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Old June 11, 2012, 01:30 PM   #1
Edward429451
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German Short Haired Pointers

I have a guy trying to sell me a pure bred short haired pointer for a good deal and I don't hunt birds. Are they good dogs otherwise? Good family dog? Guard dog? Good with kids?

Thx.
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Old June 11, 2012, 01:45 PM   #2
warbirdlover
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Very head strong and my BIL's destroyed his breezeway (ate the wood!). They're friendly and are good with kids but......

There are better breeds IMHO.
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Old June 11, 2012, 01:58 PM   #3
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Second. Great hunting dogs. Need lots of activity. Would get another breed for a pet.
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Old June 11, 2012, 02:31 PM   #4
American Made
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We had one for about two months. She dug underneath our cement walkway and ran circles in our neighborhood. We're talking three foot of cement that she dug under for her escape. This kept taking place. Her last straw was when she ate our kids trampoline. I'll stick with my labs
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Old June 11, 2012, 05:21 PM   #5
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GSP, GWP and other sporting breeds like them (Weimereiners etc.) are extremely intelligent and have very high levels of energy. As such they get bored easily and as I tell all my clients a bored dog is a destructive dog.

I advise people constantly (literally every day) NOT to get a sporting breed if they aren't either hunters or very active people (hiking, running, biking etc.) and are able to keep their dogs working and moving. Two things can happen - your dog will get bored and start chewing, scratching etc. on everything and ruin your home and/or they will get fat which in turn is unhealthy for them - cardiovascularly AND for their joints.

This is especially true of pointing breeds like the GSP and their cousins. These dogs were bred to run and seek out game. I've watched pointer trials where the judges had to ride horses to keep up with the dogs as they ran the course and found the game to point. This could mean literally miles of tracking and running. If you can't give the dog this kind of exercise don't get the dog because it'll turn out bad for both you and the dog.

This isn't just about pointers though. Labrador Retrievers, Golden Retrievers, Springer Spaniels etc. are all touted as being great family dogs but they too can become bored and destructive. They are also capable of getting overweight easily and that takes a toll on their health.

Sporting dogs are working dogs. They were bred with high levels of energy and with a drive to run and hunt. If these basic needs aren't satisfied you will end up with a dog that you won't be happy with - a source of aggravation that you'll regret having gotten. I'm sure everyone has seen photos and/or paintings of a sporting dog sitting calmly at the feet of their master in front of a fireplace or just laying on the ground next to a chair... what isn't seen in those pictures is that in such dogs the owner has probably invested thousands of dollars into training and works the dogs on a daily basis - giving them an outlet for their energy. Then at the end of they day they can be found calm at the feet of their masters.

Now while I only mentioned sporting breeds other breeds are not well suited for sedentary life styles too - herding breeds and livestock protection breeds are one group that comes to mind.

There ARE breeds of dogs that are well suited for sedentary life though. A mastiff or other variations thereof is a good house dog - sure they're large but they are actually very low energy dogs and being not as intelligent as the sporting, herding and lsg breeds they are less prone to being bored. The drawback is that they are a little slower to train but still are trainable. There are other breeds out there that are well suited for being a house pet too.

Oh and just a note - small dogs aren't all necessarily great house dogs. Terriers for example are VERY high energy and have a high prey drive. They may be small but they can become very destructive too.

Now back to your basic question - whether or not to get a GSP. I'd suggest you take a look at your lifestyle and your family's lives. If you're not going to be able to let this dog get in lots of exercise and also keep it mentally stimulated so it doesn't get bored I would not suggest getting it. Just being a hunter doesn't mean your dog will be well suited for you either. You have to get him/her out moving EVERY day, rain or shine, warm or cold. Obviously in less than good weather you can take it easy and do less outdoors but we're still talking about a lot of exercise and a big commitment in time and effort on your part. Proper training is also absolutely required. Sporting breeds that have not been properly trained will become problems - running away for long periods of time, chasing after everything that runs across their path (and being gone for long periods of time), jumping up on people (and possibly knocking them down) and of course just not listening and minding what they're not supposed to do. I will say now that most people do not know how to properly train a dog, especially a sporting breed.

Good luck.
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Old June 11, 2012, 10:52 PM   #6
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I've owned one and hunted over several others all were decent bird dogs, that being said for bird hunting I prefered English setters.

Back to the German Shorthair I owned, he was an extremly ill tempered dog.
I could not hunt him with another dog, he would kill them and made short work of it I might add.

He would retrieve to anyone, however whomever was hunting with me that day better not step in my yard at home as he would go after them with extreme aggression wanting to bite them.
I always had any hunting partners wait in the truck when we got back to my place until I had him secured in his kennel.

He bit me once, paid dearly for that mistake and never made it again.
If I was not home and my wife would go out to feed him she never went in the kennel she would slide his food pan under the kennel door.

I believe the above ill tempered behavior is not typical of the breed as I've hunted over several that was nothing like the one I owned.

Best Regards
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Old June 11, 2012, 11:04 PM   #7
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The first hired gun job I ever had was guarding 130 head of cows, many getting ready to calve; line cabin, grub, '03 Springfield and ammo furnished. WATCH those dogs around cattle or keep them away from them altogether.
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Old June 11, 2012, 11:20 PM   #8
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Had one years ago. As mentioned very friendly, but also extremely high strung! To the point of more like "NUTS"!
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Old June 12, 2012, 12:07 AM   #9
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My buddy up in the mountains of W NC used to raise and train GSPs. Good hunting dogs. But... his male was extremely territorial, to the point that he might just try to kill any other encroaching male.

The only animals that scared that dog at all were bears. Even so, he'd jump up on top of my buddy's Jeep, and bark at bears in the yard from the rooftop, instead of running to the house.

No fear of guns at all. Problem with that was, I tried some target shooting at my buddy's cabin one time. Bogey (the dog) ran out in front of me, every time I fired a shot, looking for the bird. Kind of hard to have fun with an AR15 when you have to cease fire every shot...
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Old June 12, 2012, 02:54 AM   #10
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I'll take any GSP that you want to get rid of.

As far as I'm concerned, they are the gentlest, sweetest breed of dog that God ever made. I've had a dozen or more since the 1950s, and they all made great pets. They do need exercise, but they are bred to serve and please their masters.

Oh, and get used to the idea that the pointer wants to sleep in your bed UNDER the covers. I think that is inbred in them.

(BTW: My nickname for the breed is "German Shorthaired Bonehead.")
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Old June 12, 2012, 06:42 AM   #11
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There are "problem" dogs from every breed. Dogs are like kids. Most of the time when they become problematic, it's because of bad parents/owners. Ever notice how folks with well behaved dogs often have kids that are achievers and pleasant to be around also? I have owned pointers, GSPs and GWPs for the last 40 years. They are intelligent animals with a desire to please, strong drive to hunt and a great response to discipline. That said, lack of discipline and owner interaction will soon ruin them. Funny, when a toy dog gets bored and destroys something, it's cute. When a large dog does it, suddenly it's destructive. As I said before, most field bred GSPs are driven to hunt. If you are not a hunter nor have a desire to play hunting type games regularly with a dog that will demand it, simply outta fairness to the dog itself, I suggest you pass.
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Old June 12, 2012, 07:33 AM   #12
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Quote:
Back to the German Shorthair I owned, he was an extremly ill tempered dog.
I could not hunt him with another dog, he would kill them and made short work of it I might add.

He would retrieve to anyone, however whomever was hunting with me that day better not step in my yard at home as he would go after them with extreme aggression wanting to bite them.
I always had any hunting partners wait in the truck when we got back to my place until I had him secured in his kennel.

He bit me once, paid dearly for that mistake and never made it again.
If I was not home and my wife would go out to feed him she never went in the kennel she would slide his food pan under the kennel door.
No offense but I'd have shot a dog like that. I don't allow aggression of any sort in my hunting dogs. Sure there's controlled aggression such as in properly trained security/shutzhund dogs but that's a whole different ball game and those dogs aren't aggressive till ordered to be. The kind of aggression you described in the dog is something that needed to be trained out of him and if that was not fixable he should have been destroyed for the safety of your guests and family.

When I'm taking dogs for training I watch closely for aggression. If a dog shows minor signs of aggression the cost for training goes up quite a bit because of the extra training it'll take to get rid of that aggression. If the dog has serious or hard signs of aggression I don't accept the dog for training because of the risks involved.

I've already shot two dogs that I owned because of aggression - one was a $3500 dog - fully trained and purchased from a hunter who had the dog trained with another trainer. Somehow between being fully trained and he age of 4 he'd developed some aggression issues but of course when I bought the dog that wasn't made clear to me. I got the dog home and he was fine with me but my kids couldn't go near him without him lunging and trying to bite them. Same went for my wife and my neighbors. After 2 months of quarantine and attempts to train the aggression out of him I put a .22lr bullet in his head and turned him into a $3500 flower garden.

The other one didn't cost so much - he was a pure bred lab that I bought at 18 months to train for a client. The contract was that I'd find/procure a young (but mature) dog and train it for the client who would then pay me for my services. $500 later I had an 18 month old purebred lab male with great hunting instincts. Sadly the moment I tried to put a leash on him he bit me. I tried again and he tried to bite me again. A few weeks more of trying to work with him resulted in another bite and he was added to the flower garden. I found a different lab that wasn't aggressive and fulfilled the contract - the client was happy.

GSP and other dogs aren't supposed to be aggressive by nature. That happens when something is either wrong with the dog's head OR something happened to the dog that turned it aggressive. Either way if it can't be fixed there is no reason to put others at risk of a bite and injury (or even death).

Quote:
That said, lack of discipline and owner interaction will soon ruin them.
Lack of discipline and owner interaction will destroy ANY dog, big, small, working, sporting or otherwise.

Quote:
Funny, when a toy dog gets bored and destroys something, it's cute. When a large dog does it, suddenly it's destructive.
There's no distinction in my book and shouldn't be in other people's books either. A dog that gets bored and destroys something is destructive. It shouldn't matter based on size - after all it did destroy something. Its not cute. It is however a curable problem because the problem actually isn't the dog - its the owner. The owner just needs to give the dog more attention, exercise and activities to keep it occupied. That and crate your dog whenever you leave it home alone unless its job is to guard your home while you're away. If that's the case you'd better hope your dog is well trained and even then leave him/her something to keep occupied with OTHER than the table legs, shoes, doors etc.
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Last edited by Hansam; June 12, 2012 at 07:40 AM.
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Old June 12, 2012, 09:44 AM   #13
Edward429451
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What a superb selection of thought provoking responses here, thanks. The high energy levels of the breed are well noted and confirms what I have read elsewhere also. While I don't hunt birds, I do small game and also am otherwise outdoorsy so giving him exercise everyday shouldn't be a problem.

They're puppies right now @ 6 weeks old so if I start right away I should be able to train him up pretty good and perhaps take him to obedience also. He'd be coming to live with my English Mastiff also, who is very sedentary.

My Mastiff is very mature and gentle, and listens well. I can walk him without leash and he stays right on my heel. I just hope that the higher energy level of the GSP doesn't create a rift between them and be a problem later.

I'm going to chew on this until the weekend before I carve it in stone but so far I'm thinking this will work out ok for me.

Keep em coming! This is a big decision and I appreciate all the input I can get!
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Old June 12, 2012, 11:28 AM   #14
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You can hunt small game with shorthairs. The Germans developed them as a versatile breed. My hobby is falconry. For years I used a shorthair on rabbits and upland. She'd flush the rabbits and the hawk would chase them. She would retrieve ducks we shot from a blind provided it wasn't too cold out.
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Old June 12, 2012, 11:53 AM   #15
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The key here is proper training and exercise. The GSP is going to be a world apart from your mastiff. I've owned mastiffs and compared to sporting dogs they're just lumbering hulks that prefer to lay in the middle of the busiest part of your house - becoming an almost immovable obstacle to work around.

Sporting breeds WILL be VERY energetic (even English breed labs will be energetic compared to a mastiff) and that might cause a problem between your mastiff who already lives in the house and a new puppy. Be aware of the situation and don't leave the two together unsupervised unless you're ok with a crushed puppy.

As I said before most people don't know how to properly train a dog and that goes double for sporting breeds. If you're looking at obedience classes be sure to have in mind a set in stone list of criteria that you want. Do not compromise on this list. I'll give you my list as an example. Yours may or may not be similar to mine.

My list:

1. Dogs MUST be submissive to people.
2. Dogs are not allowed to jump up on people.
3. Dogs are not allowed to lick people.
4. Dogs are not allowed on furniture - that includes the bed.
5. My yard isn't fenced in or any of my property for that matter. Dogs must know and mind their boundaries.
6. Dogs must not rush out the door when the door is opened - rather they must sit and wait to be commanded outside.
7. Dogs must not rush into the house when the door is opened - rather they must sit and wait to be commanded inside.
8. Dogs may not eat till they are told its ok to eat.
9. Dogs will sit on command EVERY time no matter the proximity of their master when the order is given. This is synonymous to "stay" since they should remain sitting till ordered to do something else.
10. Dogs must return to their master when the order to return is given regardless of the situation or distance they are from their master.
11. Dogs must cease barking upon being commanded to stop from their master.
12. Dogs must obey their master regardless of the presence of other people, dogs, animals and/or sources of distraction.

These dozen requirements of mine are mine and when I train dogs for someone else I train their dogs to these requirements. If they choose to relax a bit on the discipline and say let their dog onto furniture that's their choice but its always easier to relax the discipline than to try and tighten it after a dog has been allowed to do something on a regular basis.

When looking at a trainer make sure to look at their personal dogs and decide if their dogs behave the way YOU want YOUR dogs to behave. Don't just judge them by how other people's dogs are but judge them by what you want out of your dogs and determine if the trainer is capable of doing that. I don't bother going with a trainer's previous customer reviews because they will almost always get rave reviews. This is because most people haven't got a clue what to expect out of a dog much less one that has been well trained.

Also don't just go by the diplomas and/or degrees they might have on their walls either. Some of the best dog trainers I know don't have any of these things - just showcases full of ribbons and titles from tests, trials and shows. There is no actual licensing requirement (at least on the federal level and not in my state) to be a dog trainer. I do believe it is that way in most states too. Anyway those diplomas and certificates don't mean anything except that the trainer has spent the money to get those. What matters is results. Look at their personal dogs, their clients' dogs and their accomplishments in the past to get a good gauge on their quality of training.

That said I'd strongly suggest finding a local hunt trainer in your area for your GSP if you get him/her. The reason for this is that while you may not bird hunt the hunt training is a good foundation for other types of hunting (ie. small game - rabbit, squirrel, raccoon) and the obedience that is trained into the dog through hunt training is so far above what the average non-hunting dog trainer would give. Get a properly trained hunting dog and you'll never think that dogs you'd previously thought were good dogs are all that good again.

If you get that puppy good luck and enjoy your time with it. Have fun with the housebreaking lol!
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Old June 12, 2012, 12:29 PM   #16
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Dogs are pack animals - IF you are going to get a hi-maintenance dog like a GSP, get two so they each have someone to play with and thereby not eat your furniture; otherwise, get a Golden Retriever - the ultimate family dog where hunting is not part of the equation - besides, they're cute......
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Old June 12, 2012, 01:56 PM   #17
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No offense but I'd have shot a dog like that. I don't allow aggression of any sort in my hunting dogs. Sure there's controlled aggression such as in properly trained security/shutzhund dogs but that's a whole different ball game and those dogs aren't aggressive till ordered to be. The kind of aggression you described in the dog is something that needed to be trained out of him and if that was not fixable he should have been destroyed for the safety of your guests and family.
I'm not offended at all, the dog was put down.

I purchased the dog as a pup 8 weeks old raised and trained the dog myself.
I might add I've rasied and trained many dogs, trained some for other people. So lack of proper training was not my dogs problem, he just had a bad temperment that got worse with age.

I don't give up on my animals easily, but I do realize there comes a time to cut your losses and do what has to be done.

I also don't believe my dogs temperment was typical of the breed, as I've seen and hunted over to many Shorthairs that were very well behaved.

Best Regards
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Old June 12, 2012, 02:09 PM   #18
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Dogs are pack animals - IF you are going to get a hi-maintenance dog like a GSP, get two so they each have someone to play with and thereby not eat your furniture
Its true that dogs are pack animals but this is not good advice. Especially with high energy dogs you don't want to get two puppies at the same time. Unless you're an experienced dog trainer/handler you will not be able to handle them both.

The other problem is that dogs ARE pack animals. You don't want them to bond to each other more closely than to you though. Besides just because you have two doesn't mean they'll keep each other busy. I've seen cases (which happen more often than people think) where someone did exactly that - got two puppies "so they could play with each other" and ended up with two dogs that chewed/ate up everything they could put their mouths on. The owners came home one day to find one dog chewing on a shoe and the other dog chewing on the sofa - the path of destruction was horrible - 6 pairs of shoes pulled out of the closet and chewed up, two chairs with less than 4 whole legs each, a table with only 1 leg that hadn't been chewed on, the garbage pulled out of the closet in the kitchen and knocked over with trash spread all over the house, the closet door(s) chewed up, pillows torn etc. Sure the dogs played with each other - they also chewed on things with each other too.

The other thing is if you aren't experienced with training dogs and especially multiple dogs you can run into a problem known as litter mate syndrome. Some dog trainers say its near impossible to prevent if you get multiple puppies (2 or more) at once however I say its completely easy to prevent. Its when it occurs that it gets difficult to undo. In order to prevent it though you have to keep the pups separated from each other 24/7 till they have finished being obedience trained. The reason for this is that litter mate syndrome (LMS) occurs when the puppies bond to one another and decide that playing with each other is more enjoyable than playing with you, the owner/trainer/handler. In that case the puppies, while still liking to be with you, will be more eager to go play with the other puppies because its simply more fun than the training you want to do. No amount of playing you do with them will outweigh their playtime with each other since they have no new rules they have to learn after all.

If you're going to get the puppy get just one unless you're a very experienced dog trainer and have the stomach to do what is necessary when owning/training multiple puppies.

Bob Hunter -

I'm glad you put the dog down. Its really unfortunate those things have to happen but I've been privy to too many incidents regarding dogs and bite cases where it could have been prevented had the dog just been put down after all the signs were shown. A boy in a city near me had his face bitten in half by a dog that had been clearly aggressive and prone to violence. The dog (a pit bull) was outwardly aggressive toward strangers and had already bitten his owner twice. The owner didn't want to put his dog down and as such the dog was allowed to live long enough to break its leash (which by the way still amazes me how that happens since you should have a leash that is strong enough to contain your dog...) and attack a neighborhood boy. There are other incidents that I can recall that I have information about but I won't waste the bandwidth.

I will say that the majority of violent dog attacks occur because the owners didn't take the appropriate measures to prevent them... up to and including destroying the animal because of clear signs of unmanageable aggression. Thank you for being one of the few sane dog owners left in this country.
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Old June 12, 2012, 02:28 PM   #19
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Best Breed

I have two of them and wouldn't trade them for the world. They are wonderful pets, great with children, and are the most intelligent dogs I have ever owned. We taught them at 9 weeks to ring a bell when they needed to go outside, we also taught them to heel, fetch, and come at the same age.

I have owned Labs, Golden's, Danes, and Beagles. I wouldn't trade the two GSP's I have now for any of the others.

Mine do have a high prey drive and we do exercise them daily (chasing tennis balls). They can easily jump a 6' fence to chase deer, squirrels, or any other critter they see but they immediately return when called.

They work and play hard but they also crawl in your lap at night and just want to relax. They aren't for everyone but if you take the time to train them they will excel in everything they do.

They both got out of their puppy stages around 3 years old. Neither of them chewed on anything but their toys that were given to them, but we also didn't leave them alone to get in trouble and corrected them early.

They go everywhere with me and my family, they love the water, riding in cars, boats, and anything else that moves even tubes at the lake. They like to take float trips and hike.

One of ours loves agility courses and flyball, and the other just likes to relax and watch the turkeys in the back field.

If you are an active person who loves going places and being outdoors you really couldn't ask for a better dog in my opinion.

Good luck,
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Old June 12, 2012, 02:56 PM   #20
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I have two, a male and female. I don't get to hunt birds like I use to so they are more lile pets now. They are just as gentle and docile as can be and live in the house with us. My 21mo crawls all over the 80lb male, pulls on his tail, pinches his ears, sits on him and has even grabbed him by the stones (and they are large stones), he does nothing but wag his nub, well except with nut squeeze, that made him jump and he was a little nervous for about a week.

My 45lb female, plays with the kids, and gets into everything with them..

I can honestly say that I have seen both dogs immediately go stand between strangers to them and my kids in full protective mode. Delivery people call us prior to bringing something too, Chunk is large and quite formidable if he doesn't know you.

Mine retrieve, slide on slides, play in forts, and come inside and sleep beside my bed or recliner. Before long my baby boy is going to have the using silverware and napkins when they eat too.

GSP's are what you make them. If you include them as part of your family, then that is what they will be. If you treat them as tools or livestock, then you won't get a very good dog. They are very sociable and need that attention to thrive. They are not an ill tempered breed by any means, defensive and protective yes.

90% of the people that I have heard bad mouth the breed don't have a clue what they were doing with them in the first place. And 50% of those shouldn't even own a dog for that matter. About the worst thing my dogs do is dig and I haven't seen one working/sporting dog that didn't like to dig.
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Old June 12, 2012, 05:44 PM   #21
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Quote:
GSP's are what you make them
That is true as it is for most breeds of dogs too however there are certain traits that you simply cannot ignore about certain breeds. In sporting breeds there is a much higher energy level and higher prey drive than in other breeds. It is the same with herding breeds - they tend to have an instinctive need to herd something and will often be found herding children if they don't have sheep or other animals to herd.

I believe that a hunting dog is a different type of dog to some people than other dogs. While my dogs reside with me inside my home and live with my kids I can't condemn those hunters who choose to keep their dogs outside in a kennel. So long as those hunters continue to interact with their dogs and provide for the dog's needs (both physically and mentally) those dogs can be great dogs too. Again they are what you make them.

Quote:
They are not an ill tempered breed by any means, defensive and protective yes.
I don't believe anyone said they were an ill tempered breed. As for defensive and protective I haven't got a problem with those particular behaviors however they must be manageable. My dogs will also stand between my children, my wife and even myself and strangers however they also stand down with the simple command of "at ease." Once that command is issued they become at ease and are quite friendly with the strangers - posing no threat at all to anyone.

Quote:
90% of the people that I have heard bad mouth the breed
I actually don't believe I've seen ANYONE badmouth GSPs here. They've all cautioned about some of the things one can encounter with GSPs but then those same concerns are valid for other sporting breeds too. I do believe I've seen quite a few posts saying they're great dogs but beware of this or that.

All in all it comes down to what the owner makes of the dog. If you give the dog proper training and treat it well your dog will be a great part of your family. If you fail on that part your dog will suffer as will your family life.

I understand that its easy to get emotional and defensive about a particular breed of dogs especially if you own one or more of such dogs but this particular breed isn't under attack here. As I've continued to assert its all about the training.
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Old June 12, 2012, 06:32 PM   #22
Edward429451
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This is gold, thanks. So this is going to be a good dog for me. No way am I getting two of them, and he's trying for me to get two also. I have to go to work sometime, and I like my house
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Old June 12, 2012, 07:05 PM   #23
kkirchmer
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Two GSP's

I'm actually really glad I got two of them personally. They love to play together and tire each other out. Also they keep each other company when we can't pay full attention to them.

Also we kenneled ours for the first 3 years we had them until they got out of the puppy stage. Now they both roam the house when we aren't home and have never destroyed or gotten into anything. I have actually set up a camera just to see what they do during the day and they just lay on the couch and watch whats going on outside, occasionally chasing each other through the house.

Just my opinion but the two females I have work well together and they are attached at the hip. We are actually looking into adopting a third because we love the breed so much.

Ours love tennis balls but their favorite toy is a large Kong and a soft frisbee, keep them playing early and they will get attached to their toys. Everyday when we get home from work they are at the door with toys in their mouths ready to play.

I can't brag enough on my two and I hope you have the same luck with yours. Feel free to shoot me a message if you ever have any questions.
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Old June 12, 2012, 11:41 PM   #24
hogdogs
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Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,071
When a dog of mine exhibits any dog or human aggression, with a quickness, I deal out sudden and extreme discipline in the pack style/mentality...

They get few chances to fully correct or they are culled from the gene pool.

I also agree that sporting breeds of good stock are only a good choice if they have a job and the excercise...

There are lots of watered down "sporting breed" dogs out there with AKC in their pedigree. These can behave more docile and less motivated etc. but they also have the "cheapened" genetics that are not the healthy specimen of the original dog bred for performance.

Brent
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Old June 13, 2012, 12:21 AM   #25
Edward429451
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Join Date: November 12, 2000
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
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That's good info. I might think about two if I didn't already have a dinosaur lol. My Mastiff was easy to obedience train. He did not like taking a time out and wanted to come out and see everyone. He was good after that. It sounds like the GSPs are a good and intelligent breed too, so I think he'll respond well also.

I'm stoked, time to haggle He's chompin at the bit to get rid of some puppy mouths!

KKirchmer, thanks! I'll do that
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