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Old June 6, 2012, 07:13 PM   #51
TheKlawMan
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Give it a rest, Amsdorf. Even Stevie Ray's quote implies that point and shoot is fine for HD if you can use the techique and he will if he can master it with his cross-domonance.

Quote:
I'll continue to aim until scads of practice and unique to cross-dominance experimentation leads me into the "just point it" club.
If Dave McC aims there must be a benefit to it for HD purposes, but I suspect he is so well practiced that he is on target instantly regarless of what he does. I am no were that good and admit that if a target presentation is suited for aiming I think I would aim using the bead fron sight on my 870. However, just because a target presents itself in a small room does not mean you have a lot of time to take "aim". In the former situation you could have a BG crouched down behind some furnitue and in the other he is running across a great room towards a family member.
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Old June 6, 2012, 07:28 PM   #52
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I think what Amsdorf is getting at is that he's sick of hearing things like,"Get a shotgun, you don't even have to aim" when somebody asks about home defense. If you say you've never seen or heard that you're probably not being truthful. We all know about "pointing" a shotgun for clays. As for me, I'm not very good at it, due to cross-dominance, and inside a house if I have to shoot somebody (God forbid) and I just point it in their direction, I may or may not hit them. No such thing as "Can't miss" in HD distances. My 930 SPX has wonderful sights that excell in this type of instance, and I'll continue to aim until scads of practice and unique to cross-dominance experimentation leads me into the "just point it" club.

BINGO!!!!!

The video is about shooting a shotgun for home defense, not shooting at clay pigeons with bird shot loads.
No BINGO, not at all, I can point my HD shotgun just as well for HD as I can my target gun for flying targets as it also has no rear sights except for my eyes........THAT is the point many miss.....and why so many seem to "need" to add all these other sights - my guess is because for most, the only gun they ever fired previously that wasn't part of a video game was the standard issue military rifle

I see it all the time in some of these supposed "training" videos where everyone is scrunched up on the stock like it was a M4 and their stance to firing is the same as someone firing a rifle, NOT someone who knows how to fire a shotgun - we see that especially all the time at the club - someone standing perpendicular to the target line like they would if holding a rifle for hi-power shooting

poor training and poor practice equals poor habits and poor results
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Old June 6, 2012, 10:02 PM   #53
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First time I shot clays at the club I was told to stop looking like I was using a rifle.
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Old June 7, 2012, 06:51 AM   #54
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The Mossberg 590s issued to us had peep sight rear, blade sight front. As instructed, we only used them to aim past 15 yds with slugs.
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Old June 7, 2012, 02:50 PM   #55
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Thanks, Stevie Ray. Be advised I'm cross dominant. It took some time and effort, but I worked through it.

For newer shooters, I advise shooting from the side your dominant eye, not hand, is on.

I'm starting a new thread on pointing vs aiming.....
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Old June 8, 2012, 04:08 AM   #56
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Just a note...

Shooting a shotgun in a home defense situation with 00 Buck is not the same as shooting clay birds with bird shot.

You should, whenever possible, use the sights on your defensive/tactical shotgun, that's why they are there, not simply/only for using to shoot slugs.
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Old June 8, 2012, 07:11 AM   #57
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Quote:
You should, whenever possible, use the sights on your defensive/tactical shotgun, that's why they are there, not simply/only for using to shoot slugs.
Thanks, but I'll stick to what works for me.
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Old June 8, 2012, 07:32 AM   #58
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Shooting a shotgun in a home defense situation with 00 Buck is not the same as shooting clay birds with bird shot.
In what ways?

I've shot a lot of shells downrange in clay games, 'poke shooting' at critters in the field, and in range training for HD scenarios. In all of that, I'm not sure that I ever really felt that one required a markedly different behavior than the other. In fact, my opinion has traditionally been that field work is MORE useful for skill building than just about anything else. I'm curious as to your experiences and how they differ between clays, bird, and HD training.

Quote:
The Mossberg 590s issued to us had peep sight rear, blade sight front. As instructed, we only used them to aim past 15 yds with slugs.
My walkabout 870's sport 21" rifle sight barrels; they point just fine for wing shooting (I rarely see the front sight anyway) and they give an option for fine sighting when using slugs.

I actually use the RS barrels to verify proper mount and alignment when shouldering the shotgun more than I actually use them to good use in the field.
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Old June 8, 2012, 01:13 PM   #59
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Differences between home defense with 00Buck and shooting at clay:
  1. You are shooting at pieces of clay, not people.
  2. You are not under the stress of defending yourself and/or your family.
  3. Nobody is shooting back.
  4. You are shooting birshot, not 00Buck.
  5. You are not in a house where you must put the 00 on target or risk killing somebody else
  6. You are not under high stress where your "instinctive" shooting/pointing skills will be seriously degraded.
  7. You will be shooting far fewer pieces of lead, and they must all be on target, each time, every time.

Those are a few of the differences.
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Old June 8, 2012, 04:05 PM   #60
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Those have nothing to do with pointing versus aiming - if the BG is moving quickly through your house, then pointing will be the way to get your gun on target
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Old June 8, 2012, 05:40 PM   #61
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Quote:
You should, whenever possible, use the sights on your defensive/tactical shotgun, that's why they are there, not simply/only for using to shoot slugs.
my defensive shotgun is my upland/deer/turkey gun I'm too poor for specialty shotguns or maybe too stupid I'm not sure.
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Old June 8, 2012, 07:24 PM   #62
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Amsdorf,

You are quick to make definitive statemets about the effects of stress in Home Defense versus Shooting Clays.

Have you ever fired a weapon in an actual close quarters home defense/urban combat situation?

What is your essential experience with the stress of clay shooting?
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Old June 8, 2012, 08:48 PM   #63
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"The stress of clay shooting."

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Old June 8, 2012, 09:00 PM   #64
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Amsdorf,

I see you sidestepped my question about whether you had actual close quarters combat or home defense experience. I assume that means you have none.

You also sidestepped the question about slay shooting stress. While it is of another type, I beleive an experience clay shooter would know the stress of sitting on a perfect score while trying to focus on each shot one at a time. So now it seems that you don't know experience withclays or urban armed combat.

You type well.

Troll on. . . .
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Old June 8, 2012, 09:18 PM   #65
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Quote:
"The stress of clay shooting."
Yep, they frown on practicing on people. Flying clays are a little better training than static paper circles.
The last time you were in a major competition where you were 99-straight in a 100-target event, and that final target meant the difference between champ and chump, weren't you a little stressed? Most folks are.
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Old June 8, 2012, 09:59 PM   #66
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And so this thread goes failing and falling into The Abyss of Closedness.

Sheesh!!!
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Old June 8, 2012, 10:19 PM   #67
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Well before it gets closed...let me slide in here and say the only time I aim my shotgun is when shooting slugs at deer. Shooting shot, it's point shooting...including many types of small game hunting and running combat course's done mostly in the past.

If this threads done nothing else, it's reminded me how fun running the course's used to be. Time for a refresher course.
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Old June 8, 2012, 10:55 PM   #68
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Aim at Clay Targets

If you're on the skeet, trap or SC range and you look at your front sight you're going to miss because you just stopped your swing. I've watched new shooter's barrels stop, go, stop go, because they take their eyes off the target. Stop your swing and you miss.

As far as home invasion, that's a whole different thing, comparing apples to oranges IMO. I've never had to do it, but I have shot a couple slugs at a target once and I had plenty of time to get my head on the gun, look at the front bead and then focused on the target and hit it dead center. That was in a college CJ class and the target was at 25m.

I deer hunt with a rifle and don't turkey hunt so I wont express an opinion on aiming vs pointing there.
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Old June 9, 2012, 12:15 AM   #69
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And so this thread goes failing and falling into The Abyss of Closedness.

Sheesh!!!
Yeah, I guess it's countdown to curtains, though we tried. Thanks for the words of encouragement.
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Old June 9, 2012, 03:47 AM   #70
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If it helps I apologize for implying that Amdorf is a troll and will try to play nice.
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Old June 9, 2012, 06:29 AM   #71
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If it helps I apologize for implying that Amdorf is a troll and will try to play nice.
I don't think it's unfair to call someone to the Quarterdeck to ask his qualifications after giving his opinions as fact. I am curious as to how these conclusions were reached as well. If we need to aim over barrels, why do double barrels have one bead in the center??
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Old June 9, 2012, 10:26 AM   #72
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In spite of the, let us say, sometime churlish nature of some of our comments, I do think it has been a healthy debate.

I do not think we can hope to convince clay shooters that home defense with 00 Buck is comparable, and I do not think they can convince us that it is.

I've shot a lot of sporting clays, with a lot of really great shotguns, but I do not regard this to be the same as putting 00 Buck on target in a home defense scenario.

My defense shotgun has a ghost ring and front post, and in the video, it is this sighting system I was using to get the buckshot to stay on paper, in fact, stay in a 6" circle at 25 feet.

In a defense situation, that's the kind of MOBG* I want on the target.

And regardless of what we think we can, or can't do, or aim or point or shoot the shotgun hanging upside down while spitting nickels, I think we all agree that putting the 00 Buck on the bad guy, and only the bad guy, is what we want.

* = Minute of Bad Guy.
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Old June 9, 2012, 12:20 PM   #73
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This video has bothered me from the beginning. Yes, it shows the firepower of a shotgun. But, it never address aiming vs pointing nor not aiming at all. The shooter claims he's aiming every shot; but, if it were a true test there would also be someone else who was pointing a shotgun, and we could compare the results.

It's not even a good video to give us an idea of pattern spread with respect distance because all of the distances referenced are approximate. And we don't have a clue about how well the shooter estimates distances. Nor is it an example of how different chokes might change pattern sizes.

I think my basic problem is the tread's claim to be "mythbusting" -- for me this didn't even come close to happening. I think I have a different idea about the myth than the OP does. He claims the myth is something like: "Get a shotgun, you don't even have to aim." My take on the myth is: "If your not an experienced shooter, your chances are better with a shotgun than a rifle or handgun." Who in their right mind would believe a shotgun will magically hit its target? Of course, you have to aim/point at the target.

I was curious, why the provocative, and possibly misleading title? I did notice, before I could watch the video, I had to sit through a commercial, and where there's internet ads, there's money involved. Then, I looked at the OP's TFL posting history, and it's almost exclusively in the nature of, "Look at the video I just posted." Are we the victims of subtle spam?
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Old June 9, 2012, 01:17 PM   #74
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Well, thanks for watching, Zippy.
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Old June 9, 2012, 01:24 PM   #75
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More than once
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