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Old August 13, 2012, 04:37 PM   #1
Erikbal
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situation question, inspired by a dream...

Alright guys I've got a kind of unique question. The other night I had a dream that someone I know and am not afraid of, walked up to me and stabbed me in the chest a couple times. In the dream I drew my pistol and got a couple of shots off, but missed them as they were running and were already a ways away from me. Lucky for me the wounds weren't real deep and not fatal. Anyways my question is this...what if this REALLY happened, if someone unexpectedly approached you and stabbed or assaulted you before you had the chance to defend yourself and they instantly retreated, would it be right or wrong to try and get a shot off on them AFTER they already hurt you? Obviously I am talking if you could take a shot at them without anyone elses life being put at risk. Would this be considered self defense or would you get in trouble for it? Thanks guys!
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Old August 13, 2012, 04:47 PM   #2
MLeake
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That would depend. Do I have a reasonable fear that if I lose consciousness, they will come back to finish the job?

Or, in some locales, do I have a reasonable fear that they will immediately go on to harm others?
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Old August 13, 2012, 04:51 PM   #3
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Thats not a dream

That"s a freaking nightmare! To answer your question I would most likely take a shot with the belief that a person stabbing me meant me deadly harm and therefore was an immediate threat to me and others.

If I was having dreams of that nature I would be exploring why. Maybe your subconscious knows something that you don't.

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Old August 13, 2012, 06:18 PM   #4
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That's pretty bizarre.

Well, in Texas, since you weren't dead yet, the other guy was in the process of commiting murder. That entitles you to a jury presumption that your fear of imminent death or severe bodily injury was reasonable.

But that's just a presumption.

If the guy were running away, it wouldn't look like your fear was reasonable.

However, if you testified that you knew you were hurt and thought the guy was running off to get something to finish the job, I imagine that a Texas jury would buy it whether it was true or not.

As to your question about what I would do if someone I knew and trusted walked up to me and pulled a knife and stabbed me, well I'd probably get killed.
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Old August 13, 2012, 06:32 PM   #5
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As always, everything depends on exactly happens and how it happens.

Even if you've already been injured, you can certainly continue to try to defend yourself if you can articulate why a reasonable person in like circumstance would conclude that the assailant was going to continue the attack. But if the assailant has broken off and fled, you'd be hard pressed to be able to justify your continued use of force.

Those are, in fact, the basic rules. In other words, just because you were injured first doesn't change the law of self defense.
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Old August 13, 2012, 07:02 PM   #6
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Here in Az I'd shoot for sure. I've had one chance to defend myself during an assault ( I used my hands and a knife) in New York State and it was a very touchy situation legally. I won't go there again. Seems if you are fast and well trained they hold it against you even if you have enough consideration to let the idiot live. There's no way I'd take a shot at someone who was running away in a liberal state especially if i had any training.
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Old August 13, 2012, 07:23 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgrundy
Here in Az I'd shoot for sure. ...There's no way I'd take a shot at someone who was running away in a liberal state...
Folks need to get over that business about liberal or conservative States.

On one hand, in gun friendly States, we have --

Larry Hickey, in gun friendly Arizona: He was arrested, spent 71 days in jail, went through two different trials ending in hung juries, was forced to move from his house, etc., before the DA decided it was a good shoot and dismissed the charges.

Mark Abshire in Oklahoma: Despite defending himself against multiple attackers on his own lawn in a fairly gun-friendly state with a "Stand Your Ground" law, he was arrested, went to jail, charged, lost his job and his house, and spent two and a half years in the legal meat-grinder before finally being acquitted.

Harold Fish, also in gun friendly Arizona: He was still convicted and sent to prison. He won his appeal, his conviction was overturned, and a new trial was ordered. The DA chose to dismiss the charges rather than retry Mr. Fish.

On the other hand, this guy shot and killed a fleeing robber and was given a "pass" in.....Illinois.
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Old August 13, 2012, 07:44 PM   #8
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Quote:
Folks need to get over that business about liberal or conservative States.

On one hand, in gun friendly States, we have --

Larry Hickey, in gun friendly Arizona: He was arrested, spent 71 days in jail, went through two different trials ending in hung juries, was forced to move from his house, etc., before the DA decided it was a good shoot and dismissed the charges.

Mark Abshire in Oklahoma: Despite defending himself against multiple attackers on his own lawn in a fairly gun-friendly state with a "Stand Your Ground" law, he was arrested, went to jail, charged, lost his job and his house, and spent two and a half years in the legal meat-grinder before finally being acquitted.

Harold Fish, also in gun friendly Arizona: He was still convicted and sent to prison. He won his appeal, his conviction was overturned, and a new trial was ordered. The DA chose to dismiss the charges rather than retry Mr. Fish.

On the other hand, this guy shot and killed a fleeing robber and was given a "pass" in.....Illinois.
Powerful message there.
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Old August 13, 2012, 08:43 PM   #9
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STOP eating Pizza and Icecream before bedtime!
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Old August 13, 2012, 08:49 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Daggitt
STOP eating Pizza and Icecream before bedtime!
Ordinarily, I'd delete that post as off topic. But in this case, it might well be apt.
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Old August 14, 2012, 03:52 AM   #11
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STOP eating Pizza and Icecream before bedtime!

That'll do it.
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Old August 14, 2012, 06:28 AM   #12
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In all my dreams the gun won't go off. So I don't have your problem. I have a different one.
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Old August 14, 2012, 08:30 AM   #13
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If someone had just finished stabbing you, I would assume it to be grounds for a defense, however if they were leaving or retreating it may be viewed that the threat has ended and you are no longer in imminent danger.

Suppose it could be likened to being robbed at gunpoint and shooting your robber after he already has your wallet and is leaving.
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Old August 14, 2012, 08:57 AM   #14
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The way you say it, sounds like it might be revenge to shoot him after he runs. The prosecuting DA might not swallow your rationalizations of he might come back so I had to shoot him in the back. Isn't the idea to survive? You're cut, he's running...make ready in case he does come back, but you usually don't have to shoot anyone to survive.

Quote:
In all my dreams the gun won't go off.
It used to be that way in my dreams. The gun would malf or the bullet would fall out the end of the barrel. I believe this is related to confidence. When I started practicing more and becoming a better shot, suddenly my guns began working in my dreams. I have no way of knowing if you have a confidence problem, I only relate my experience.
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Old August 14, 2012, 11:20 AM   #15
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You are correct, Mr. Edward. You know nothing about me. But regarding those dreams, not that I had many like this, I seem to recall that it was like I couldn't pull the trigger far enough to make it work. You know, like using a Nagant revolver. But I've never had that problem when I was awake.
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Old August 14, 2012, 09:40 PM   #16
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Quote:
If someone had just finished stabbing you, I would assume it to be grounds for a defense, however if they were leaving or retreating it may be viewed that the threat has ended and you are no longer in imminent danger.

Suppose it could be likened to being robbed at gunpoint and shooting your robber after he already has your wallet and is leaving.
'
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As; is usually the case, it will depend on the State you are in, the prosecutor and maybe the jury. If it is night and he is fleeing with the wallet, in Texas shooting to stop the criminal from escaping with the loot, might very well be nobilled. Just recently an old man in Texas shot at two robbers, even fired shots after the robber ran out of the store. I really thought that guy was going to get charged but the prosecutor did not press it. In the excitement of the moment I guess the old man did not realize the robber was no longer a threat. I don't recall where in Texas it was, just that one was shot, the other arrested later.

A police officer friend told me about a man shooting at two burglars running away with the loot with squirrel shot in a 12 gauge, and hitting one a couple of nights ago. I asked him if they arrested the homeowner, he said no, that he was defending his property (and it being night time).

In those cases location makes a great deal of difference, because I figure in most states the homeowner would be arrested, as well as the old man who shot at the fleeing robbers.
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Old August 14, 2012, 10:01 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasJustice7
... Just recently an old man in Texas shot at two robbers, even fired shots after the robber ran out of the store. I really thought that guy was going to get charged but the prosecutor did not press it. In the excitement of the moment I guess the old man did not realize the robber was no longer a threat. I don't recall where in Texas it was,...
Are you thinking of the case in which an older fellow shot and chased a couple of armed robbers out of an Internet Cafe? If so, that happened in Florida. Where in Texas is Florida?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasJustice7
...In those cases location makes a great deal of difference,...
On the other hand, see post 7. What will really matter the most are exactly what happened and how clear the evidence supporting the claim of justification is.
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Old August 15, 2012, 04:01 AM   #18
TexasJustice7
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I think the case I heard mentioned on the news awhile back was in Texas. It was on the news, and it appeared to me the old man let off a shot at the fleeing robber through the door. I believe it was on Fox, so I won't dispute for sure that it was not in Florida. I remember thinking at the time that the old man would probably be charged, and that the old man was over 70.

The other cases I mentioned happened near where I live. With regard to the old man, I heard later that a decision had been made not to prosecute.
And I don't remember if it was an internet cafe, I think the one I saw was a convenience store. Seems to me like the old man himself was not the object of the robber's attention. I only saw the footage on it one time.
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Old August 15, 2012, 10:40 AM   #19
TexasJustice7
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Quote:
Are you thinking of the case in which an older fellow shot and chased a couple of armed robbers out of an Internet Cafe? If so, that happened in Florida. Where in Texas is Florida?
Well I went checking another forum and found a video of the incident I remember, and you are right, it did happen in Florida. I had not seen the video on a website, but only saw it on Fox. And again rewatching the video it looks like he let go a shot after the robbers were outside the door.

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Old August 15, 2012, 04:48 PM   #20
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As; is usually the case, it will depend on the State you are in, the prosecutor and maybe the jury
Yup, in Ohio at least you cannot defend property, only yourself (and others)
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Old August 15, 2012, 08:55 PM   #21
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Shoot him or at him in most of Ohio, . . . you would probably wish that you did not do that.

If he is running away, . . . or retreating in any manner, . . . HE has disengaged the situation, . . . if you re-engage it, . . . YOU are the aggressor. This would be doubly sure in Columbus, . . . the mayor there must be some long lost cousin or half brother to Bloomburg, . . . they think alike.

May God bless,
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Old August 16, 2012, 01:47 PM   #22
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I think Dwight is right on this. At least here in Fl., once the attacker turns away, its over.

If you do anything from that point on, you're not the aggressor.
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Old August 16, 2012, 03:31 PM   #23
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Oh, man! I quit having dreams like that about two years after I got out of the USMC. Try meditation or exercise or something.

My reply to your question would be:
You say you've just been stabbed twice in the chest and you fall down. The assailant retreats. What makes you think you are going to be capable of firing a few shots at them? Having seen people get stabbed, they like freak out, grabbing at the wound, looking at the blood, etc. Stabbed in the chest, they often get really scared and become incoherent. I think you would likely have other things on your mind. Edged weapons have a strange effect on people.

But legally, since the assailant is retreating, I think you would be in deep hooey pretty quick if you nailed him.
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Old August 17, 2012, 02:55 PM   #24
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I also often have dreams where the gun won't fire, or I pull it out and it falls apart in my hand. I have no confidence issues with my guns, neither have ever failed to fire once, maybe it's myself that I lack confidence in?
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Old August 18, 2012, 05:30 PM   #25
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Quote:
I think Dwight is right on this. At least here in Fl., once the attacker turns away, its over.

If you do anything from that point on, you're not the aggressor.
I remember it happening back in the 80's- a guy on a bicycle went into a welding shop and shot several people. Two guys at an adjacent shop chased him down in a van and killed him. State attorney (Janet Reno at the time?) said it was a justifiable use of force under our statutes. Not exactly a precedent, though.
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