrel. Eyes are on the game, gun naturally swings, shot hits the game kills it dead. That is how its done. Learn it, live it, enjoy it.
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Old June 19, 2012, 05:00 PM   #25
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There's an older fellow who has videos of himself shooting clay birds from the hip.
He rarely misses them.
On the other hand, the last time I was at the range, there was a young fellow trying it, and he couldn't hit a stationary, 30" square cardboard target, from 25 yds.
Like most things, how successful it is depends on who is doing it.
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