The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old June 8, 2012, 01:41 PM   #26
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,668
Some new information from a recent news story:

"Seconds later Houston Fire Department senior captain Ricky Johnson, who testified he was drunk at the party, moves closer to Rodriguez and makes fun of his camera. The argument ends there with the crack of gunfire. "

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/story/18...or-condemn-him

Johnson was one of the men shot by Rodriguez.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old June 8, 2012, 01:50 PM   #27
Tickling
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 17, 2011
Posts: 181
Quote:
"Prosecutors said Rodriguez was not in fear for his life and had ample opportunity to leave the confrontation he started....
Yes.. Because prosecutors are unbiased. RemembCer it's their job to win cases.

I think some people here are armchairing this to death. From the video it looks like there is a good chance he was NOT on the deceased property. As someone else already mentioned, at one point in the movie one of the parygoers said "theres a [crazy?] man with a gun in the street." Knowing how some parties go, it's no surprise if it spread to the front of the house/street.

As for not "retreating" if there were cops there, then maybe he was depending on them to intervene. Also, at the end of the video it looks like he WAS starting to walk away and got tackled when he turned his back.

Now about it being justified. It's up to the jury, but I can count 3-4 and there probably a LOT more drunk partiers who look to be siding with the deceased. The defendant, Rodriguez, at one point says that they have weapons as well. Which also isn't a stretch of the imagination (broken beer bottles, etc.). I know I'd be in fear for MY life.

If you think about it, the events leading up to the shooting could happen to any of us. It's quite quaint to say "just go to bed" or let the "police handle it." But it sounds like this was not the first time this had happened and the police were called. I'm not sure if Rodriguez is a current or retired firefighter, but remember that often they work long shifts. I know that after working an 18 hour shift at the hospital I'd be a bit testy if kept awake by my neighbors.

While I concur that the situation was badly handled, I do think that this very situation could easily happen to someone with the most innocent motives, e.i., you or me.
Tickling is offline  
Old June 8, 2012, 01:57 PM   #28
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,676
Nope, I don't think this one could happen to most folks with quality training or common sense.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old June 8, 2012, 02:07 PM   #29
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,423
Quote:
"Seconds later Houston Fire Department senior captain Ricky Johnson, who testified he was drunk at the party, moves closer to Rodriguez and makes fun of his camera. The argument ends there with the crack of gunfire. "
I think that is a bit misleading. It gives the impression that Rodriguez fired because his camera was insulted. The argument did end, but I can't see where the insult to the camera is what caused Rodriguez to shoot.

Quote:
Yes.. Because prosecutors are unbiased. RemembCer it's their job to win cases.
No, it is their job to prosecute cases. However, you don't have to believe the prosecutor that Rodriguez did had ample opportunity to remove himself from the situation. If he was in fear for his life as he claimed, there was nothing stopping him from walking away to the safety of his own home, but he didn't. That is shown in the video.

Quote:
Now about it being justified. It's up to the jury, but I can count 3-4 and there probably a LOT more drunk partiers who look to be siding with the deceased. The defendant, Rodriguez, at one point says that they have weapons as well. Which also isn't a stretch of the imagination (broken beer bottles, etc.). I know I'd be in fear for MY life.
And so instead of backing off, you would instead continue to try running your camera, being on the phone with 911, keeping a gun in hand, and using your flashlight like Rodriguez? His behavoir doesn't seem to indicate that he is in fear for his life. Why would all of those things be more important to him than trying to remove himself from the situation?

I guess you could argue that he multitasked himself into dysfunction or maybe he could not walk away because he was running some of his gear with his feet. I don't know, but his actions and his words do not indicate that he was in fear for his life, despite claiming he was.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old June 8, 2012, 02:10 PM   #30
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,738
I must respectfully disagree that this is something "that could happen to any of us".

The problem with this logic is that this isn't something that "happened". Robberies, rapes, muggings, these things "happen". This is something he DID, and there's a huge, huge difference.

This could not "happen" to me because I will not initiate confrontation. I will not go looking for trouble. I avoid trouble and deescalate problems at every opportunity. I leave, given any chance. I will not stay unless there is no choice. I will not argue, insult or otherwise escalate a problem.

I have watched that video a couple times now and I come away with the, I believe inescapable, conclusion that he got exactly what he went looking for, exactly what he wanted. This isn't something that happened to him, it's something he did.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old June 8, 2012, 04:36 PM   #31
Mr. James
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2001
Location: The Old Dominion
Posts: 1,521
Absolutely, Mr. Pfleuger,

This doesn't "happen" to me, either. I tend to avoid confrontations with neighbors because (a) they're my neighbors, and (b) just as I want to be left unmolested in my daily affairs, I don't believe in molesting them in theirs, even if they are somewhat noisome (and noisy).

That would have to be one out-of-control party for me to even approach the house, smiling, sans flashlight and video camera, with a polite request that they lower the music just a wee bit. More likely, I would just grit my teeth and bear it. Parties, even drunken parties, have a curious tendency to lose steam and peter out after a while. If this were a frequent recurring phenomenon, and the polite smile wasn't working, I'd ask the county police to intervene.
__________________
"...A humble and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Ps. li

"When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law." —Frederic Bastiat
Mr. James is offline  
Old June 8, 2012, 04:39 PM   #32
Tickling
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 17, 2011
Posts: 181
Maybe I should clarify. I said, "the events leading up to the shooting could happen to any of us."

I don't know the whole situation, but come on, suppose you had a neighbor who threw loud parties (from the video it sounds like this had happened before), you called the cops and not much happens. So, perhaps you decide to get some evidence for a more formal complaint/suit. You get a camera and a flashlight and strap on your CCW before you leave the house, perhaps out of habit.

Now here is where the path diverges from "could happen to any of us." Hopefully when confronted with escalation/threat of force in this instance most of us would take the option of retreat. That Rodriguez should have done this I can't argue with. All I was trying to say is that many of us could easily get in this very situation, the difference of course, is HOW we handle it. It's easy, and foolish IMHO, to say "that you would NEVER confront a neighbor in this situation." I live in an apartment complex with other college students and I've asked my neighbors to keep it down (no video camera or gun tho) a few times and could see the situation escalating if I let it.

Training is good. Rational behavior you can't always depend on, even for YOU. We're human after all, it's easy for the mind to get knocked off balance. I see it at the hospital all the time.
Tickling is offline  
Old June 8, 2012, 04:53 PM   #33
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,738
That's the problem....

You DON'T go looking for evidence. You DON'T strap on your gun.

Sure, anybody might have loud neighbors and cops who don't care, but that's the end of the "it could happen to any of us" because after that, everything he did was wrong. He escalated, antagonized, failed to leave, initiated...


What you do is file a formal complaint against the police department. You talk to a lawyer about a "cease and desist" order, or whatever it would be called. You take smart, legal actions not stupid, antagonistic actions.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old June 8, 2012, 05:12 PM   #34
Tickling
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 17, 2011
Posts: 181
I respect your opinion Mr. Pfleuger. And while I agree with you that hiring a lawyer and going through a process of some kind might be "safer," it is not always the best option.

If I hired a lawyer or filled out forms at the local PD every time my neighbors were rowdy during finals week I'd either be broke or wasting a lot of time. Thankfully usually a little politeness works and if not, I have the option of bunking someplace else for the night.

Not everyone can just leave, not everyone can just ignore it, not everyone can afford to drop a grand or two on a lawyer for a noise complaint. A lot of people here have said that if they leave their house they have a gun on. I know several people who when making complaints (trespassing etc.) have been told by the police to get photographs/videos (evidence).

I'm not saying what he did was right. I'm just pointing out that up until he stood there chanting "I'm in fear of my life" and brandishing, he really hadn't done anything terribly unreasonable.
Tickling is offline  
Old June 8, 2012, 05:17 PM   #35
m&p45acp10+1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 3,307
Thinking on this situation my grampa's words ring in my mind.

"If you feel you need a gun to go do something out of fear of a person attacking you. Do not go do it."

When carrying I try to live up to that. I ask myself. "If I left my gun at home, would I be here right now?" If I even slightly doubt I would. I leave right then.

I have had problems with neighbors before. Luckily I was renting. I cut losses on the deposit, and moved. To me it was just not worth it.
__________________
No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.
m&p45acp10+1 is offline  
Old June 8, 2012, 06:16 PM   #36
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
In the past, when friends or I have thrown potentially loud parties, we've invited the neighbors.

It's funny how they tend not to complain when they've been invited, even when they do not choose to attend.

I have to wonder if there were other causes for bad blood in this case than just the parties.
MLeake is offline  
Old June 8, 2012, 11:40 PM   #37
Catfishman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2009
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 685
Quote:
Jerks like this guy do more to skew public opinion against gun owners and SYG laws than all of the anti gun activists put together.
I completely agree! Guys don't need to wade into a confrontation, start a verbal assault and feel that it's perfectly ok to mow someone down if it turns physical. I'm afraid some gun owners think SYG gives them this right.

I wish SYG was more clearly understood. I don't want 'a duty to retreat' but a clarification, or maybe maybe a renaming of SYG might help dim witted cowards understand.
Catfishman is offline  
Old June 9, 2012, 06:05 AM   #38
icedog88
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 16, 2011
Location: norwich ct
Posts: 737
To say he "strapped on a gun" before going outside sounds like media skewing. Whenever I go outside, I "strap on".
On the other hand he could have left before brandishing. After he did draw, and threats were made, that's where it gets a bit hairy. As I stated earlier, from the video, it seems like he was never in the neighbors yard but in the street. SYG applies to places where an individual has a legal right to be.
After he drew and one guy says that he will go get his and be equal is where he might actually started to really feel scared. Obviously he was attacked, hence the shaking of the camera and then the shot. His fear was realized, but the questions for me are;
Did he have a legal right to document the obnoxious party? Yes.
Was he armed legally? Yes.
Did he brandish the firearm? Yes, but after a crowd of drunks were advancing on him.
Could he have left safely before brandishing? Yes, but did he legally have to being in the street where it appears he was when the actual confrontation started?
Not saying he is in the right or wrong I can definitely see arguments for both.
__________________
"The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps"-LtGen. Holland M "Howlin' Mad" Smith, USMC,1949
Have you forgotten yet? Look down and swear by the slain of the War that you'll NEVER forget. [Siegfried Sassoon,"Aftermath,"1919]
icedog88 is offline  
Old June 9, 2012, 07:18 AM   #39
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,423
Quote:
I have watched that video a couple times now and I come away with the, I believe inescapable, conclusion that he got exactly what he went looking for, exactly what he wanted. This isn't something that happened to him, it's something he did.
Yes, but looking for it isn't illegal.

Quote:
You DON'T strap on your gun.
Quote:
To say he "strapped on a gun" before going outside sounds like media skewing. Whenever I go outside, I "strap on".
I don't see where this would be media skewing if the statement is valid. It isn't like others don't strap on guns before going out. Ayoob talks about doing this and apparently we have forum members that also describe doing this as well.
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob69.html

In fact, it is a phrase he has used numerous times.
https://www.google.com/search?source...ayoob+strap+on
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old June 9, 2012, 07:32 AM   #40
icedog88
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 16, 2011
Location: norwich ct
Posts: 737
Quote:
I don't see where this would be media skewing if the statement is valid. It isn't like others don't strap on guns before going out. Ayoob talks about doing this and apparently we have forum members that also describe doing this as well.
Except it makes it seem that this was the only time he did it instead of as part of a normal routine.
__________________
"The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps"-LtGen. Holland M "Howlin' Mad" Smith, USMC,1949
Have you forgotten yet? Look down and swear by the slain of the War that you'll NEVER forget. [Siegfried Sassoon,"Aftermath,"1919]
icedog88 is offline  
Old June 9, 2012, 09:00 AM   #41
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,738
I don't care much about the legality of his initial actions. Legal doesn't imply smart.

I believe he intended it to go exactly like it did and he thought SYG would protect him. If SYG laws will be used to justify the behavior we see in that video, I would actively oppose them.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old June 9, 2012, 09:38 AM   #42
icedog88
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 16, 2011
Location: norwich ct
Posts: 737
I think in a sense, he may have wanted a confrontation, but it's hard to say that he wanted to shoot someone. If taking a gun when you go outside means you want to shoot someone, then aren't we all going to be guilty if something happens?
__________________
"The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps"-LtGen. Holland M "Howlin' Mad" Smith, USMC,1949
Have you forgotten yet? Look down and swear by the slain of the War that you'll NEVER forget. [Siegfried Sassoon,"Aftermath,"1919]
icedog88 is offline  
Old June 9, 2012, 09:50 AM   #43
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,668
Yeah, this guy is going to get murder 1 if the news reports are correct.

One of his past neighbors is going to testify that Rodriguez did the same thing with their family (Come over to complain, create a scene, pull a gun and claim he was in fear for his life). He also apparently was the only person the local firefighters union ever kicked out . They gave him the axe for being "divisive and paranoid.". According to this article, Rodriguez had engaged in similar behavior in his old neighborhood.
Source: http://www.khou.com/home/Former-neig...157943785.html

Additionally ABC 13 in Houston reports that the jury will not hear the testimony of a neighbor who claims that Rodriguez bragged to her that you could basically shoot anyone you wanted as long as you said you were in fear for your life.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old June 9, 2012, 11:15 AM   #44
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,423
Quote:
I don't care much about the legality of his initial actions. Legal doesn't imply smart.
Maybe I missed it, but I don't think anyone here has said that what Rodriguez did was smart. As for the legality of his actions, that is the crux of trial being discussed, isn't it?

Quote:
I believe he intended it to go exactly like it did and he thought SYG would protect him. If SYG laws will be used to justify the behavior we see in that video, I would actively oppose them.
So you think SYG laws are a good idea so long as people behave the way you think they should behave, but don't like SYG when they behave counter to how you think they should behave, though (possibly) in a legal manner?

The issues of not being smart and not behaving in accord with your standards are problems rampant in the legal system. I can't begin to tell you the number of people I know who do perfectly legal things that I don't approve of them doing. There would be a lot of laws taken off the books if that was the case and several new ones added. After all, boys are going to date my daughters and no doubt try to exploit the legality of doing so to their advantage. It is terrible, but just because I don't approve of it doesn't mean it needs to be codified by law...at least that is what my Texas House Representative indicated to me.

It is a tough call. Given that he looks to be using SYG in a manner you don't approve, basically for the purposes of a legal advantage for a lethal force incident, then I take it that you would actively oppose concealed carry for the same reason. After all, no doubt the justification for him showing up armed was because he had the legal ability to do so and he used it to his advantage.

It is a very slippery slope when we start deciding that we don't like laws because some people can use them in manners we don't approve. With a paradigm like that, I can see guns rights disappearing very quickly.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old June 9, 2012, 11:50 AM   #45
brickeyee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2004
Posts: 3,342
Quote:
It is a tough call.
Nope.

he was in a place he did not have any right to be.

Virginia has no SYG statute, but it is deeply bedded in our common law.

It does not apply if you are in a place you are not legally entitled to be.
brickeyee is offline  
Old June 9, 2012, 12:08 PM   #46
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,738
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNS
Maybe I missed it, but I don't think anyone here has said that what Rodriguez did was smart. As for the legality of his actions, that is the crux of trial being discussed, isn't it?
Not in the context of that quote, we're not. We're talking about his initial actions. Legal but stupid. Later actions even more stupid and either are or should be illegal.


And yes, if SYG allows someone to arm themselves, provoke confrontation and then shoot someone, I would oppose them. That is not responsible behavior.

You can spin my approval of SYG any way you see fit. The law should protect the guy who is walking back to his car from a movie and gets mugged, not the guy who arms himself with the intent to create a confrontation, who does not disengage when given multiple opportunities, continues to antagonize, threatens (or suggests) violence where there is none and then kills someone when the incident gets out of control.

That's my opinion. I'm not going have a discussion based on semantics, absurd extrapolations and intentional spin.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old June 9, 2012, 12:49 PM   #47
icedog88
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 16, 2011
Location: norwich ct
Posts: 737
Quote:
Nope.

he was in a place he did not have any right to be.
Which was where exactly? The confrontation seems to have taken place in the street! At least from the video.
__________________
"The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps"-LtGen. Holland M "Howlin' Mad" Smith, USMC,1949
Have you forgotten yet? Look down and swear by the slain of the War that you'll NEVER forget. [Siegfried Sassoon,"Aftermath,"1919]
icedog88 is offline  
Old June 9, 2012, 03:34 PM   #48
Doc Maker
Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2010
Location: Kent, WA
Posts: 67
The video only shows an edited version of the last seven minutes of a 22 minute tape. Apparently, he went onto the driveway and was confronted.
Doc Maker is offline  
Old June 9, 2012, 04:30 PM   #49
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,668
According to the testimony of one of the men who was shot, the confrontation on the video was described as happening "in the middle of the driveway.".
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old June 9, 2012, 04:42 PM   #50
youngunz4life
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2010
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,877
I don't believe he was on the deceased or party goer's property. It is possible he was on some sort of easeway. Personally every little bit is gonna help for this guy: the police being there, the not on property part, being in TX instead of NJ, etc and the main reason why is that stuff seems to be pennies and nickels compared to the 100 dollar bills and checkbook the prosecutor has. the guy seems like an idiot. I don' think he went out there trying to kill someone, but no a retired citizen absolutely does not strap on a gun over a noise disturbance at a neighbor's house. The cop probably got an ass-chewing after-the-fact but he was probably beside himself...a noise disturbance isn't even a misdemeanor crime it is a ticket. It is his house and he has every right to blare music until if and when the cops ticket him and he keeps ignoring police warnings. None of which so far mentions the fact that the guy is emotional and letting his frustration and emotions run his actions. There is no place for that while holding a gun. These guys are drunk and obviously stupid for pushing the issue with a man with a gun. Also, the guy seems stubborn as an ox and a mule put together: "I am in fear of my life, i am standing my ground"....basially i am on the phone and since I am in this situation I am going to shoot someone instead of retreating because I am an(fill in the blanks). I might be right and justified with my wife, but that doesn't give me the right to argue and fight with her all of the time too. Either way this guy is gonna have to take major accountability in a plea deal or roll the dice and hope to get lucky...the camera might save him but I don't think so...who knows. Also, i see no evidence in the video of him trying to leave....he is emotional and wants a phone operating officer to hear people in the backround upset over a man threatening with a firearm. i would be upset too
__________________
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864
youngunz4life is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14745 seconds with 7 queries