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Old May 29, 2012, 04:48 PM   #26
dayman
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Are you going to get close enough to apply first aid to your assailant?
I'd like to think so - assuming the threat is over.
The goal of self defense is to stop the threat, not to kill, plus, I don't like to think of myself as the kind of person that would stand by and watch someone bleed out - even if they had tried to take my stuff. But, that's less about them than it is about me.

I absolutely agree that everyone should have at least basic first aid training. As a group of people that tend to take some time preparing for the worst it does seem like most gun owners would make that choice. After all, you're far more likely to need to take advantage of first aid training than self defense training.
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Old May 29, 2012, 11:42 PM   #27
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There is no doubt that knowing basic first aid and perhaps even more in depth medical training would be beneficial in a bad situation.

However, it is a perishable skill that you need to keep up on and that is just as important as doing it in first place. Its not the hardest thing in the world to remember when you have a few minutes to think about it, but you most likely won't have a few minutes to do so in a dire situation. You can lose consciousness in about 30 seconds from a femoral artery bleed. So with that said, you must also be able to apply first aid to yourself. We did a pretty extensive medical training exercise, and applying a tourniquet one handed in a timely fashion can be quite difficult. Am I saying everyone needs to be a Corpsman or Medic? No. Though, most CCW holders feel it's better to have a gun and not need it, than not have it and need it. Why not the same for lifesaving skills? To be honest, with all the dangers in the world that don't concern a gun, not having those skills can be more dangerous for your family or yourself than situations involving self defense, IMO.
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Old May 30, 2012, 07:34 AM   #28
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I strongly believe that if you own a gun and keep it in the home for self-defense, carry it for protection or as a job requirement, bring it to the range, etc., you should also learn basic medical skills (shooter's aid) to provide basic medical care until EMS can arrive on scene. You must be able to stop and control bleeding and/or maintain an airway at a minimum until help arrives.
I'm not on board with this at all. Guns are less dangerous than cars, buses, tractors, motorcycles, milling machines, lathes, saws, cranes, sky diving, ladders, surfing, bicycling......and the list goes on. Do we need for everyone who engages in one of these far riskier behaviors to learn basic medical skills?

There are a lot of things people should know. How to render first aid is only one of many. However, this is a free country and people are free to learn as much or as little as they want. Owning guns is a right and that right should in no way be tied to some requirement that the owner have any medical training whatsoever.

Last edited by Skans; May 30, 2012 at 07:40 AM.
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Old May 30, 2012, 11:50 AM   #29
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I'd like to think so - assuming the threat is over.
The goal of self defense is to stop the threat, not to kill, plus, I don't like to think of myself as the kind of person that would stand by and watch someone bleed out - even if they had tried to take my stuff. But, that's less about them than it is about me.
LOL, if the bad guys end up in a position where they need first aid, maybe they should have prepared a little better for the consequences of the fight.

I personally have no wish to expose myself further to the threat that the will continue to have which is a biohazard threat.

The goal is to stop the threat, sure enough. I have no goals about trying to keep alive a person that threaten the lives of my family and self. I will call 911 for them so long as I can do so without risk. That is the sum total of obligation I feel I have to helping them.
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Old May 30, 2012, 04:04 PM   #30
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Like I said: it's not about what they do or don't deserve - it's about the kind of person I try to be. But that's really more an issue of religion than fire arms related tactics.
But either way, knowing basic first aid is a good idea. You'd think they could add it to HS health classes. Granted it's something you need to keep up on, but some is better than none.
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Old May 30, 2012, 04:18 PM   #31
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completing a basic first-aid course is a requirement for a driver license.
If the problem is likely to be solved by just "basic first-aid" it is not likely to be lethal anyway.

If you want to roll CPR into "basic first-aid" maybe.

But doing CPR on a person with no blood is not going to help much.

One reason it is not normally used on the battlefield.

It is far more likely a way of keeping folks from getting driver's licenses in the first place, something common in may parts of the rest of the world.
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Old June 5, 2012, 01:11 AM   #32
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I have been CPR certified since I was 14 years old, and knock on wood have never had to use it- I came close once. I agree it is something that would be helpful for most people to know, and be trained in, as well as basic first aid.

As to those who suggest that basic first aid cannot help anything lethal, then you have probably never taken a basic first aid class. Thanks to many years taking and teaching first aid, I can provide immediate assisstance to victims of cardiac arrest, gunshot wound, rattlesnake bite, electrocution, seizures, and broken limbs. I may not be able to heal a persons injuries, but basic first aid for life threatening cases is simply designed to keep the person alove until medical professionals arrive.

I do not, however, think it should be a requirement for a drivers license. I think it raises too many concerns about adding hinderences to the DL that might affect different races differently, due to having qualified instructors, where they are located, reading comprehension, etc. Even something that is not explicitly discriminatory can have discriminatory effects.
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Old June 5, 2012, 10:13 AM   #33
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As to those who suggest that basic first aid cannot help anything lethal, then you have probably never taken a basic first aid class.
I retired as a paramedic many years ago.

What you are describing is well past basic first aid.
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Old June 5, 2012, 01:32 PM   #34
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Another reason my EDC belt is a life support/CQC rescue use. You can make it very tight and stop bleeding.
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Old June 6, 2012, 12:00 AM   #35
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Another reason my EDC belt is a life support/CQC rescue use. You can make it very tight and stop bleeding.
This may be a bit overkill, but I carry two CATII tourniquets, some guaze, and compression bandages in my truck. I'd be pretty upset with myself if I was in a situation where I had oppurtunity but not the tools too help either myself or someone else. I was also doing tree work for a while, where a tourniquet may be a bit more neccesary than everyday life.
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Old June 6, 2012, 01:05 AM   #36
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@brickeyee- applying pressure to arterial bleeding, placing a seizure victim on their side while removing furniture/area hazards, and CPR are things that I have taught 11 and 12 year olds and, with continued practice, can be effectively used to help save someone's life. I am not talking about stabilizing someone, but simply knowing how to respond to provide that first immediate response. I think people misunderstand what First Aid is meant to achieve, especially in the case of life-threatening injuries/incidents.
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Old June 6, 2012, 02:15 AM   #37
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So what should we all do while we wait for all these great ideas to come to fruition?
That's easy, you go work on educating yourself. Nothing comes to fruition without individual participation gone domino. Basic first aid and CPR is fairly basic stuff to learn and everyone should take the classes.

ABC. Airway, Breathing, Circulation. First 3 things to check.

Perhaps Gangbangers should take the classes since their chosen line of work is dangerous.
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Old June 12, 2012, 10:05 PM   #38
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I agree=all should have basic medical training esp CPR. I know a local HS made it mandatory for all graduating some years back. I dont know about today.
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Old June 13, 2012, 03:49 PM   #39
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Everyone who is able should understand the basics of first aid. As many as possible should consider getting trained and certified in first aid/CPR and AED. Nearly all public places, airplanes, and large stores now have AEDs. Their use is responsible each year for saving many lives. They are easy to use but require a little training.

Whether and when to give assistance is a personal decision based on many factors. But you can't do it if you don't know how, even for a loved one.
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Old June 14, 2012, 09:29 AM   #40
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I am once again astonished at how vigorously some folks protect their own ignorance.

Too much trouble to learn a basic skillset? Really?

Four stages of denial:

1) That never happens.

2) Well, it will never happen to me.

3) If it did happen, it wouldn't be that bad.

4) There was nothing I could have done.

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Old June 14, 2012, 12:56 PM   #41
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It takes roughly 4 hours to learn Basic Life Support (BLS) from the American Heart Association. The basics will teach you skills that you can utilize if ever needed.

Here is some quick facts of how it has helped.

http://www.usatoday.com/yourlife/hea...CPR18_ST_N.htm
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Old June 14, 2012, 05:54 PM   #42
moxie
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Thanks marquez for a good article. i have personally been involved in a CPR "save." It works. I think the AED is now responsible for more saves even than CPR.
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Old June 20, 2012, 10:39 PM   #43
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Amazing to me how so many people think they have some right to tell me what I should do. It is still a free country and my right to self-defense comes from God, not from the Nanny State or the do-gooders telling me that as a firearm owner I "need" to learn CPR and first aid. Take your doctrinaire attitudes to the Democrat National Convention and share them with all your pals. Thankfully, my state does not throw any of those ridiculous "training" requirements at our citizens.
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Old June 20, 2012, 11:01 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by valleyforge.1777
Amazing to me how so many people think they have some right to tell me what I should do. It is still a free country and my right to self-defense comes from God, not from the Nanny State or the do-gooders telling me that as a firearm owner I "need" to learn CPR and first aid. ... Thankfully, my state does not throw any of those ridiculous "training" requirements at our citizens.
We're not discussing training requirements imposed by government. We're discussing knowledge and skills that a prudent person will voluntarily undertake to acquire. Yes, one has the right to remain ignorant. But he shouldn't expect to be congratulated if he makes that choice.

John Adams said, “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” I think one might add "responsible."
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Old June 20, 2012, 11:15 PM   #45
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Frank, I'll add this as a reply to you, and then bow out of the discussion so as not to tread into being taken as insulting, etc. Respectfully, I reject your right to determine if I am being ignorant. It IS a free country.
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Old June 23, 2012, 11:47 AM   #46
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As a professor, I make many decisions that folks are ignorant.

I reject the idea that we cannot opine on actions that will help or not help others.

Would one feel insulted or a part of a political party's agenda if I stated that you should pay attention to the 4 rules of gun safety?

Jeff Cooper - the biggest nanny of the RKBA community. God gives me the right to reject his advice not to point a gun at something that I don't want to destroy, treat guns as if they are loaded (a safety mnemonic), etc.

I reject, by evoking the Deity, when the SO at a match, yells: Finger at me!

Why those two retired Marines who are my friends and typical SO's are just big nannies and insulting the Deity.
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Old June 23, 2012, 12:16 PM   #47
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There's no shame in ignorance. It just means there's something you don't know.

There are a lot of things I'm completely ignorant about. These items come in three categories:
  • Things I have neither a need nor a desire to know more about. Rap music, for example; it leaves me cold, I am not interested in improving my knowledge of the genre, and I can foresee no downside to remaining ignorant on the subject.

  • Things I will one day know more about whether I want to or not. The human aging process, for example; I will either learn more about that, or I will die before I have a chance to do so.

  • Things that I really should learn more about, for my own sake. Business skills, for example; having recently started my own business, I will either learn more about this, or I will suffer for my ignorance in this area.
Medical skills for people interested in self defense fall into that last category, and that was the context in which I said I was astonished at how vigorously people protect their own ignorance. It is truly amazing that so many people would rather run the risk of suffering than suffer the risk of learning! Of course I include myself on this list. It's a very human trait, and I'm as human as anyone else.

Back to the topic at hand, here's an excellent video from the late Paul Gomez. It's been posted before, but it's worth repeating because he was absolutely on target: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6b1v9lcmG0

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Old June 26, 2012, 10:23 AM   #48
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Pax, excellent points!

But just to point out that is the same Paul Gomez video that I started this thread with.
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Old June 26, 2012, 02:28 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Willie Lowman View Post
Unless you are one of the "shoot 'em in the dark without identifying them first" group, then there is ZERO chance you will need to know first aid for gunshot wounds on loved ones.
This level of ignorance is outright dangerous!

Under stress do you expect all of your rounds to impact on your intended target? Odds are that they won't, even if you've lit him up with light. And where are those missed rounds going? If you're in your home, will they travel through a wall and strike a loved one? If you're in public, will they hit an innocent?

Better know some basic medical aid and how to stop bleeding, maintain an airway, etc. It may save a loved one's life, or if you hit an innocent in public, it may save you the stress of having to live with killing an innocent accidentally and any potential accompanying lawsuit, which is sure to follow.
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Old June 26, 2012, 02:57 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by drew332

Under stress do you expect all of your rounds to impact on your intended target? Odds are that they won't, even if you've lit him up with light. And where are those missed rounds going? If you're in your home, will they travel through a wall and strike a loved one? If you're in public, will they hit an innocent?

Better know some basic medical aid and how to stop bleeding, maintain an airway, etc. It may save a loved one's life, or if you hit an innocent in public, it may save you the stress of having to live with killing an innocent accidentally and any potential accompanying lawsuit, which is sure to follow.
Good points. There's more, though: when you are defending yourself or your family from a deadly threat, you might not escape unscathed. Your first hint that something is wrong might be that a family member gets badly hurt by the attacker. You turned around and dealt with the attacker, but your loved one is down and bleeding.

Do you know what to do about that?

It's not all about your bullets, after all. You're using deadly force because someone else used that same level of force -- deadly, crippling force! -- against you or someone you love.

A lot of concealed carry people have never thought about that before, or always assumed they'd (of course!) always be ahead of the curve with no innocents injured or killed before they got involved. That's a serious failure of mindset, right there.

Here's a quote from a man who saved many lives on a terrible day several years back. You can hear about the event in his own words on the ProArms Podcast with Mas Ayoob here: http://proarmspodcast.com/2009/09/13...nt-andy-brown/.

Andy Brown said: "The hardest thing [to cope with has been] that with all that mental preparation I had done, all the mental preparations of what could happen and how would I react, I'd always been the victor and shot the bad guy and he's down and nobody else is hurt. I never prepared myself for people losing their lives."

Go listen to that whole podcast. It's well worth the time it will take, and may open your eyes to some important preparation factors.

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