waffen frankonia shotgun?

jeffg · June 11, 2012, 10:59 PM

I am looking for info on a double barrel shotgun, 16 gauge, hammers,one barrel is stamped 16.1 and the other is 16.5 ; chokes? Anyway I can't find a reference for this and the gun is a " FOREST model '' by WAFFEN FRANKONIA-WURZBURG. I am looking for year of manufacture, by who, where, possible value, etc.

PetahW · June 12, 2012, 10:30 AM

WAFFEN FRANKONIA-WURZBURG, founded in 1908, is still in business in Wurzburg, Germany, making sporting rifles, etc.

The proofmarks should help define the year/era your double was made, but from the gauge markings I would WAG that it was made prior to WWI.

Because the barrels are marked "16", and not "16/70" (2-3/4"), it has the older short 2-1/2" or 2-9/16" (65mm) chamber (all fired lengths) - and should NOT be fired with modern 2-3/4" ammo (even though unfired shells will chamber), even so-called "low brass" or target loads.

Proper, low-pressure 2-1/2" shotshells are available today from the likes of RST, PolyWad, Kent, GameBore & others.

The "16.1" (about IC) & 16.5" (about MOD) are the respective barrel's choke constriction measurements.

.

jeffg · June 12, 2012, 01:53 PM

Thanks for responding, the gun seems more modern and I broke the gun down again and found a serial # 21190, also the tubes have other stampings. The first tube is marked 1,350 17,1 16,1 the second is stamped 18,6 17,1 16,5 under the 18,6 is stamped 70 but only on that tube. I will try to find a website for the manufacturer, but didn't have much luck doing a google search.

oneounceload · June 12, 2012, 02:40 PM

The 16, 17 and 18 numbers are bore dimensions in MM.
the 70 is the chamber length
The 1350 is the proof pressure approved for that barrel

It sounds like the barrels were altered and reproofed

16.1 = .633
16.5 = .649
17.1 = .673
18.6 = .732

Since the 16 gauge is a nominal .662, I am wondering about the 18.6, which is a 12 gauge bore diameter

A quick trip to a good gunsmith with a bore gauge can clear this up

jeffg · June 12, 2012, 10:19 PM

will add photo, still looking for any kind of info

mapsjanhere · June 12, 2012, 11:09 PM

Please try to get better pictures of the proof marks, by they look east german to me. Frankonia used to brand DDR and USSR guns.

jeffg · June 12, 2012, 11:26 PM

I will try to repost them tomorrow, I'm sure I can do better, thanks

jeffg · June 13, 2012, 04:20 PM

Better pictures are available, never considered the possibility of being East German? I will post two pictures of hinge plate then three more of barrel hope it helps

jeffg · June 13, 2012, 04:37 PM

here are pictures of barrel, the one is a little blurry

zippy13 · June 13, 2012, 05:14 PM

Those are Italian proof-marks!
Perhaps it was re-bored in Italy.

jeffg · June 13, 2012, 08:03 PM

So we have a German barrel but it was proof tested in Italy, is there anyway to tell when this gun was made from the proof marks? This is getting really interesting !

zippy13 · June 13, 2012, 08:12 PM

IINM, the "XVI" mark indicates 1960.

jeffg · June 13, 2012, 08:36 PM

I was thinking it was for 16 gauge?

PetahW · June 13, 2012, 08:42 PM

I suspect the "RAG" stamp to be a maker's mark, possibly for the rework.

.

zippy13 · June 14, 2012, 12:18 AM

You might try:
RigArmi / RigArms (RAG) Industria Rino Galesi, Brescia, Italy

zippy13 · June 14, 2012, 12:32 AM

Quote:

I was thinking it was for 16 gauge?

The Italians started using Roman numeral year codes at the end of WWII. I for 1945 until XXX in 1974. Then they switched to a two letter code with AA for 1975. It gets confusing because some combinations are skipped: AF for 1980 and then AH for 1981 (perhaps AG means something nasty in Italian).

jeffg · June 14, 2012, 09:13 PM

So then,we have 1945 plus 15? Okay, I will start looking for Italian makers or gunsmiths. Thanks to all

TheKlawMan · June 15, 2012, 02:41 AM

The chart posted here on SGW agrees with Zippy that XVI the Italian proof code for a date of 1960. http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=73492

TheKlawMan · June 15, 2012, 02:56 AM

Patriot USA says on this SGW thread that 1190 is the grms the barrel weighs. http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...p?f=2&t=259709

What is the likelihood that the barrels were made in Italy and sold to a German company that assembled the gun or the guns were simply built in Italy and branded by the the German company?

zippy13 · June 15, 2012, 11:41 AM

Quote:

What is the likelihood that the barrels were made in Italy and sold to a German company that assembled the gun or the guns were simply built in Italy and branded by the the German company?

Anything's possible. It could be that the gun was re-barreled in Italy. WAFFEN FRANKONIA-WURZBURG has been around for over 100-years, but the area was extensively bombed during WWII. After the war, they made sporting rifles based on military actions. I'm guessing they were back in full production by the 1960s. Since the gun is labeled Forest Model, not Wald nor Foresta, I suspect it was made for export to an English speaking market. The OP showed us pics of the barrels, but not close-ups of the receiver's markings. A date mark on the action might help understand this mystery. The gun may have been picked up by a GI who was then transferred to Italy. As I said, anything's possible.

mapsjanhere · June 15, 2012, 12:47 PM

Frankonia is a reseller, not a manufacturer. As such it's a rebranded Italian made gun.

jeffg · June 15, 2012, 10:59 PM

I will post pictures tomorrow of barrels with better details, the gun really is a mystery, and it is definitely well made.

jeffg · June 17, 2012, 11:52 AM

Had to reduce size of pictures to upload but here are some different views of shotgun, still looking for any kind of info, opinions, guesses?

oneounceload · June 17, 2012, 05:53 PM

If it was assembled in Germany, then it would need German proof marks

I still believe the 1350 is the pressure rating as that is a common number seen on these guns and is typically required before barrel weight to be stamped on them - but I have also been wrong before - weighing the barrels will prove or disprove that aspect

I am still wondering about the barrel with the supposed 12 gauge bore size - I can't imagine someone boring out a 16 to 12 - too confusing and the possibility of an OOPS too great

jeffg · June 17, 2012, 10:34 PM

Tomorrow I will weigh the barrel and see how close it is to weighing 1.35 kilograms (which seems light?) and will post result. I'm also confused about the barrel being rebored to a 16 gauge from 12, it seems to me it would be easier to go from 16 to 12, but I'm only guessing on this. Is the barrel entirely German and the rest of the gun Italian or is gun entirely German and just proof tested in Italy?

June 11, 2012, 10:59 PM	#1
jeffg Member Join Date: June 10, 2012 Posts: 15	waffen frankonia shotgun? I am looking for info on a double barrel shotgun, 16 gauge, hammers,one barrel is stamped 16.1 and the other is 16.5 ; chokes? Anyway I can't find a reference for this and the gun is a " FOREST model '' by WAFFEN FRANKONIA-WURZBURG. I am looking for year of manufacture, by who, where, possible value, etc.

June 12, 2012, 10:19 PM	#5
jeffg Member Join Date: June 10, 2012 Posts: 15	will add photo, still looking for any kind of info Last edited by jeffg; June 13, 2012 at 04:00 PM.

June 12, 2012, 11:09 PM	#6
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,269	Please try to get better pictures of the proof marks, by they look east german to me. Frankonia used to brand DDR and USSR guns. __________________ F 135 - the right choice

June 12, 2012, 11:26 PM	#7
jeffg Member Join Date: June 10, 2012 Posts: 15	I will try to repost them tomorrow, I'm sure I can do better, thanks Last edited by jeffg; June 13, 2012 at 04:00 PM.

June 13, 2012, 08:03 PM	#11
jeffg Member Join Date: June 10, 2012 Posts: 15	waffen frankonia So we have a German barrel but it was proof tested in Italy, is there anyway to tell when this gun was made from the proof marks? This is getting really interesting !

June 12, 2012, 10:30 AM	#2
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 3,275	WAFFEN FRANKONIA-WURZBURG, founded in 1908, is still in business in Wurzburg, Germany, making sporting rifles, etc. The proofmarks should help define the year/era your double was made, but from the gauge markings I would WAG that it was made prior to WWI. Because the barrels are marked "16", and not "16/70" (2-3/4"), it has the older short 2-1/2" or 2-9/16" (65mm) chamber (all fired lengths) - and should NOT be fired with modern 2-3/4" ammo (even though unfired shells will chamber), even so-called "low brass" or target loads. Proper, low-pressure 2-1/2" shotshells are available today from the likes of RST, PolyWad, Kent, GameBore & others. The "16.1" (about IC) & 16.5" (about MOD) are the respective barrel's choke constriction measurements. .

June 12, 2012, 01:53 PM	#3
jeffg Member Join Date: June 10, 2012 Posts: 15	Thanks for responding, the gun seems more modern and I broke the gun down again and found a serial # 21190, also the tubes have other stampings. The first tube is marked 1,350 17,1 16,1 the second is stamped 18,6 17,1 16,5 under the 18,6 is stamped 70 but only on that tube. I will try to find a website for the manufacturer, but didn't have much luck doing a google search.

June 12, 2012, 02:40 PM	#4
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	The 16, 17 and 18 numbers are bore dimensions in MM. the 70 is the chamber length The 1350 is the proof pressure approved for that barrel It sounds like the barrels were altered and reproofed 16.1 = .633 16.5 = .649 17.1 = .673 18.6 = .732 Since the 16 gauge is a nominal .662, I am wondering about the 18.6, which is a 12 gauge bore diameter A quick trip to a good gunsmith with a bore gauge can clear this up

June 13, 2012, 05:14 PM	#10
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,281	Those are Italian proof-marks! Perhaps it was re-bored in Italy.

June 13, 2012, 08:12 PM	#12
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,281	IINM, the "XVI" mark indicates 1960.

June 13, 2012, 08:36 PM	#13
jeffg Member Join Date: June 10, 2012 Posts: 15	I was thinking it was for 16 gauge?

June 13, 2012, 08:42 PM	#14
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 3,275	I suspect the "RAG" stamp to be a maker's mark, possibly for the rework. .

June 14, 2012, 12:18 AM	#15
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,281	You might try: RigArmi / RigArms (RAG) Industria Rino Galesi, Brescia, Italy

June 14, 2012, 09:13 PM	#17
jeffg Member Join Date: June 10, 2012 Posts: 15	So then,we have 1945 plus 15? Okay, I will start looking for Italian makers or gunsmiths. Thanks to all

June 15, 2012, 02:41 AM	#18
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,150	The chart posted here on SGW agrees with Zippy that XVI the Italian proof code for a date of 1960. http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=73492

June 15, 2012, 02:56 AM	#19
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,150	Patriot USA says on this SGW thread that 1190 is the grms the barrel weighs. http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...p?f=2&t=259709 What is the likelihood that the barrels were made in Italy and sold to a German company that assembled the gun or the guns were simply built in Italy and branded by the the German company?

June 15, 2012, 12:47 PM	#21
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,269	Frankonia is a reseller, not a manufacturer. As such it's a rebranded Italian made gun. __________________ F 135 - the right choice

June 15, 2012, 10:59 PM	#22
jeffg Member Join Date: June 10, 2012 Posts: 15	I will post pictures tomorrow of barrels with better details, the gun really is a mystery, and it is definitely well made.

June 17, 2012, 05:53 PM	#24
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	If it was assembled in Germany, then it would need German proof marks I still believe the 1350 is the pressure rating as that is a common number seen on these guns and is typically required before barrel weight to be stamped on them - but I have also been wrong before - weighing the barrels will prove or disprove that aspect I am still wondering about the barrel with the supposed 12 gauge bore size - I can't imagine someone boring out a 16 to 12 - too confusing and the possibility of an OOPS too great

June 17, 2012, 10:34 PM	#25
jeffg Member Join Date: June 10, 2012 Posts: 15	barrel weigh or pressure Tomorrow I will weigh the barrel and see how close it is to weighing 1.35 kilograms (which seems light?) and will post result. I'm also confused about the barrel being rebored to a 16 gauge from 12, it seems to me it would be easier to go from 16 to 12, but I'm only guessing on this. Is the barrel entirely German and the rest of the gun Italian or is gun entirely German and just proof tested in Italy?