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Old May 29, 2012, 06:39 PM   #1
landlord
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not a good hd shell choice?

I was talkin about gettin more lil buckshot today and my wife asked why I needed more shells sense I just bought some bulk game shells. that got me thinkin why wouldnt that work? might be dumb but just a thought for the day.
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Old May 29, 2012, 07:13 PM   #2
Willie Lowman
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You say more buckshot. Do you mean you already have some?

Game shells or bird shot don't penetrate as well as buckshot and are not reliable defensive loads because of that.
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Old May 29, 2012, 07:14 PM   #3
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I never tire of this subject

This has been hashed out before, but here is my spin on it, again. First I believe the standard full throttle load of 00 buck (9 .33 pellets @ 1325 FPS) to be plenty of medicine at home defense ranges.

However, I being a perfectionist and a gun nerd, good enough is not the same as better or best.

My choice for close range HD loadings in a 12 gauge shot gun is Winchester #1 buck.

#1 Buck at .30 diameter is about as small as you can go and still get reliably deep penetration to ensure that vital, blood bearing organs are reached.

The cumulative pay load of a 16 pellet #1 buck load is 648 grains vs. 484.2 grains of 9 pellets 00.

The combined muzzle energy of #1 buck (16/ 40.5 gr. pellets at 1250fps) is 2260 ft lbs. VS 1898 ft lbs for 00 buck (9/ 54 gr. pellets at 1325 fps).

The cumulative surface area (Potential wound channel) for #1 buck (16/ .30 pellets) is 1.133 sq inches vs. .771 sq inches for 00 buck.

Recoil between the two different loadings is comparable.

My choice is #1 buck because it will create more deep wounds and produce a larger overall wound channel, increasing the potential incapacitation ability of this loading over the standard 00 loading.


http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
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Old May 29, 2012, 07:17 PM   #4
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I keep my 870 loaded with the dixie tri-ball 3 inch rounds. 3 60caliber balls are very impressive on black bear, I am sure they would work fine on a BG... over penetration may be an issue

I tried the Winchester PDX1-12 but the buck shot did not pattern well in my gun.

I think any thing from #1buck through 000 buck would work well.
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Old May 29, 2012, 07:31 PM   #5
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Have you seen what bird shot will do up close to anything. It want start speading till about 25-30 feet. It will work for home defence. You shoot a person inside your house with it wadding and all will go through them. I my self have double 00 buck shot in my shot gun. thats cause Im a red neck
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Old May 29, 2012, 08:15 PM   #6
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I hunt coyotes qith a full choke and #4buck. So I load for HD with #4 in an IC barrel.
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Old May 29, 2012, 08:25 PM   #7
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The combined muzzle energy of #1 buck (16/ 40.5 gr. pellets at 1250fps) is 2260 ft lbs. VS 1898 ft lbs for 00 buck (9/ 54 gr. pellets at 1325 fps).
The energy is NOT 2260, it is the energy of each pellet and each pellet only - if you want massive ft lbs, use slugs
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Old May 30, 2012, 06:14 AM   #8
Archer 9505
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The energy is NOT 2260, it is the energy of each pellet and each pellet only
You're right; 141 ft. lbs 16 times vs. 210 ft. lb. 9 times would be a more accurate description. I was trying to make a comparison between the two loads. Cumulative projectile weight, number of potential wound channels and the cumulative size of the potential wound channel are the more relevant comparisons. My point was that by several measurable and comparable factors, #1 buck is more potentially damaging than standard 00 Buck. That being said, anything above #1 buck to include slugs is going to be plenty. I disagree adamantly with the selection of bird shot as a defensive ammo choice. Bird shot just doesn't have the penetration. If the assailant is standing erect and facing , arms a kimbo like a b27 target, a load of bird shot would be fine. What if the assailant is dressed in a heavy winter coat, has arms out in front as pointing a weapon and is partially concealed from kneeling behind a piece of furniture. I want a SD load that will penetrate furniture, clothing, muscle, fat and bone to reach vital organs. Heavy buck shot and slugs will do that. Bird shot cannot be relied upon to do it.
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Last edited by Archer 9505; May 30, 2012 at 06:36 AM.
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Old May 30, 2012, 08:48 AM   #9
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Have you seen what bird shot will do up close to anything. It want start speading till about 25-30 feet. It will work for home defence. You shoot a person inside your house with it wadding and all will go through them. I my self have double 00 buck shot in my shot gun. thats cause Im a red neck
Yes, I've seen what it will do and I'm not impressed. If you can be guaranteed you will be shooting naked guys from contact distances then maybe. An intruder wearing heavy winter clothing may slow birdshot enough to prevent it from doing any more than penetraing the skin. Often many if not most of the shot will not even completely penetrate a leather jacket. And you may have to take a shot at ranges greater than 10-15'.

There is absolutely no reason to choose birdshot unless it is all you happen to have at the moment. There is no downside to just using the proper ammo in the 1st place.
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Old May 30, 2012, 09:17 AM   #10
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TNOutdoors9 from Youtube just did a video on using game loads for home defense. Here are the results:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIfil...eature=g-all-u

Personally, I'd rather load-up with something like these Winchester PDX-1 Personal Defense shot shells.
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Old May 30, 2012, 10:14 AM   #11
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Bird shot just doesn't have the penetration.
To me, it depends on the definition of "birdshot" - it you are talking about a skeet load of #9, I agree; however, if you are talking about some of the larger non-tox stuff, or even the old #2 lead goose shot, I believe that might have different consequences
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Old May 30, 2012, 10:22 AM   #12
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Pretty hard to argue that good buckshot isn't more deadly than birdshot but very few people are going to take a chest full of a turkey or goose load at 20-30 feet and keep fighting.
Some? Yes, some will. How many? Who knows? Somebody, somewhere took a load of #1 at 20 feet and kept fighting.
Might your odds be better with #1? Yeah, they might, but your odds with a 12ga loaded with just about anything are pretty darn good.
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Old May 30, 2012, 10:57 AM   #13
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Quote:
The cumulative pay load of a 16 pellet #1 buck load is 648 grains vs. 484.2 grains of 9 pellets 00.

The combined muzzle energy of #1 buck (16/ 40.5 gr. pellets at 1250fps) is 2260 ft lbs. VS 1898 ft lbs for 00 buck (9/ 54 gr. pellets at 1325 fps).

The cumulative surface area (Potential wound channel) for #1 buck (16/ .30 pellets) is 1.133 sq inches vs. .771 sq inches for 00 buck.

Recoil between the two different loadings is comparable.
The two statements in bold are incongruous - you cannot move more mass to a fixed velocity without increasing the recoil.

TANSTAAFL.

Quote:
Have you seen what bird shot will do up close to anything. It want start speading till about 25-30 feet. It will work for home defence. You shoot a person inside your house with it wadding and all will go through them.
There are many instances of this simply not being reliably true. I know of folk that were shot at contact distance with #7 1/2 skeet loads and the loads failed to penetrate adequately to cause disabling and/or fatal wounds. The inference was/is that the shot column did not act as a monolithic whole.

From my readings and experiences, bird shot will not reliably penetrate the ribcage nor the skull of most folk.
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Last edited by rbernie; May 30, 2012 at 02:27 PM.
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Old May 30, 2012, 12:21 PM   #14
Archer 9505
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Quote:
The two statements in bold are incongruous - you cannot move more mass to a fixed velocity without increasing the recoil.
Correct. Comparable, dose not mean the same.

40.41 Ft. Lbs of recoil force from #1 buck (in an 8 pound gun)
28 Ft. Lbs in a 9 pellet 00 load.

Yes, recoil increases when you switch to #1 over 00. However the recoil is still comparable in the sense that there is not a major increase in recoil.

In contrast recoil goes up to 58+ ft. lbs in a 3 inch 00 load.

Subjective I know but in my thinking an increase of of around 12 ft lbs (00 to #1) is comparable. An increase of 30 ft. lbs (2 3/4 to 3in ) and now we are talking two very different categories of recoil.
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Old May 30, 2012, 12:56 PM   #15
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Not to quibble, but I consider an approximate thirty percent increase in recoil to be outside the realm of comparable.

All told, I'm more partial to the low-recoil 8 pellet 00 loads than anything else - they provide better second-shot performance, are generally designed to provide lower muzzle flash, and (especially the Federal loadings) provide excellent patterns in all shotguns that I own.
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Old May 30, 2012, 05:24 PM   #16
landlord
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I really did not figure on the detailed responses. I will just stick with my 2" buckshot then. The wife will just have to understand that HD shells are not cheap.
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Old May 30, 2012, 07:28 PM   #17
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Bird shot can deliver the energy but also make a shallow wound that will not necessarily incapacitate /netralize the threat of a determined / drugged attacker. The light/small bird shot loads can do the job but they can also fail. Buck shot can get deep enough that it hits the vitals and renders even a drugged up attacker out of service.

If you hit someone wrong, the adrenaline hits their system. Adrenaline can and does make people a damage sponge. Shot placement and penetration can take this out of the equation. Add your choice of drugs to this equation (meth., heroine, coke, salts.) before the adrenaline and it gets more interesting.

A big pipe beats nothing (intimidation). Bird shot beats no shot, buck shot beats bird. Over two hundred years of experience backs this up; there is a reason for the legendary status of the shotgun.
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Old May 31, 2012, 02:10 AM   #18
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Any evaluation of home defense rounds and pentration has to consider collateral damage.
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Old May 31, 2012, 06:57 AM   #19
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Any evaluation of home defense rounds and pentration has to consider collateral damage.
Any round that is reliably capable of limiting collatoral damage will, in turn, provide inadequately reliable penetration of bone and tissue.

Once again, TANSTAAFL.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm
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Old June 1, 2012, 06:33 AM   #20
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At close range, birdshot might work in many cases. Might could be an awfully important word though.

Consider cases like the one documented in the article at https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2000/...ide-difference (it appears the text is no longer available online for non-subscribers). The medical examiner in this case initially thought they were dealing with a homicide, because the deceased had been shot THREE TIMES with a 12 ga. shotgun at contact distance. Turns out to have been a suicide.

One particular case has been documented from Australia. In February 1995, a man committed suicide on parkland in Canberra, Australia. He took a pump action shotgun and shot himself in the chest. The load passed through the chest without hitting a rib, and went out the other side. He then walked fifteen meters, reloaded, leaned the shotgun against his throat, and shot his throat and part of his jaw. He then reloaded, walked 136 meters to a hill slope, lay down on the slope, held the gun against his chest with his hands and operated the trigger with his toes. This shot entered the thoracic cavity and demolished the heart, killing him.[4] -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_gunshot_suicide

The loads used in this case were #2 shot IIRC.

Keep in mind there are no guarantees your gunfight will go according to your plan. Chances are it will not, in fact. Consider your situation, what innocents nearby could be in danger from your projectiles if they miss or overpenetrate, and choose your defensive load or loads accordingly. Most of all, train and practice so you can hit under pressure and run the gun reflexively.
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Old June 1, 2012, 06:53 AM   #21
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A buddy of mine took a load of #6 shot in the belly from across a small bedroom. It messed him up real bad and he spent some time in the hospital having his stomach patched up but he took the gun away from the guy that shot him and beat him to death with it.
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Old June 1, 2012, 10:14 AM   #22
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" but he took the gun away from the guy that shot him and beat him to death with it. "

So #6 loaded in a s/g will kill the bad guy...
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Old June 1, 2012, 10:39 AM   #23
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So #6 loaded in a s/g will kill the bad guy..
It was a single shot 12 gauge.
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Old June 2, 2012, 03:41 AM   #24
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Damn Hawg, That is a beatch of a way to learn about wound channels and stopping power. He is lucky that it was not only bird shot but pretty small bird shot.
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Old June 4, 2012, 05:47 PM   #25
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My choice is #1 buck because it will create more deep wounds and produce a larger overall wound channel, increasing the potential incapacitation ability of this loading over the standard 00 loading.
Same here, but since finding #1B around here is a little like winning the lotto, I generally opt for 00B, something my SPX patterns very well, and 00 generally places #2 in the HD awards. I would not hesitate to put just about anything including birdshot in my shotgun for HD if it were all I had-that is until I got the proper HD load.

We're lousy with 00B around here though, just wish there were a few places that stocked #1B without having to order.
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