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Old June 30, 2012, 08:19 AM   #76
spodwo
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Of the 3 plastic 9mms I have M&P, Glock and Caracal the Glock is my least favorite for feel. It is also the pistol that I don't shoot as well as the other two. The Caracal from day one was inherently a more accurate pistol in my hands than the GLOCK [corrected]. When I took both out to the range - I was flabbergasted as to how poorly I shot the G19. I took it out again 3 days later and ran another 100 plus rounds through the G19 to "get back" in sync with the pistol. Yes I got better but then I pulled out the Caracal again and bingo - great groupings.

Superior angle? Not to me. Plus it is the worst fitting of the 3 pistols for my hand.

Note: G19 3rd Gen.

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Old June 30, 2012, 10:17 AM   #77
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"The Caracal from day one was inherently a more accurate pistol in my hands than the Caracal."

Huh?

Typo ?

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Old June 30, 2012, 10:43 AM   #78
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Glocks are good reliable pistols with many features few people like and others have made an industry correcting. You can get many different triggers for them now and a Timbewolf frame (1911 grip) and beavertail grip adapters (1911 again). It's just a European style grip that most of us don't prefer. The only reason I can see for it is that when under the stress invloved in a gunfight you tend to push the gun out harder and roll your wrists down which brings the Glock properly on target.
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Old June 30, 2012, 11:41 AM   #79
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Quote:
The Caracal from day one was inherently a more accurate pistol in my hands than the Caracal."

Huh?
Nope - I just love saying Caracal more than Glock!

Yes - it was a typo. The Caracal is a wonderful pistol and is becoming my favorite poly pistol.
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Old June 30, 2012, 01:07 PM   #80
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The answer is simple:

John Moses Browning was given the 1911 design as an act of immediate revelation from God.

Any more questions?

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Old July 1, 2012, 12:18 AM   #81
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So, is the hipower like the book of revelations?
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Old July 1, 2012, 05:39 AM   #82
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The Caracal from day one was inherently a more accurate pistol in my hands than the GLOCK
I'm probably one of the biggest Glock fans out there but this is true. It took me a few hundred rounds to be accurate with my first Glock. With the Caracal, it took about 2 rounds. I'm not saying one is better than the other but as for 'inherent' accuracy, I found the same.
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Old July 2, 2012, 12:26 PM   #83
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It really doesn't matter to me. Nothing really points more or less naturally for me unless the angle truly is extreme, and Glocks' grip angle is not. It doesn't matter. If the enemy is that close a couple degrees isn't going to matter, and if the enemy is that far away you'll be sure to line up the sights anyway.
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Old July 2, 2012, 01:14 PM   #84
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I'm probably one of the biggest Glock fans out there but this is true. It took me a few hundred rounds to be accurate with my first Glock. With the Caracal, it took about 2 rounds
.

Is it because you were new to the platform with Glocks, but with the Caracal the similarity to Glocks was enough that you adapted quickly?

Quote:
If the enemy is that close a couple degrees isn't going to matter, and if the enemy is that far away you'll be sure to line up the sights anyway.
Personally, I have actually found that my speed and group size is much better with Glock than with other guns with a more vertical grip angle when point shooting at close range.

Of course, everyone's hand/wrist alignment is different, so YMMV.
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Old July 2, 2012, 01:20 PM   #85
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Hold a P99 and then tell me the Glock is superior. It's not even my favorite pistol but I have yet to find a more perfect, at least for me, in the hand feel.
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Old July 2, 2012, 01:37 PM   #86
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Hold a P99 and then tell me the Glock is superior. It's not even my favorite pistol but I have yet to find a more perfect, at least for me, in the hand feel.
For me the best feeling gun to date is a Browning HP MKIII with the factor plastic grips.

Best feeling gun I have ever felt.

The sights still didn't line up for me naturally but it just fit my hand perfect.

The only pistol other than my old convertible Blackhawk 9mm/.357 that I ever regret getting rid of.
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Old July 2, 2012, 01:42 PM   #87
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For me the best feeling gun to date is a Browning HP MKIII with the factor plastic grips.

Best feeling gun I have ever felt.

The sights still didn't line up for me naturally but it just fit my hand perfect.

The only pistol other than my old convertible Blackhawk 9mm/.357 that I ever regret getting rid of.
The Hi Power is a nice gun to be sure. I was trying to think of something in the same ballpark as a Glock, that being striker fired and polymer framed.
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Old July 2, 2012, 02:20 PM   #88
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The Glock grip angle may suit some and not others. Everyone has a thing called muscle memory. If you point your finger at something it really is pointed at that object [unless you are built funny] according to your brain. Pick up an mty pistol. Hold it in your strong hand with your trigger finger along the slide. Look at an object. Close your eyes and point your finger at that object. Open your eyes. Are the sights lined up? If they are, this may be just the pistol for you in times of stress.

For some [other than me] the Glock passes this test. For me, the 1911 and especially the M&P pass this test with uncanny passing colors. Even though I am a 1911 fan, the M&P actually points better.

Glock did something really great for the pistol shooting public. They came about at a time when the company that owned the US auto pistol market [Colt] was turning out jam-o-matics. Revolvers were more reliable. My first Colt 1911 never fired a full magazine with out a stoppage of some kind. Glocks worked. You didn't have to hire a gunsmith to set them right.

Sure, the Glock has a crap trigger, but when you pull it the gun goes bang! Sure the grip feels fat, but you can put hundreds of rounds thru one with out cleaning and never have a stoppage. Sure the frame is made out of some black Austrian goo, but they never seem to wear out.

Now Glock has shamed the other pistol manufactures into giving us guns that work. The 1911 that I was shooting this past weekend has over 10,000 rounds with out a stoppage. My S&W M&P has never jammed. We have Glock to thank for this. They raised the standard.

For years we put up with the bad trigger, boxy grip, and poor grip angle because Glocks worked. Now, others like the M&P not only work, they feel good, and offer good triggers too. It is time for Glock to wake up and take notice.
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Old July 2, 2012, 02:46 PM   #89
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@ Hardbawl

Great post and so true.

Glock did all that, but they are ugly & have a strange grip angle too.

I'm not disappointed with the old Glocks ...

I'm disappointed with the Gen 4 Glocks

Glock didn't correct what they knew was questionable with the old Glocks.

They've allowed XDm's & M&P's and others to pass them by ..

Now that's a shame. IMHO

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Old July 2, 2012, 02:54 PM   #90
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Is it because you were new to the platform with Glocks, but with the Caracal the similarity to Glocks was enough that you adapted quickly?
Nope - the Glock is nothing like a Caracal in feeling. The Grip and the lower bore axis on the Caracal makes for a noticeably softer shooter. I think the trigger is better also.

I have had my G19 for two years, my G22 for 3. My M&P for about 3 years...I was buying a new pistol every 3-4 months for about 5 years so getting in the groove with a new pistol always takes a bit of shooting to get used to. Getting dialed in with the Caracal took a very short time. I will add that shooting a S&W 1911 required virtually no accuracy break in but 5 inches of barrel and a very light SA trigger pull have a lot to do with it...

Last week, I just my G19 and Caracal in an afternoon shoot off. 20 rounds Glock, 20 rounds Caracal, 20 rounds Glock, 20 rounds Caracal, etc. The Caracal, to me, is the better ride. The G19 suffers from "Glock knuckle". The finger grooves compress my ring finger which after a bit of shooting, makes it an uncomfortable shooter.

Note: The G19 and Caracal F have very similar barrel lengths. Caracal F: 4.1". Glock G19: 4.02".
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Old July 2, 2012, 03:02 PM   #91
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Note: The G19 and Caracal F have very similar barrel lengths. Caracal F: 4.1". Glock G19: 4.02".
How do they compare height wise?
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Old July 2, 2012, 04:25 PM   #92
spodwo
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Height Caracal F: 5.3"
Height Glock G19: 5.0"
Height Caracal S: 4.8" with a barrel length of 3.5".
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Old July 2, 2012, 04:51 PM   #93
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So, is the hipower like the book of revelations?
Maybe more like an apocrypha?
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Old July 2, 2012, 05:57 PM   #94
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JMB was the man. The 1911 is indeed the Gospel according to John Moses Browning and the BHP is his book of Revelation.

I personally don't think get the glock grip angle. They're reliable guns that did a lot for the world of semi-autos, but not my favorite.

I'm still looking for someone to definitively explain why they believe the glock grip angle works... maybe somebody has and I've just missed it.
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Old July 2, 2012, 07:13 PM   #95
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I'm still looking for someone to definitively explain why they believe the glock grip angle works... maybe somebody has and I've just missed it.
On a large number of people, when they make a fist and point their index finger, they have the same index point as a Glock. Not everyone has the same point that their wrist locks.

Having a locked wrist and a gun that lines up the sights automatically without adjustment is the ideal situation.

With Glocks, I can point the gun with my eyes closed, and open them up and the sights are pretty much on target (elevation anyway, might need some minor windage correction).

With other guns, like a Sig, or HK USP. When I do that, I am looking at the hammer and I can't even see the front sight at all.

Take a ruler and grasp it in your hand. Make a fist and point at something naturally. The closer the ruler is to being straight up and down, the less you will like the Glock grip angle. The further forward, the more likely you will be to like it.

The other advantage of the forward grip angle is that it helps keep the bore axis lower. Lower bore axis means less muzzle flip.

Take a look at Olympic free hand pistols, notice the forward rake. I only have personal anecdotal evidence on this but 75% or more of the people that I know have forward locking wrists.
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Old July 2, 2012, 07:49 PM   #96
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I only have personal anecdotal evidence on this but 75% or more of the people that I know have forward locking wrists.
And I'd say 25% or less of the people that I know have forward locking wrists. Statistics like that aren't very useful.
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Old July 2, 2012, 09:17 PM   #97
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Although the Caracal does have a lower bore axis, it also appears to have a similar grip angle to the glock. It may very well be better, but I also agree it at least appears lots of experience with a Glock would help with a Caracal. I have not yet shot one or even handled one, so I may be wrong.
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Old July 2, 2012, 10:12 PM   #98
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And I'd say 25% or less of the people that I know have forward locking wrists. Statistics like that aren't very useful.
That is why I said it was anecdotal.

My own brother has a vertical locking wrist and he shoots his P226 much better than I can.

However, I can shoot much faster and more accurately that he can with my G19 while he is using he P226.

I can finish a magazine before he is even past 10 rounds.

But it is still anecdotal.
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Old July 2, 2012, 10:19 PM   #99
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My own brother has a vertical locking wrist and he shoots his P226 much better than I can.

However, I can shoot much faster and more accurately that he can with my G19 while he is using he P226.

I can finish a magazine before he is even past 10 rounds.

But it is still anecdotal.
Yup it is.

Though I'm not sure how we went from talking about grip angle to shooting speed?
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Old July 3, 2012, 05:32 AM   #100
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It's not just the grip angle on my G19 that makes it a less than satisfactory feel - it's the finger grooves and the back hump.
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