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Old June 11, 2012, 12:33 PM   #1
twobit
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New York laws regarding black powder handgun?

Help from NY residents would be appreciated as to this question...

Wife and I will be going to NY state (upper western NY) in a couple of weeks for vacation to see her family. I'll be taking a handgun or two as concealed carry. For that, I'm covered under the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act (a Federal law made possible by President Bush) so I can legally conceal carry in all 50 states. Key word is concealed! My wife can't carry there as she only has a TX CHL as a civilian.

My brother-in-law is a member of a gun club and has said we can go shoot there. He doesn't own handguns because of stupid NY state gun laws, but has rifles and that was what he was talking about shooting.

MY QUESTION IS:Can I shoot my 1860 Army BP cap & ball pistol at a gun range in NY without being a resident and having a NY handgun license? Do black powder pistols fall under NY state handgun laws? If I can shoot it, I'll take it along with some caps, balls, wads, and powder. Traveling, we will be in a truck / fifth wheel RV so I got plenty of room to take along some range supplies and some long guns also.
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Old June 11, 2012, 12:55 PM   #2
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The last I heard (several years ago) was that if you had the components to fire it (balls, caps & powder) then it was illegal. You could have it as long as it wasn't accompanied by these.

We used to take the pistol to PA, buy the load materials there, shoot it, & return with a pistol only & never had a problem, but that was because we only had the cap & ball without the materials in NYS.
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Old June 11, 2012, 03:35 PM   #3
twobit
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Thank you Wogpotter. Your post made me do some more research and it seems sadly that you are correct. From NY state police site ~

http://www.troopers.ny.gov/FAQs/Firearms/Permits.cfm

If it is shot, or if the loading components (ball, caps, powder) are present then a pistol permit for that gun is required. I'll leave it at home. We will not be shooting any handguns at the NY range. Boy I'm glad I live in Texas! My B-I-L is fed up with all those gun regulations and they will all move down here in a few years anyway.
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Old June 11, 2012, 07:26 PM   #4
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NYS gun laws can be/are far too restrictive and complicated. I started my career as an LEO before my 21st birthday (at that time, minimum age was 18, don't know if that has changed). Small town, part-time Officers only. Full peace/police authority on duty and off. MPTC qualified, annual re-qual at the PD's range, etc. All officers had to provide their own sidearms, meeting the Dept. criteria.

Although I was a "Full-Fledged Sworn Officer of the Law", I had to have my uncle purchase my sidearm for me, because an FFL holder could not sell handguns to LEO and CCW holders under the age of 21. This, I believe, remains the same, although permit applicants must now be 21 years or older.

Your interpretation of our handgun law is correct, and you are well served by leaving the cap & ball at home. If however you are under the immediate supervision and control of a permit holder or LEO, you would be permitted to fire their sidearms. Enforcement, however, varies greatly from one jurisdiction to the next. Better safe than sorry.
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Old June 11, 2012, 07:39 PM   #5
NoSecondBest
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Quote:
Your interpretation of our handgun law is correct, and you are well served by leaving the cap & ball at home. If however you are under the immediate supervision and control of a permit holder or LEO, you would be permitted to fire their sidearms. Enforcement, however, varies greatly from one jurisdiction to the next. Better safe than sorry.
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You cannot handle or shoot a handgun in NYS, legally, unless you have a valid NYS pistol permit. I'm an NRA instructor in New York State and we cannot allow any student to handle or shoot a handgun as part of the safety training. All gun stores are supposed to ask to see your pistol permit before they can even show you a handgun (let you handle it). Your cap and ball handgun is illegal if you have the components to load and shoot it as stated above.
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Old June 11, 2012, 07:57 PM   #6
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Thanks for all the comments. I'll leave the black powder handgun in Texas. Is there a problem with me (a Texan) going to the NYS range where my brother in law is a member and shooting his long guns?
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Old June 11, 2012, 08:02 PM   #7
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The NY BP handgun story is weird . When BP guns became popular there was an effort to permit Bp handguns to be used without a permit being necessary. Finally the state said OK as investigation showed that there hadn't been a murder with a BP handgun for 75 years !! Well as things go Murphy's law changed that as within a year there was a BP murder !
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Old June 11, 2012, 09:29 PM   #8
mightyoakwildlife
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NoSecondBest said, "You cannot handle or shoot a handgun in NYS, legally, unless you have a valid NYS pistol permit. I'm an NRA instructor in New York State and we cannot allow any student to handle or shoot a handgun as part of the safety training. All gun stores are supposed to ask to see your pistol permit before they can even show you a handgun (let you handle it). Your cap and ball handgun is illegal if you have the components to load and shoot it as stated above."

Do you not help your students gain familiarity and proficiency when you teach? Sorry, but I too am a State certified instructor. Although my certification has long ago lapsed, I also used to do the Hunter Safety Instruction, via the NRA, here in New York. My department teaches firearms qual/requal for 40 hours a week, between the first Monday of April until the last Friday of November. Not just a couple weekends before deer season. Many of the Officers are interested in helping others get into the shooting sports, and handguns are a big part of that.
Sorry my response took so long, but I'm better at teaching than I am at this computer technology. Please take no offense, I'm only posting so that others may benefit from the word of the law as it is written.

New York Penal Law - ARTICLE 265
FIREARMS AND OTHER DANGEROUS WEAPONS


S 265.20 Exemptions.

7-b. Possession and use, at an indoor or outdoor pistol range located
in or on premises owned or occupied by a duly incorporated organization
organized for conservation purposes or to foster proficiency in small
arms or at a target pistol shooting competition under the auspices of or
approved by the national rifle association for the purpose of loading
and firing the same, by a person who has applied for a license to
possess a pistol or revolver and pre-license possession of same pursuant
to section 400.00 or 400.01 of this chapter, who has not been previously
denied a license, been previously convicted of a felony or serious
offense, and who does not appear to be, or pose a threat to be, a danger
to himself or to others, and who has been approved for possession and
use herein in accordance with section 400.00 or 400.01 of this chapter;
provided however, that such possession shall be of a pistol or revolver
duly licensed to and shall be used under the supervision, guidance and
instruction
of, a person specified in paragraph seven of this
subdivision and provided further that such possession and use be within
the jurisdiction of the licensing officer with whom the person has made
application therefor or within the jurisdiction of the superintendent of
state police in the case of a retired sworn member of the division of
state police who has made an application pursuant to section 400.01 of
this chapter.

7-e. Possession and use of a pistol or revolver, at an indoor or
outdoor pistol range located in or on premises owned or occupied by a
duly incorporated organization organized for conservation purposes or to
foster proficiency in small arms or at a target pistol shooting
competition under the auspices of or approved by an association or
organization described in paragraph 7-a of this subdivision for the
purpose of loading and firing the same by a person at least fourteen
years of age but under the age of twenty-one who has not been previously
convicted of a felony or serious offense, and who does not appear to be,
or pose a threat to be, a danger to himself or to others; provided
however, that such possession shall be of a pistol or revolver duly
licensed to and shall be used under the immediate supervision, guidance
and instruction
of, a person specified in paragraph seven of this
subdivision.
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Old June 12, 2012, 04:35 PM   #9
NoSecondBest
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All I can say is that the pistol permit department in my county notified me that I could no longer allow students to handle handguns during training. That was two or three years ago. I keep a copy of my certification in their office and they notified all instructors. My local gun shops will no longer let you handle handguns without a permit. I don't know the dates of the info you posted but maybe something has changed and the posting is not updated. You might want to check with your local handgun permit office. Thanks for the info though.

I have some dummy guns I use during training.
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Old June 12, 2012, 04:57 PM   #10
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And you need a C&C Pistol Permit for each and every county you want to shoot there in NYS ... I'm headin' Home 30 miles this side of the US/Can border 70 miles south a Montreal after 38 years in CA to help take care of my Mom 81 w/ Dimencia...
I can have all the BP handguns or pre 1899 collectables I want and do have a bunch but can't shoot them ... takes 3 years for a C&C ... I have one but I was 18 at the time now 58 yrs ... doubt if it's good anymore ... CA laws ain't so bad as some others... Have to change my name to Smokin_Rifleman...
SG
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Old June 12, 2012, 06:10 PM   #11
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http://law.onecle.com/new-york/penal...20_265.20.html

This site last updated Article 265.20 on 17 February, 2012. I can assure you that while teaching Hunter's Safety back in the late '70s through the early 80's, at the NYS DEC's Stony Kill Farm, familiarity was a routine part of the class. No live-fire, as there was no shooting range on site. However, at the same time (and through to the early 90's), live-fire was a mandatory part of our classes for Handgun Safety (then a requirement for all CCW applicants) being taught at the Dutchess County Pistol Assn. range.

Your restrictions may be unique to the County you're teaching in, as certain regulations/restrictions may be imposed by the issuing authority. The only local shop we have nearby with the badge/permit requirement before handling is Gander. That seems to be a company policy for them, but it could very well be an interpretation of some regulation pertaining to the FFL holder, rather than the consumer.

As to the above Gent's comment about C&C permits for each county, I'm confused as to his meaning. A permit issued anywhere in the state is valid throughout the entire state, excluding the five boroughs of NYC. They, of course, only recognize their own permits, which are also good throughout the remainder of New York.
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Old June 13, 2012, 05:41 PM   #12
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Well that info came from two of my Brother that live back there and have Permits ... only LEOs can C&C from County to County I was told ...
Thank you for having me dig futher into NYS Gun laws, I'm gonna have my Brother Talk to the County CSheriffs and Courthouse about it and as a collector see what gives as far as qtys. go ... also to see if my Permit from 1973 is still on record and good or not...
Thanks Guys,
SG
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Old June 13, 2012, 07:15 PM   #13
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Try this link for any further questions guys ...
http://www.nyfirearms.com/blog/nys-gun-laws/
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Old June 13, 2012, 09:00 PM   #14
mightyoakwildlife
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http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article400.htm

As educators, it's our responsibility to know our material, and be mindful of what we tell others. Thankfully, a few sections of the laws are clear-cut and direct. Try this link, spend a little time familiarizing yourself with what the laws are, not what you hear via third-party. Some folks can mislead us unintentionally and unknowingly.


New York Penal Law - ARTICLE 400
LICENSING AND OTHER PROVISIONS RELATING TO FIREARMS

§ 400.00 Licenses to carry, possess, repair and dispose of firearms.


6. License: validity. Any license issued pursuant to this section
shall be valid notwithstanding the provisions of any local law or
ordinance. No license shall be transferable to any other person or
premises. A license to carry or possess a pistol or revolver, not
otherwise limited as to place or time of possession, shall be effective
throughout the state, except that the same shall not be valid within the
city of New York
unless a special permit granting validity is issued by
the police commissioner of that city.
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Old June 16, 2012, 10:23 AM   #15
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Um, as covered by the LEO law, and a loaded BP pistol is a "firearm" at that point, aren't u OK? I'm pretty sure you are. And, it USED to be that posession of a handgun in NY State meant touching it. Needed a permit even though it didn't have to be your gun (a gun shop couldn't let you handle a pistol unless u had a handgun permit). To his rare credit, Democrat Governor/King Cuomo-the-First tried to make posession "control" which meant you could be "supervised" to allow training/shooting/handling with a permit holder. But it failed at the time. Seems like that PASSED at some point since back then and so I think you could ALSO "train" your wife in NYS with anything at all you want to shoot. Probably even in NY City (but I'd give that a miss to be on the safe side).
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Old June 16, 2012, 09:29 PM   #16
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Al Den,
Yes as a LEO I can carry a loaded handgun in any state as long as I keep it concealed. The Law Enforcement Officer Safety Act is so an officer can carry a firearm out of state for protection purposes only. It should not be displayed or discharged otherwise.The LEOSA does not give me the permission to fire a modern handgun in a state where a permit is required from that state to possess the gun.

My question was shooting the black powder handgun in a recreational / gun range setting in New York state. I was hoping the black powder handgun would be permissible to shoot in New York, where a modern handgun would not. I was hoping that black powder guns were not restricted in New York state. Thanks to this thread I now know that I'll be leaving that pistol at home since it is not one I usually carry concealed.

I'll just go the range with my brother in law in New York and shoot some rifles.
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Old June 16, 2012, 10:24 PM   #17
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Smokin_gun , part of the confusion is that there are different types of permits in NYS.I sometimes forget that since I've had a full carry [unrestricted] for such a long time. Sometimes the judge puts on resrictions that are not quite legal.Of course if a new judge starts in a county any permit issued by him is to his choice. There are lawyers who are there to help you if they can.
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Old June 20, 2012, 01:41 AM   #18
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This is why I moved from Syracuse, NY to the Sovereign State of Mississipi.

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Old June 20, 2012, 07:55 AM   #19
twobit
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+1 to Doug. My brother in law feels the same way and that is why they will move down here as soon as he retires.

He's been nearly sixty years in the town he was born in. He says he is tired of the cold, the politics, the road salt, the state taxes, and the stupid gun laws. They will be building a house on the back side of our ranch down here in Texas.

I assured him he'd be able to walk out in his new back yard and spit, pee, or shoot without worry of anyone getting into his business. He said "Now that's all the freedom any man could want". This might be our last trip up there to see them before they move down here.
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Old June 20, 2012, 07:53 PM   #20
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I don't think even a LEO from elsewhere can carry a handgun in NY or at least in NYC. Even NY State Police are banned from entering the city with guns, as are any LE officers from NY state or anywhere else. And the NYPD has made it clear that they will NOT accept any Federal law to the contrary; they will make an arrest, jail the subject and let the "suits" worry about it.

A couple of years ago I spoke with a police sergeant from Kansas City, MO, who flew to NYC to pick up an extradicted prisoner. When he got off the plane at JFK, he was met by an NYPD Lieutenant, who made him open his suitcase right there and confiscated his gun. He was told that no one, NO ONE, was allowed to possess or carry a handgun in NYC except a permit holder or an NYC or federal officer. That did not include LEOs from anywhere else, even NY state, no matter why they were in the city.

When the prisoner was ready, he was taken on board the plane by NYPD officers, who then and only then returned the MO officer's handgun.

Jim
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Old June 20, 2012, 09:59 PM   #21
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S 265.20 Exemptions.
a. Sections 265.01, 265.02, 265.03, 265.04, 265.05, 265.10, 265.11,
265.12, 265.13, 265.15 and 270.05 shall not apply to:
1. Possession of any of the weapons, instruments, appliances or
substances specified
in sections 265.01, 265.02, 265.03, 265.04, 265.05
and 270.05 by the following:
(a) Persons in the military service of the state of New York when duly
authorized by regulations issued by the adjutant general to possess the
same.
. Read this to mean Active-Duty NY National Guard/Reserve, not when "Off-Duty", on leave, etc.
(b) Police officers as defined in subdivision thirty-four of section
1.20 of the criminal procedure law.
(c) Peace officers as defined by section 2.10 of the criminal
procedure law.

The emphasis above, relative to MIL is mine. NYC seems to be paranoid when it comes to the military presence, even after 9/11. I'm not sure what went wrong with your aquaintance from the KCPD, but in my 29+ years of wearing a badge for the State of New York, I've never heard of such a problem. There are even special provisions in both City Ordinance and State Laws to recognize RETIRED Peace/Police Officers who choose to carry when in the city.

My agency sends our Officers into the city (it's about three hours from here) seven days a week. No calls-ahead, no written agreement, nothing. Our guys are in both plain clothes and in uniform. As a matter of personal business, several of us go down there for "special occassions" such as shows, sporting events, etc. Many flash their badges at "appropriate" opportunities, as there is a great deal of professional recognition and appreciation. We are EXPECTED by the NYPD to be armed, as it adds an additional presence, weather the public is aware or not.

The city politicians are definately one of the most backward, rabid, senseless anti-gun groups I have ever observed. I would imagine that includes the prosecutor's office, as they're appointed by the pols or they serve as the other politicos. No way to understand it, but they're a whole lot different from the Boys in Blue.
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Old June 21, 2012, 05:53 PM   #22
Shotput79
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Sounds like a load of crap to me. You couldn't pay me all the money in the world to live in a place like that. Nothin aginst the people that live in it or haft to put up with it.
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Old June 22, 2012, 11:06 PM   #23
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LEOSA specifically exempts both currently employed and honorably separated LEO's from ANY state or local law relative to the carriage (read possession) of a concealed weapon they've qualified with under THEIR state's qualification requirement. Neither NYC/NYS nor any other jurisdiction (inclusivee of U.S. possessions) can prohibit such, provided the person is qualified and has the required ID with him.

My bet is that the use of that gun at a range would also meet the criteria of the provisions of LEOSA as the CCW prohibition itself is moot. There is no statement in that law that prohibits discharge whatsoever........frankly, I'm also a retired LEO & I wouldn't hesitate to engage in recreational practice and I most seriously doubt you'd get any hassle once your ID & qualification card was shown.


Incidentally, that CCW exemption INCLUDES weapons that otherwise might be prohibited in a restrictive jurisdiction and does not specify ONLY handguns!
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Old June 23, 2012, 04:53 PM   #24
mightyoakwildlife
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LEOSA

Sorry, but the OP was in reference to BP handguns, as I recall, and LEOSA in this day and age would likely not apply. The privilege to carry concealed only applies to the individual's firearm of a type that their dept./agency issued/authorized, and provided or allowed a qualification course for.
I'm not too familiar with the qual. courses other agencies are running, but I believe the time constraints, mag. change/speed loader drills included in ours would kinda' negate most of us from qualifying, even if we could find a CLEO and RO to sign-off on it.

The main question was if NY laws address his 1860 Army revolver. The short answer is a definite "YES", once also in posession of components necessary to fire it.
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