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Old May 31, 2012, 11:20 PM   #26
Hawg
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In a picture of the real Hatfield's there's no C&B's present. There's Colt Peacemakers, S&W Schofields and Winchester Rifles. There's a pic of Devil Anse with a 93 or 97 Winchester pump. I clipped these from the vid.









http://youtu.be/CCwe61LzjgI
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Old June 1, 2012, 01:27 AM   #27
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quoting myself "rifles are utilitarian but pistols are made only for killing"

I guess that I should have been more explicit, handguns were not used for hunting, handguns were rarely used when there was a fox or other predator in the chickens, handguns are only used to kill people. I guess I was making the distinction between hunting and murder (something my kin had trouble with).

That's why I was amazed at the preponderance of pistols in the few photos of that era, I can only surmise that many of these pistols were take homes from service during the Civil War.

Note also there is the Kentucky vs. West Virginia border there was a great deal of rancor in this area before and after the Civil War.

Someone above also mentioned miners and private detectives, another Hatfield was in the middle of that dustup as well. That would be Sid Hatfield and the Matewan Massecre. He was related to the feuding Hatfield's, some sort of cousin.
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Old June 1, 2012, 07:37 AM   #28
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Hawg Haggen shared the image I wanted to comment on. They had modern cartridge guns and not smoke poles.
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Old June 1, 2012, 08:19 AM   #29
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You think Devil Anse was a little PO'd about that guy pointing a revolver at him?
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Old June 1, 2012, 09:25 AM   #30
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There are a lot of details that were embellished, altered or just flat wrong in the show, but I figure that it's not a documentary. They got the gist of the story right, I think. What I hope is that after seeing the show, folks will be encouraged to read up a little on it.
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Old June 1, 2012, 10:42 AM   #31
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Quote:
You think Devil Anse was a little PO'd about that guy pointing a revolver at him?
I very seriously doubt it. People back then weren't as anal about safety as they are now.
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Old June 1, 2012, 12:10 PM   #32
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Hawg Haggen's Hatfield photo's

Hatfield photo's commenting on: Looks like the logging and lumber milling business was more than successful for the Hatfield family. All posing with pretty up to date spendy weaponry. No doubt as weapons and there ammunition improved thru the feud years so did Hatfields. Is there a hidden lesson to be learned from those years? other than don't steal your neighbors livestock and then parade it back in front of him or make a quip in bad taste about one's family pet to a stern-looking fellow bigger in stature than yourself. It leads me to believe there wasn't any thought given to being Political Correct during that time in history for those who lived outside the boundaries of the privileged few. Yup again I was born 150 yrs. to late and missed the party when at a time in History. Men behaved like men with morals and little scruples. Women did what they had too in order to stay alive and thrive. Did C/B weapons go on being used way after the Civial War was over. I suppose so according to what some here have written. I'm sure they still served a purpose for many well into the 20th century.
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Old June 1, 2012, 12:30 PM   #33
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It leads me to believe there wasn't any thought given to being Political Correct during that time in history
Of course not. Political correctness didn't come about in the modern sense until the 70's.
More pics. http://www.wvculture.org/viewer.aspx?GalleryId=43
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Old June 1, 2012, 12:56 PM   #34
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hatfield's and McCoys

HAWG, you mentioned "Dances with Wolves" inconsistency regarding Henry rifle. I agree that when he shot that buffalo at God knows how many yards, it just dropped dead. A 214 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of about 1,000 fps isn't going to stop a charging buffalo. And remember "Lonesome Dove" when Robert Duvall flipped up the sight on his Henry and shot a guy that I expect was suppose to 200 or 300 yards away. Another great early gun movie! But again, Hollywood took some liberties.

Last edited by buckhorn; June 1, 2012 at 01:12 PM.
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Old June 1, 2012, 01:24 PM   #35
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I've heard of 200 and 216 grain bullets. All the images I can find are 200. This box sold at auction for 1,900

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Old June 1, 2012, 01:46 PM   #36
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hatfields and McCoys

I quarantee you I didn't I didn't buy it, or I would've known 200 gr, not 214.
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Old June 1, 2012, 01:55 PM   #37
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I'm not saying nobody made a 214. I just never saw mention of one that I can remember. The powder charge was 28 grains so that's 12 grains less than a 44-40 with a 200 grain bullet.
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Old June 1, 2012, 03:24 PM   #38
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Hey Buckhorn, stop it right now...you are messin' up one of my favorite Lonesome Dove scenes. For goodness sake, it "could" have happened.
Like, I "could" be young tall dark and handsome instead of...

But that shootin' the Buffalo with a Henry in "Dances..", that was just too much. Like I said, movies are supposed to make you feel suspended in time, not suspended in "stupid."
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Old June 1, 2012, 06:45 PM   #39
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Hawg Haggen

Quote:
H&H said: Of course not. Political correctness didn't come about in the modern sense until the 70's
I know better Sir. But I just wanted to do some fish'in to see just who was paying attention. You Sir are always on the Ball down there. "Hard to out slick'er you Hawg. But given another chance you can bet I'll give'er another try.~~~soon you "Ol Bushwhacker ._
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Old June 1, 2012, 07:25 PM   #40
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Well even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile. I'm not hard to outslick. Heck I do it to myself sometimes.
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Old June 2, 2012, 11:34 AM   #41
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hatfields and McCoys

OUTLAWJOSEY WALES I love that scene, too. It's one of my favorite cowboy scenes of all times. When Duvall says "By god I've had enough" and he flips the sight up on his Henry and points it up in the air {I don,t remember the angle, just up} and hits that guy, well that was great! And I'm sure sure there were guys back then proficent enough with thier Henrys to do that. But I don't really buy the Buffalo Scene in "Dances with Wolves".
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Old June 2, 2012, 12:03 PM   #42
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Henry Original Loads

Hawg, I did some looking around and the original load was{you're right] a 216 grain bullet over 25 grains of black powder. BUT, there were several variants made, And Turkey also purchased a lot of Henry's and Colt S/A chamber to fire the Henry round. MAN, I wonder if any of those ever showed up. If a box of shells goes for $1500, imagine if one of those weapons showed up, they probably did and are in some collection somewhere.
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Old June 2, 2012, 02:53 PM   #43
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Excuse me, it was $1900 for a box of Henry's
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Old June 3, 2012, 01:04 AM   #44
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[QUOTE][I guess I was making the distinction between hunting and murder (/QUOTE]

If it's to be murder, then a smart man will choose a long gun..... A handgun is to have handy, for unforeseen self defense- murder being by very nature so very not, "unforeseen" ..... if you know ahead of time, then you will choose a better tool (a rifle), and bring all your freinds with rifles .....

.....if all you have is kin, then they will show up as best they can, with what they have.....

Seen outside a decidedly Southern Gun Store:

"Guns for Sale.

Some Good,

Some not so Good,

some don't even work.

All of 'em better'n Runnin'."
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Old June 5, 2012, 10:46 AM   #45
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Well, I'm still of the opinion that muzzleloaders were pretty much put away for good by the end of WWII. At least, I never saw one and I spent more than a little time back in the sticks. The county even used 4x4 school buses where I lived. But I will grant that it is possible, just unlikely.

I also take issue with the level of poverty in the hills but you first have to understand there were two classes of people living back in the coal fields of southwestern West Virginia, although class is not really an appropriate word.

One group consisted of the descendents of the original settlers and mostly had English and Scotch-Irish names. My stepmother was named McKinney, the local general store and post office was run by a family named Mills. There were also Cooks (originally German Koch), Grahams, Sturgills, and Poe. Don't remember other names. Some were still managing to farm some, others also worked in the mines.

The other group were immigrants and their descendents, all from Italy in that part of the country. They didn't live out in the hills. They lived in "coal camps" or in town. Those who had been born in Italy were all older than my father and I suspect they all came during the 1920s.

Some of the small towns were real boom towns in the 1940s and 1950s. They were hardly all that well off but poverty stricken is probably an exaggeration. Hard times came later as the mines worked out and with the increasing use of machines and strip mining. The ones that stayed became worse off but there was an exodus of people out of the coal fields and I was one of them.

I noticed a shoulder holster in one of the photos and the pistol being held by a boy in the second photo looks like a, what, Forehand and Wadsworth? I'll look that up. (Maybe a Merwin Hulbert?)

The feuding and fighting, including the Matewan fight, took place further west from places I lived. Unexplored territory, it says on my maps. But in Mercer County, to be sure, there was a lot of hard feelings and some continued struggles after the Civil War. It was a border county in a border state and that's the way things usually turn out. There was a struggle over where the county courthouse was going to be. A midnight expedition settled the matter for good. One town in one of the next counties over even changed its name to "Union," just to make sure everyone was clear on their stand.
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Old June 5, 2012, 11:00 AM   #46
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Thanks for the history and personal stories.

Although most people in the country, who are not of Southern heritage, don't know it and don't care, but the "hard feeling" about the war continued throughout the 20th century. My mother is 82, still talks about how her family lost their property in Georgia during "the war" and is still not happy about it. And she's not talking Vietnam war here either. The feelings were very strong in the early 20th century, as the fathers who fought that war began to pass away. It's when most of the monuments were put up.

So the late 19th century "feelings' could certainly have ended in bloodshed when the actual people who fought went back home.
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Old June 5, 2012, 11:23 AM   #47
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Gold was discovered in Idaho just before the Civil War and the territory was admitted as the Civil War began. During the gold rush era, from around 1862 until about 1870, there were probably equal numbers of Southerners and Northerners. The impact of the South in my part of the state is pretty clear - towns like Atlanta and Dixie, the Secesh (as in secession) River and such.

Even after the war, right up until statehood in 1890, there were hard feelings. The territorial officials were appointed by the Republican administration in Washington, DC, but the Democrats maintained a pretty good hold on elected offices due to the support of the Southern contingent. It led to a virtual gridlock in the courts and more than a few "bushwhackings". Of course, there was the general chaos that came with gold fever, but it's pretty safe to say that there was a great deal of pride reserved by both sides of the Mason-Dixon line and plenty of fellows willing to back up that pride with a revolver.

I doubt that the Boise Basin in Idaho is unique in that aspect - I'm sure that other areas in the West had their own North-South "interactions" as well.

Interestingly, my family managed to combine both sides. My great grandfather was a died in the wool abolitionist, Protestant, Catholic-hating Northerner, while my great grandmother came from a line of devout Catholic, slave-renting Southerners. Thankfully for all, he worshiped the very ground she walked on and love overcame all, although I believe that Lent, Easter and Christmas caused a little prickliness with the family.

They were married by the justice of the peace. A fitting compromise, I think.
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Old June 5, 2012, 01:43 PM   #48
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hatfieldds, ect.

I grew up in Ft. Thomas, Ky. My Mom had a 1961 red Ford convertible. Kentucky only required rear plates [still do ] And her front plate was a Southern soldier with crossed revolvers and said " FORGET HELL" I'm sure some of you guys have seen that plate over the years. But that demonstrates how people even in the '60's still thought about the war between the states. Our neighbor in Kentucky always flew the "Stars 'n' Bars" under his American flag on Veterens Day and the Fourth of July.
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Old June 5, 2012, 01:59 PM   #49
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Try to remember that guns are expensive tools, and in hard times, most folk have to make hard decisions about what to spend their money on- a new gun is very nice to have, but would get much less use than a new horse or plow.
Of corse that only applied to lawful folk. You got to remember that law enforcement was almost non-existant. So was comunication. A new gun I suspect got quite a few new horses and gear for folks (especially when in a blood feud) if you shot the lonely rider no one was the wiser. I also suspect that in areas where lonely riders went missing folks were willing to spend the extra dough on a gun (especially when in a blood feud).
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Old June 5, 2012, 02:46 PM   #50
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Goodness, don't exaggerate the lawlessness of people back in the hills. Not everyone was or was related to either side of that fight. And anyway, it wasn't really "unexplored territory."
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