not a good hd shell choice? - Page 2

UnbearablePanda · June 5, 2012, 12:39 PM

Why not just multi choice your ammunition like all my friends do? He switches out with
1st. Bird
2nd. 04 buck
3rd. 00 buck
4th. slug
5th. slug

That way if the bird doesn't get em', you got buck in your channel, if you dont want to use bird because your mad. Just deload the first shell and get the 2nd. Or you could be just rabbit bashing mad and use a slug. Either way it gives you a chance to decide they're fate.

UnbearablePanda · June 5, 2012, 01:22 PM

Oh yea hawg, Your story is impossible to be correct. Getting shot in the stomach with any 9mm+ will kill in 15 minutes. The HCL from the stomach eats the other organs away and starts leaking into the fat. Burning into the bladder and liver causing failure and septic. Getting shot in the stomach is a fatal wound from a shotgun, nevertheless the amount of pellets. Your talking about less than 5 minutes for a ambu, very highly unlikely to happen. Especially since I have a police station/fire station nearby it would take 2 minutes to get here and to get to a hospital with almost no medical supplies inside to prevent HCL. Leaking into the organs, your myth has been busted.

**Mike Irwin** · June 5, 2012, 03:16 PM

"Getting shot in the stomach with any 9mm+ will kill in 15 minutes."

Uhm....

OK, not sure where you came up with that, but I guess someone forgot to tell my neighbor when I was growing up.

He fought in the Pacific in World War II and took a chunk of Japanese shell in the stomach.

He survived several hours without anything other than very basic medical care.

He ended up losing a good portion of his stomach and had a raging peritoneal infection to deal with, but he's living proof (well, he was, he died some years ago) that being shot in the stomach isn't a 15-minute death sentence.

Medical statistics from the Civil War indicate that roughly 11% of soldiers who were hit in the stomach survived (much better than abdominal wounds, which apparently were 98% fatal).

TheKlawMan · June 5, 2012, 05:19 PM

Who is talking about a 9mm? Hawg was talking about a load of #6 which is pretty fine bird shot. With any shot energy is dispersed amongst the pellets and the result is less penetration if I understand what others like oneounce are saying. With a 9 mm that energy is moving one single pellet.

TheKlawMan · June 5, 2012, 05:29 PM

Mike, I don't know that it is reasonable to compare survival rates to Civil War rates. Medical care has improved a lot since then when I have heard the soliders were more terrified of the hospital than anything else.

**Mike Irwin** · June 5, 2012, 08:10 PM

I used the Civil War survival rates for two reasons. First they were the ones i could lay my hands on quickly with a google.

Second, i think its e en more impressive that 11% of the men hit in the stomach survived the rather primitive medical care o f tjat time.

That means one thing to me - that if stomach wounds were survivable then they are even more survivable now.

TheKlawMan · June 6, 2012, 03:15 AM

All I know about myth busting Unbearable Panda is that as early as Dunkirk the survivability rate for abdominal injuries was 60% and recently is well over 80%.

UnbearablePanda · June 6, 2012, 05:28 AM

Huge difference in training for killing. Vs a home defense action. A normal person who has not trained in the military has a different mind set. Same with the man who killed 40 people with a shovel with a fatal wound and survived. Most of that is possible, yet i'm trying to point out the fact that with that many shots in a "small room" point blank. Your going to bleed, he stated "friend" not a military personell. Meaning that he probably went into shock. I highly doubt that within at least 40 minutes with that wound he could have survived. Let alone get close enough and fight him off than take the shotgun and beat him with it. If a person is going to put a gun to you and shoot. He probably is going to try and kill you with it. That proving that his story is inconceivable. That 9mm was just off some other forum anyway. It shows in the link that a #6 bird will make a 6inch cavity in the body at 10 feet. http://le.atk.com/pdf/Shotshell_Data_Book.pdf Look at the ballistics of a 10 feet distance. His "small room" common is probably going to be around 5-8 Let alone 10. You could try it out and test what he said. Get shot in the chest at 8 feet with #6 bird and see if you can run forward beat the crap out of a guy who probably woulda beat the hell out of you. Than call an ambulance and wait for help with a 6inch cavity.

rbernie · June 6, 2012, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Same with the man who killed 40 people with a shovel with a fatal wound and survived

This makes no sense. If he survived, it couldn't have been a fatal wound. Just sayin'....

Quote:

That proving that his story is inconceivable.

No, it's not inconceivable. You clearly consider it unlikely, but that does not make it impossible. It just means that you ain't buying it. And being skeptical doesn't mean (at least in my neck of the woods) that you get to call somebody else a liar - it only means that you are skeptical.

Quote:

It shows in the link that a #6 bird will make a 6inch cavity in the body at 10 feet

Maybe I'm missing something, because that link is showing buckshot and slug tests and not birdshot. Having said that, I have no doubt that #6 birdshot will make a six inch cavity in a bucket of jello at contact distance. I'll keep that in mind if I'm ever being attacked by my kid's dessert or a giant amoeba.

Truth be told, #6 birdshot does a pretty good job of penetrating 3"-4" into the bodies of small upland game birds with rib cages so lighly constructed that you can dang near crush them in your hand. It's a little light for rabbit or squirrel unless ranges are pretty short, it's OK for headshots/neck shots on turkey, but it's way too light for game as large as a duck or similar waterfowl due to its inability to give adequate penetration even at close range.

That's a clue that it's probably not suited for critters that are an order of magnitude larger than a duck (unless they resemble a bowl of jello).

If I'm being attacked by a human or any critter bigger than a pheasant, then I'll likely choose to use a shotshell load that has been demonstrated in real life to actually penetrate the ribcage and other intermediate barriers to get to the jello inside of said attacker.

YMMV.

**Frank Ettin** · June 6, 2012, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnbearablePanda

...Getting shot in the stomach with any 9mm+ will kill in 15 minutes. The HCL from the stomach eats the other organs away and starts leaking into the fat. Burning into the bladder and liver causing failure and septic. Getting shot in the stomach is a fatal wound from a shotgun, nevertheless the amount of pellets....

Do you have any actual evidence to support any of that?

LSnSC · June 6, 2012, 07:02 PM

Ive never shot a shotgun into ballistics gelatin but I have shot a few hogs between the blinkers with copper plated 5"s while turkey hunting. It killed the snot out of them. I shot one at about 25 feet while he was looking at that camo blob leaning up agains a big swamp chestnut trying to figure out what it was. It took off the top of his head. None of the were high on PCP but I dont think it would have mattered.

I have no doubbt that a load of #4's or larger will kill you at across the room distances without blowing through the walls of you house and killing the neighbors. Anyone who has hunted with a shotgun, has little doubt the effect of small pellets up close. Ive seen a load of number 6's turn a duck inside out at a few yards. While he doent have the mass of a human, I know being hit up close would take the fight out of you, and cause devastating wounds.

FWIW several years ago there was an episode of cops where a homeowner had shot and killed two armed intruders. One was a big fella lying there dead as fried chicken, the other was face down outside. There as a pattern on the wall that was clearly small pellets.

TheKlawMan · June 6, 2012, 07:41 PM

LSnSC

I have read enough of your posts to see that you know a bit of what you speak, unlike some of us (like myself) know nothings. A lot of time it is confuses me when people talk about shot sizes, since some overlap. Meaning #4 Buck shot is nothing like #4 Bird Shot. I beleive you were talking about heading a pig with #5 Copper Plated Bird Shot. Since I bought a lot of copper plated home defense amo (copper plated BB's) I did some reading and per Chuck Hawks, I think it was him, copper plated shot pentrates about as well as the next largest pellet.

BTW my primary HD load is Remington Ultimate Home Defense 12 gauge with copper plated BB's. Remington also offers the same stuff with a mixture of #2 and #4 buck shot. As far as I know no one has done a ballistic gellatin test on the BB load so far.

There I go mispeaking again. I said they are copper plated BB's. I don't know where I got that from. The box says they are loaded with heavy density , Tunsten -Bronze-Iron Pellets.

LSnSC · June 7, 2012, 11:06 AM

Im talking about #4 and #5 shot.
Those Remington bb loads hit hard as well. Im confident Remington did their homework on those.

zippy13 · June 7, 2012, 11:36 AM

Quote:

The box says they are loaded with heavy density, Tunsten-Bronze-Iron Pellets.

Non-toxic for water fowl (or California's condor country)?

LSnSC · June 7, 2012, 12:10 PM

They are sold as home defense ammo. Denser than lead for better penetration. Repackaged hevi shot waterfowl loads.

zippy13 · June 7, 2012, 12:19 PM

Thanks for the heads-up, LSnSC, what will they think up next?

LSnSC · June 7, 2012, 02:05 PM

Tactical s x s's and o/u's ...

zippy13 · June 7, 2012, 02:25 PM

Don't laugh,
Stoeger already has the Double Defense and the Double Defense O/U:

Tony615 · June 7, 2012, 03:31 PM

I used to keep my shotgun loaded with low recoil 00 buckshot. I still have some Federal LE 132 00 and 8 pellet 133 00 shells. Once I was able to obtain Federal LE 15 pellet #1 buckshot with flitecontrol I'm using that from now on. It is difficult to find these shells now but hopefully it will become easier in the future.

WV_gunner · June 7, 2012, 07:06 PM

I have a Stoegor Condor with an elastic shell holder on the stock filled with 5 Federal 000. Its my home defense gun and a hunting gun at times, very seldom. I also keep a box of 3 inch #4 turkey loads with the gun just in case.

rbernie · June 7, 2012, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Ive never shot a shotgun into ballistics gelatin but I have shot a few hogs between the blinkers with copper plated 5"s while turkey hunting. It killed the snot out of them. I shot one at about 25 feet while he was looking at that camo blob leaning up agains a big swamp chestnut trying to figure out what it was. It took off the top of his head.

Yet at the same time, I've had #6 field loads fail to put down a sixty pound coyote at fifteen yards and fail to incapacitate a small bobcat hung up on a high fence when shot at dang near contact distance.

Quote:

I have no doubbt that a load of #4's or larger will kill you at across the room distances without blowing through the walls of you house and killing the neighbors. Anyone who has hunted with a shotgun, has little doubt the effect of small pellets up close. Ive seen a load of number 6's turn a duck inside out at a few yards. While he doent have the mass of a human, I know being hit up close would take the fight out of you, and cause devastating wounds.

I have no doubt that a single 7.62x39 round from an AK can drop an aircraft if it impacts at just the right spot, and yet most folk likely won't want rely upon that degree of luck if their self preservation is on the line.

The bottom line for me is that I know of folk shot center mass at contact distance with 7 1/2 birdshot who suffered grotesque but not closely life threatening nor debilitating injuries. Relying upon birdshot to penetrate deeply enough into a human to cause rapid incapacitation is a heckuva crapshoot. Ya pays yer money and ya take yer chances.....

TheKlawMan · June 7, 2012, 08:49 PM

Yep on the repackaged Remington heavy water fowl loads. Zippy mentioned that a ways back and the pellets look to be the same. Check Hawks compares the two and concludes with a

Quote:

Best guess for HD Ultimate HD alloy shot penetration is somewhere between lead birdshot and lead buckshot.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/remington_...shotshells.htm

He basically can't see paying $3 a round for it. I got mine on sale in 10 round boxes for $14.95. (Big Jim, That is the same as $1.49 a round)

One thing I like about it is that if ever needed I want the jury to know that I was using the ultimate home defense round out of concern for my neighbors.

Sheriff Gotcha · June 8, 2012, 12:35 PM

Okay I did not search this or even read every post in this thread, but I didn't want to create a new thread on something that may have been stated before hand on a regular basis.

My question is: Is there a HD shell that is frowned upon as far as factory ammo is concerned? For example, Birdshot vs Buckshot, would one or the other make you an easier target for an attorney to make you look more guilty in a self defense in the home situation?

I know nothing about shotguns really and little about guns in general for that matter. I was curious about this though.

I know Buckshot will penetrate more than Birdshot, but will that make you look as though you had bad intentions. Like with handguns your better off if you defend yourself with a standard factory trigger over a custom lighter trigger. Does the same apply for shotgun loads used for HD?

Sorry if you think this is highjacking. I can make a new thread if the OP or Mods would like. Or if someone will provide a link to a previous thread based on this I'd like to see that.

RoscoeC · June 8, 2012, 04:37 PM

Quote:

I never tire of this subject

I, on the other hand do. My HD shotguns (I have 2 in different locations) are loaded with 00 buckshot. I am a big boy. I understand the possibilities of collateral damage. I also understand the consequences of failing to achieve the desired results if I should have to pull the trigger.

This is me. I don't really give a flying patoot what you do. If you are willing to gamble your life and the lives of your family on bird shot then be my guest. Throw a rock at them if you like. Express bad intent. Fart in their general direction. Whatever you think will work for you is fine by me.

00 buckshot is what I think will work for me.

TheKlawMan · June 8, 2012, 08:33 PM

Sherrif Gotcha; Keep in mind two things. You need something that will do the job, which is to stop the threat and not necessarily to kill. The other is post shooting considerations. If it didn't do the job you may have no post shooting at all.

That is one reason I listened to a wise Zippy bird tweet about Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense ammunition. (The HD stands for High Density and not Home Defense.) You might be able to purchase Remington High Density Waterfowl ammo for slightly less and it is essentially the same, but I like the fact that I am using "Ultimate Home Defense" ammunition for home defense.

June 5, 2012, 03:16 PM	#28
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 33,141	"Getting shot in the stomach with any 9mm+ will kill in 15 minutes." Uhm.... OK, not sure where you came up with that, but I guess someone forgot to tell my neighbor when I was growing up. He fought in the Pacific in World War II and took a chunk of Japanese shell in the stomach. He survived several hours without anything other than very basic medical care. He ended up losing a good portion of his stomach and had a raging peritoneal infection to deal with, but he's living proof (well, he was, he died some years ago) that being shot in the stomach isn't a 15-minute death sentence. Medical statistics from the Civil War indicate that roughly 11% of soldiers who were hit in the stomach survived (much better than abdominal wounds, which apparently were 98% fatal). __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

June 5, 2012, 05:19 PM	#29
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,150	Who is talking about a 9mm? Hawg was talking about a load of #6 which is pretty fine bird shot. With any shot energy is dispersed amongst the pellets and the result is less penetration if I understand what others like oneounce are saying. With a 9 mm that energy is moving one single pellet. Last edited by TheKlawMan; June 5, 2012 at 05:26 PM.

June 5, 2012, 08:10 PM	#31
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 33,141	I used the Civil War survival rates for two reasons. First they were the ones i could lay my hands on quickly with a google. Second, i think its e en more impressive that 11% of the men hit in the stomach survived the rather primitive medical care o f tjat time. That means one thing to me - that if stomach wounds were survivable then they are even more survivable now. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

June 6, 2012, 07:41 PM	#37
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,150	LSnSC I have read enough of your posts to see that you know a bit of what you speak, unlike some of us (like myself) know nothings. A lot of time it is confuses me when people talk about shot sizes, since some overlap. Meaning #4 Buck shot is nothing like #4 Bird Shot. I beleive you were talking about heading a pig with #5 Copper Plated Bird Shot. Since I bought a lot of copper plated home defense amo (copper plated BB's) I did some reading and per Chuck Hawks, I think it was him, copper plated shot pentrates about as well as the next largest pellet. BTW my primary HD load is Remington Ultimate Home Defense 12 gauge with copper plated BB's. Remington also offers the same stuff with a mixture of #2 and #4 buck shot. As far as I know no one has done a ballistic gellatin test on the BB load so far. There I go mispeaking again. I said they are copper plated BB's. I don't know where I got that from. The box says they are loaded with heavy density , Tunsten -Bronze-Iron Pellets. Last edited by TheKlawMan; June 6, 2012 at 07:57 PM.

June 5, 2012, 12:39 PM	#26
UnbearablePanda Junior member Join Date: April 23, 2012 Posts: 113	Why not just multi choice your ammunition like all my friends do? He switches out with 1st. Bird 2nd. 04 buck 3rd. 00 buck 4th. slug 5th. slug That way if the bird doesn't get em', you got buck in your channel, if you dont want to use bird because your mad. Just deload the first shell and get the 2nd. Or you could be just rabbit bashing mad and use a slug. Either way it gives you a chance to decide they're fate.

June 5, 2012, 01:22 PM	#27
UnbearablePanda Junior member Join Date: April 23, 2012 Posts: 113	Oh yea hawg, Your story is impossible to be correct. Getting shot in the stomach with any 9mm+ will kill in 15 minutes. The HCL from the stomach eats the other organs away and starts leaking into the fat. Burning into the bladder and liver causing failure and septic. Getting shot in the stomach is a fatal wound from a shotgun, nevertheless the amount of pellets. Your talking about less than 5 minutes for a ambu, very highly unlikely to happen. Especially since I have a police station/fire station nearby it would take 2 minutes to get here and to get to a hospital with almost no medical supplies inside to prevent HCL. Leaking into the organs, your myth has been busted.

June 5, 2012, 05:29 PM	#30
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,150	Mike, I don't know that it is reasonable to compare survival rates to Civil War rates. Medical care has improved a lot since then when I have heard the soliders were more terrified of the hospital than anything else.

June 6, 2012, 03:15 AM	#32
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,150	All I know about myth busting Unbearable Panda is that as early as Dunkirk the survivability rate for abdominal injuries was 60% and recently is well over 80%.

June 6, 2012, 05:28 AM	#33
UnbearablePanda Junior member Join Date: April 23, 2012 Posts: 113	Huge difference in training for killing. Vs a home defense action. A normal person who has not trained in the military has a different mind set. Same with the man who killed 40 people with a shovel with a fatal wound and survived. Most of that is possible, yet i'm trying to point out the fact that with that many shots in a "small room" point blank. Your going to bleed, he stated "friend" not a military personell. Meaning that he probably went into shock. I highly doubt that within at least 40 minutes with that wound he could have survived. Let alone get close enough and fight him off than take the shotgun and beat him with it. If a person is going to put a gun to you and shoot. He probably is going to try and kill you with it. That proving that his story is inconceivable. That 9mm was just off some other forum anyway. It shows in the link that a #6 bird will make a 6inch cavity in the body at 10 feet. http://le.atk.com/pdf/Shotshell_Data_Book.pdf Look at the ballistics of a 10 feet distance. His "small room" common is probably going to be around 5-8 Let alone 10. You could try it out and test what he said. Get shot in the chest at 8 feet with #6 bird and see if you can run forward beat the crap out of a guy who probably woulda beat the hell out of you. Than call an ambulance and wait for help with a 6inch cavity.

June 6, 2012, 07:02 PM	#36
LSnSC Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2010 Posts: 501	Ive never shot a shotgun into ballistics gelatin but I have shot a few hogs between the blinkers with copper plated 5"s while turkey hunting. It killed the snot out of them. I shot one at about 25 feet while he was looking at that camo blob leaning up agains a big swamp chestnut trying to figure out what it was. It took off the top of his head. None of the were high on PCP but I dont think it would have mattered. I have no doubbt that a load of #4's or larger will kill you at across the room distances without blowing through the walls of you house and killing the neighbors. Anyone who has hunted with a shotgun, has little doubt the effect of small pellets up close. Ive seen a load of number 6's turn a duck inside out at a few yards. While he doent have the mass of a human, I know being hit up close would take the fight out of you, and cause devastating wounds. FWIW several years ago there was an episode of cops where a homeowner had shot and killed two armed intruders. One was a big fella lying there dead as fried chicken, the other was face down outside. There as a pattern on the wall that was clearly small pellets.

June 7, 2012, 11:06 AM	#38
LSnSC Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2010 Posts: 501	Im talking about #4 and #5 shot. Those Remington bb loads hit hard as well. Im confident Remington did their homework on those.

June 7, 2012, 12:10 PM	#40
LSnSC Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2010 Posts: 501	They are sold as home defense ammo. Denser than lead for better penetration. Repackaged hevi shot waterfowl loads.

June 7, 2012, 12:19 PM	#41
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,281	Thanks for the heads-up, LSnSC, what will they think up next?

June 7, 2012, 02:05 PM	#42
LSnSC Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2010 Posts: 501	Tactical s x s's and o/u's ...

June 7, 2012, 02:25 PM	#43
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,281	Don't laugh, Stoeger already has the Double Defense and the Double Defense O/U:

June 7, 2012, 03:31 PM	#44
Tony615 Member Join Date: April 25, 2012 Posts: 35	I used to keep my shotgun loaded with low recoil 00 buckshot. I still have some Federal LE 132 00 and 8 pellet 133 00 shells. Once I was able to obtain Federal LE 15 pellet #1 buckshot with flitecontrol I'm using that from now on. It is difficult to find these shells now but hopefully it will become easier in the future.

June 7, 2012, 07:06 PM	#45
WV_gunner Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2011 Location: WV Posts: 444	I have a Stoegor Condor with an elastic shell holder on the stock filled with 5 Federal 000. Its my home defense gun and a hunting gun at times, very seldom. I also keep a box of 3 inch #4 turkey loads with the gun just in case.

June 8, 2012, 12:35 PM	#48
Sheriff Gotcha Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2012 Location: The Keystone State Posts: 188	Okay I did not search this or even read every post in this thread, but I didn't want to create a new thread on something that may have been stated before hand on a regular basis. My question is: Is there a HD shell that is frowned upon as far as factory ammo is concerned? For example, Birdshot vs Buckshot, would one or the other make you an easier target for an attorney to make you look more guilty in a self defense in the home situation? I know nothing about shotguns really and little about guns in general for that matter. I was curious about this though. I know Buckshot will penetrate more than Birdshot, but will that make you look as though you had bad intentions. Like with handguns your better off if you defend yourself with a standard factory trigger over a custom lighter trigger. Does the same apply for shotgun loads used for HD? Sorry if you think this is highjacking. I can make a new thread if the OP or Mods would like. Or if someone will provide a link to a previous thread based on this I'd like to see that.

June 8, 2012, 08:33 PM	#50
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,150	Sherrif Gotcha; Keep in mind two things. You need something that will do the job, which is to stop the threat and not necessarily to kill. The other is post shooting considerations. If it didn't do the job you may have no post shooting at all. That is one reason I listened to a wise Zippy bird tweet about Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense ammunition. (The HD stands for High Density and not Home Defense.) You might be able to purchase Remington High Density Waterfowl ammo for slightly less and it is essentially the same, but I like the fact that I am using "Ultimate Home Defense" ammunition for home defense.