The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

View Poll Results: Do you think this video should be promoted to new shooters?
Yes 11 26.83%
No 25 60.98%
Maybe 5 12.20%
Voters: 41. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 2, 2012, 05:14 PM   #1
johnwilliamson062
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 6,759
What do you think of this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIAEF-orPYE
__________________
$0 of an NRA membership goes to legislative action or court battles. Not a dime. Only money contributed to the NRA-ILA or NRA-PVF. You could just donate to the Second Amendment Foundation
First Shotgun Thread First Rifle Thread First Pistol Thread
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old June 2, 2012, 05:26 PM   #2
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 4,880
I voted yes, all except for the parts of them pointing guns at one another.
Hard to avoid, though, at the counter when looking at and showing them.
Otherwise, good info, in mho.
__________________
Lock the doors, they're coming in the windows.
g.willikers is offline  
Old June 2, 2012, 07:42 PM   #3
SatCong
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2004
Location: Twangtown
Posts: 175
Not good, voted "No"..
These comments may be construed as "negatives":

Camera shake.
If the customer has questions (ballistics?) she should ask those questions.
Customers nails look bad.
Reflection of overhead lighting in counter-top glass in shot of hand fitting gun is distracting.
Anyone speaking should be working from a memorized script.
Off camera questions to counter person was met with a barely suppressed giggle.
Background is busy and unkempt.
A cut to a close-up of each presented firearm would break the visual boredom.
The customer presents as a mindless "prop".

That is all I can comment on, since I declined to watch further.

Mike
SatCong is offline  
Old June 2, 2012, 08:12 PM   #4
johnwilliamson062
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 6,759
well, as to the professionalism of the video from a videographer perspective I am not as concerned. I was wondering about the information given. I am not too concerned about whether the people using this video look professional(they aren't professionals to begin with as they are volunteers), but whether they are distributing bad information. Think about what is being said and think about whether it is clear and truthful from the perspective of someone who knows nothing about guns(the target audience).
__________________
$0 of an NRA membership goes to legislative action or court battles. Not a dime. Only money contributed to the NRA-ILA or NRA-PVF. You could just donate to the Second Amendment Foundation
First Shotgun Thread First Rifle Thread First Pistol Thread

Last edited by johnwilliamson062; June 4, 2012 at 12:00 AM.
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old June 2, 2012, 09:12 PM   #5
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
Quote:
$0 of an NRA membership goes to legislative action or court battles. Not a dime. Only money contributed to the NRA-ILA or NRA-PVF.
Good Grief, John, the NRA created an organization within an organization that raises it's own funds to specifically initiate legislative action, and you criticize the NRA for not using funds from the general membership to do what the ILA is doing on it's own by recruiting it's own membership.

Maybe you should think that one over a little bit.

As for the video, I'd rather see the inexperienced gal get advice from someone other than a salesman. In fairness, he was reasonably knowledgeable, but the poor gal still doesn't have a clue. Get the girl to a range and let her shoot some different pistols and she'll know what one she wants.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old June 2, 2012, 09:44 PM   #6
johnwilliamson062
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 6,759
Off topic so I won't reply here. Replied by PM.
__________________
$0 of an NRA membership goes to legislative action or court battles. Not a dime. Only money contributed to the NRA-ILA or NRA-PVF. You could just donate to the Second Amendment Foundation
First Shotgun Thread First Rifle Thread First Pistol Thread

Last edited by johnwilliamson062; June 3, 2012 at 11:50 PM.
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old June 3, 2012, 03:29 AM   #7
MarkDozier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 1, 2010
Posts: 338
Let me list why I said no:
Guy did not properly clear weapons
21 feet is not self defense distance set in any law.
Guy did not engage customer
Guy does not really understand what a good grip is
Girl was acting dumb as a box of rocks
Off screen questions did nothing to help the chick.
The guy does not explain ballistics properly
I can't list anymore as it was to painful to watch anymore.
MarkDozier is offline  
Old June 3, 2012, 06:20 AM   #8
Manson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 23, 2012
Posts: 118
I would be impressed if I walked into a gun store and found an employee with that much patience and knowledge.
Manson is offline  
Old June 3, 2012, 08:01 AM   #9
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 2,641
I voted yes.

As a relatively new shooter (9mths, now), I can say this info would have been useful to me. If nothing else it would have put some facts in simple terms, without lots of jargon that I had not yet learnt.

The bit about the relative ballistics I think was good. Noobs, myself included, can be susceptible to all the online opinions on things like caliber. As we all know, ballistics often comes down to personal preference. Similarly, some of the camera-man's leading questions were also useful, such as the one about clarifying ballistics...

Also, being a video, I could see the advice being given in context, rather than described in a post.

So I think the concept is fine.
If it were to be included in some kind of course, then you'd need to probably re-shoot the video with perhaps better kit: mike's, a higher res camera etc. However, if you could keep that natural, unscripted feel, that would be great.

Out of interest: is the shop owner from the US? His accent sounds English, with hints of Aussie, but then all his syntax was in American English. Just curious.
__________________
You cannot wake someone who is pretending to sleep. Stop pretending. Wake up.
Doubt: ...it's the only thing I'm sure of...
-Marsupials: Nature's idea of Concealed-Carry-
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old June 3, 2012, 12:25 PM   #10
johnwilliamson062
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 6,759
My reaction was closer to that of Mark Dozier. This video was produced and posted by some people in a small 2A organization with an audience of more new shooters, especially female than in most crowds. I think the off topic information is not correct in many instances. The ballistics information, then the explanation of the revolver trigger pull specifically. More than likely 100+ college students with limited knowledge of firearms were exposed to this video.
__________________
$0 of an NRA membership goes to legislative action or court battles. Not a dime. Only money contributed to the NRA-ILA or NRA-PVF. You could just donate to the Second Amendment Foundation
First Shotgun Thread First Rifle Thread First Pistol Thread

Last edited by johnwilliamson062; June 3, 2012 at 01:15 PM.
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old June 3, 2012, 01:06 PM   #11
Jo6pak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 5, 2010
Location: West Coast...of WI
Posts: 1,452
Good information overall. A good starting point for a more involved discussion on the topic.

Could use a little refinement, but I still voted yes
__________________
NRA Life Member, SAF contributor.
Jo6pak is offline  
Old June 3, 2012, 01:17 PM   #12
johnwilliamson062
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 6,759
My guess is the shop owner is from England but has lived in the US for a long time. I don't know him personally nor have I ever been to the shop in this video.
__________________
$0 of an NRA membership goes to legislative action or court battles. Not a dime. Only money contributed to the NRA-ILA or NRA-PVF. You could just donate to the Second Amendment Foundation
First Shotgun Thread First Rifle Thread First Pistol Thread
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old June 3, 2012, 03:11 PM   #13
johnwilliamson062
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 6,759
I also agree with Manson. As far as employees, although I believe this man is the owner, what I saw here was well above par. I still don't think this is training material quality though.
__________________
$0 of an NRA membership goes to legislative action or court battles. Not a dime. Only money contributed to the NRA-ILA or NRA-PVF. You could just donate to the Second Amendment Foundation
First Shotgun Thread First Rifle Thread First Pistol Thread
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old June 3, 2012, 04:41 PM   #14
cole k
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 31, 2008
Location: east of the Big Muddy
Posts: 233
The video was poorly made.
cole k is offline  
Old June 3, 2012, 05:23 PM   #15
Buzzcook
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 5,604
The worth of information is relative to the knowledge of the recipient.
While this video contains worth while information, without some clarification the newbie might make some poor assumptions.

If a new shooter had access to someone who could clarify some points this video would be fine.

So my vote is maybe.
Buzzcook is offline  
Old June 3, 2012, 06:01 PM   #16
JimPage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2010
Location: Rome, NY
Posts: 628
I voted "no." Why would someone want to use such an amateurish production when there are well made videos readilly available? It just doesn't make sense. No matter how good the information is, the amateurish production creates doubt about the value of the information. Credibility is important in teaching, and the poor production lowers the credibility!
__________________
Jim Page

Cogito, ergo armatum sum
JimPage is offline  
Old June 3, 2012, 09:27 PM   #17
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,538
Too many small mistakes, mostly gun handling problems. Muzzle control was abysmal.

When teaching beginners, it's very important to always model proper, safe gun handling and to always correct (gently) every student error we see. That's the way to start forming the right habits.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old June 3, 2012, 09:33 PM   #18
johnwilliamson062
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 6,759
Jim could you point me to a better video that is free? Not trying to antagonize, but I am just wondering. I am sure there is something or a series on youtube, but finding it mixed with all the junk out there would be quite difficult.
__________________
$0 of an NRA membership goes to legislative action or court battles. Not a dime. Only money contributed to the NRA-ILA or NRA-PVF. You could just donate to the Second Amendment Foundation
First Shotgun Thread First Rifle Thread First Pistol Thread
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old June 3, 2012, 10:13 PM   #19
Hansam
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2012
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 763
I voted no.

Poor gun handling (not properly clearing the handguns and also having them pointed at one each other when being handled) is something I personally don't tolerate.

Add that to an abysmal "explanation" on ballistics and also false information regarding the effects of what each bullet does at "the magic 21 ft. distance" makes actually distinguishing between calibers impossible. If what he said was true I'd only carry a pistol that could shoot the .22short.

Grips shown were antiquated and need to be improved upon. For novice shooters this is very important, what they see in a video is what they'll try to use. Simply subtitling that you changed the grip at the range isn't informative.

The "expert" jumped from gun to gun without actually explaining the benefits of each gun and caliber as well as the drawbacks. He basically railroaded the girl into the 1911 in .45acp. Personally I will ONLY carry a 1911 but that's not the gun for everyone. My wife is now also a 1911 lover but she started out with an LCP then moved on to a S&W MP 9 then a revolver in 38spl. before deciding to go with a 1911 but that was after months of actual shooting and experimenting - a total of just over 1500 rounds actually before she decided to go with a 1911.

My favorite local gun stores all provide better information in a very friendly and informed manner to anyone that asks. I've spent enough time in them to see it first hand. If your lgs isn't friendly and informative then you need to find another lgs.

I wouldn't show novices this video...
__________________
This is who we are, what we do.
Hansam is offline  
Old June 3, 2012, 10:56 PM   #20
myshoulderissore
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 12, 2010
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 447
Hansam just read most of my mind... I couldn't care less about the production quality, although that seemed like a first draft as opposed to what a final video of that type should be. The information was shoddy, I understand not wanting to overwhelm a new shooter with jargon, but better (less inaccurate) explanations of basic concepts can be used to explain caliber choice, bullet choice, handgun type, etc.

The nail in the coffin, for me, was the gun handling. When teaching a new shooter ANYTHING, I believe they should be exposed to only proper, safe, proven gun handling. Videos like this and action flicks could be used to critique gun handling, perhaps as a test of their awareness of what should and shouldn't be done.

I voted no.
myshoulderissore is offline  
Old June 3, 2012, 11:45 PM   #21
johnwilliamson062
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 6,759
If the video was re-shot what specific changes should be made?
Including the time in the video would be most helpful.

Quote:
Girl was acting dumb as a box of rocks
Pretty sure she was actually a new shooter. She really just doesn't know much about guns. I would hate it if some of my early cross counter exchanges at gun shops were documented. Like the time I wanted to buy a Walther G22 and they kept handing me a Glock 22. Worked out for me in the end as I would not have liked the Walther G22. Oh, and the time I wanted ammo for my GP100 and left Walmart with a box of 357 sig. That was a good one.

This wasn't scripted or planned as far as I know. Single take straight through, no revision of what was basically a legit gun shop visit. The explanations and comments in the video were just what occurred naturally.
__________________
$0 of an NRA membership goes to legislative action or court battles. Not a dime. Only money contributed to the NRA-ILA or NRA-PVF. You could just donate to the Second Amendment Foundation
First Shotgun Thread First Rifle Thread First Pistol Thread

Last edited by johnwilliamson062; June 4, 2012 at 12:20 AM.
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old June 4, 2012, 01:08 AM   #22
docpadds
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2009
Posts: 125
Fyi she was far from dumb and it was the first time she had ever been in the shop. The whole thing was not scripted, it was spur of the moment and no it was not perfect. The guns were all cleared before being used as they are constantly in the shop.

If it were longer, scripted and done by somebody more used to being on camera I guarantee it would be better. If there had been time it would have been put together better and probably had different things in it.

It certainly is not full on training material, for that the novice should take an actual NRA type class for the full detail level. For that it would be done on a camera that isn't just handheld and would be edited etc, I can see many things I would change.

And Expert is one of those words I have always hated, I am no expert in anything for sure, and could never pertain to be, I never stop learning.

But then this all got discussed elsewhere too but the original poster is on some sort of crusade with this video so will let him have his ball and run with it I guess.
__________________
07 Manufacturer and 02 SOT and 08 Importer.
NRA Certified Instructor Pistol/Rifle. NRA RSO.
Owner of GunEnvy. See our Facebook page for more.
docpadds is offline  
Old June 4, 2012, 01:19 AM   #23
docpadds
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2009
Posts: 125
Quote:
Out of interest: is the shop owner from the US? His accent sounds English, with hints of Aussie, but then all his syntax was in American English. Just curious.
Irish actually, but a long time in the UK before the US.
__________________
07 Manufacturer and 02 SOT and 08 Importer.
NRA Certified Instructor Pistol/Rifle. NRA RSO.
Owner of GunEnvy. See our Facebook page for more.
docpadds is offline  
Old June 4, 2012, 01:52 AM   #24
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,538
Quote:
Originally Posted by docpadds
...The whole thing was not scripted, it was spur of the moment and no it was not perfect. The guns were all cleared before being used as they are constantly in the shop....
In my view as an instructor, that is not sufficient and renders the video completely useless for teaching beginners. When beginners see things like that, they don't know any better and will believe it is acceptable behavior.

But it is not acceptable behavior. It is not acceptable behavior among the people I shoot with. It is not acceptable behavior among those I teach with. And it would not be acceptable behavior anywhere I've trained. Every time a gun is handled, its condition is verified, and every time a gun is handled the muzzle is not permitted to cover anything one would not be willing to destroy.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper

Last edited by Frank Ettin; June 4, 2012 at 11:03 AM. Reason: correct typo
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old June 4, 2012, 07:24 AM   #25
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 2,641
Quote:
Irish actually, but a long time in the UK before the US.
Ahh, I see!!

Well, please don't curse me for the "he sounds English" remark!!
__________________
You cannot wake someone who is pretending to sleep. Stop pretending. Wake up.
Doubt: ...it's the only thing I'm sure of...
-Marsupials: Nature's idea of Concealed-Carry-
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14411 seconds with 10 queries