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Old June 3, 2012, 09:28 AM   #76
Edward429451
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As for why get on and post about the woes of unique, I thought that was obvious, so that newbs looking for a powder have all the info they need, which is basicaly that unique is a pretty versatile powder, but can be difficult to meter consistently....
In fairness to the noobs reading this though, I'm not sure that you should be giving advice to noobs about the (so called) difficult to meter Unique, when you admit to not being very motivated or wanting to add extra steps. I and others commonly get .2 with Unique and one motivated chap gets .1.

It has been shown that Unique measures fine for a lot of people, with both Lee and RCBS equipment. It seems to depend on ones skill for operating the equipment. If one is motivated, it's not a big deal to measure Unique consistently. If one is not motivated, then erratic results will ensue.

I believe that blaming the powder leads down the wrong road. If you are lackadaisical about measuring powder, then will you catch a mistake if you make it? Aren't you the one that said you could learn to measure Unique if you wanted to? I do not understand your lack of commitment to reloading, and your desire to put the blame for inconsistent results on the powder and offer this as advice to noobs!
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Old June 3, 2012, 09:42 AM   #77
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I call "bull-poop"

Unique has an undeniable issue with consistent metering.
So do other powders.

This is not for dispute.

The real question is "is Unique worth fussing with when there are so many other reasonable acceptable similar alternatives".

IME Unique does NOT offer the "best possible" choice in all but extremely rare examples (which is why I still keep some). Numerous other choices offer similar performance AND economy without its metering or fouling issues.
It, IME, is not about "motivation".

Yeah.
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Old June 3, 2012, 01:04 PM   #78
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I believe that blaming the powder leads down the wrong road. If you are lackadaisical about measuring powder, then will you catch a mistake if you make it? Aren't you the one that said you could learn to measure Unique if you wanted to? I do not understand your lack of commitment to reloading, and your desire to put the blame for inconsistent results on the powder and offer this as advice to noobs!
As I have said, when I am comparing two flake powder, using the same equipment, the same technique, and the same motivation and one meters 4 times as consistently, how can you blame anything BUT the powder?

You seem determined to prove unique is as easy to meter as any other powder, which its obviously NOT.

I dont know where you get the idea that I am lackadaisical about any part of my reloading. My desire not to add steps by using a bench mounted powder measure isnt about being lazy, its about common sense. When I have in my possession a powder that meters with great ease and accuracy (better accuracy than YOU get form unique) from my press mounted measure for continuous loading (one start-finish round at a time), plus leaves my guns cleaner, why would I choose to switch to batch loading (each round in and out of the press twice) and use my bench mounted measure, simply to get more consistent results from a difficult to meter powder?

Thats not LAZY, its SMART

You yourself said you and others are getting .2gr accuracy, as if thats somehow great accuracy. With power pistol, I'm getting .05, even with my measure doing the hula atop my press..... Take a step back and think about that for a second....
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Old June 3, 2012, 06:27 PM   #79
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Now you say you get better consistency with Unique than I do? You get .4 extreme spread, I got .2 extreme spread with .05 average deviation with Unique. I fail to see how you do better unless you meant a different type of powder. I can do better with other powders also!

All these other people using Lee equipment and getting better results than you sets the standard for you. If you can't get as consistent as others with the same equipment, you're doing something wrong. I bet I could come in there and run your equipment better than you can.

Bud, I don't care how you reload and I'm not trying to tell you what to do. I'm just saying that you shouldn't get on here saying that Unique is difficult to work with because there have been many people posted who said it's just another powder and meters fine for them. Of course there are better metering powders, that's not question, Unique is.

Unique may not be the best or most consistent. But in the face of so many people who have no trouble with Unique, I must declare that Unique is difficult to meter to be an internet myth. It's not hard! One tap at top, one tap at bottom using standard equipment, nothing fancy.

If it was not motivation, then what? If it is not disputed, then I am a liar, and others who say no problem with it also are liars? No, we're looking at something else here. Some people are better than others at things, that's all it is.
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Old June 3, 2012, 07:47 PM   #80
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Now you say you get better consistency with Unique than I do? You get .4 extreme spread, I got .2 extreme spread with .05 average deviation with Unique. I fail to see how you do better unless you meant a different type of powder. I can do better with other powders also!
Try re-reading that, I said I get better consistency with POWER PISTOL than you get with unique. If unique meters so well, then why is that?

Quote:
Unique may not be the best or most consistent.
Thats all I have been saying....

Quote:
One tap at top, one tap at bottom using standard equipment, nothing fancy.

If it was not motivation, then what? If it is not disputed, then I am a liar, and others who say no problem with it also are liars? No, we're looking at something else here.
Again, different equipment for one thing, there is no way to tap up, tap down, with a press mounted measure (and before you call me lazy again, why should I use different equipment, when the equipment I am using works just fine with a different powder?).....

I never said it was IMPOSSIBLE to meter unique consistently. I AM saying is MUCH EASIER to meter power pistol and many other powders consistently. Thats all I have ever been saying, Unique is a difficult to meter powder.
Using the same equipment, same method, power pistol meters 4x more consistently for me.

Quote:
Some people are better than others at things, that's all it is.
Definitely not disputing that either.... In fact its exactly what I have been saying. Unique is a difficult to meter powder. People people with more "time at the wheel" dont find it difficult, fine, but that doesnt mean it ISN'T difficult.

If 3 people in 10 can do something with great ease, while the other 7 have a tough time with it, those 7 are just morons for not being able to do a "simple" task? I think not. Thats pretty insulting to the many people in this thread that HAVE reported difficulty metering unique, in fact read back you will find that MORE people have reported difficulty than not.....

Or, try this, do a google search for " powder unique meter" and click a few links... Either the world is full of morons, or unique is difficult to meter....

Or, go on blindly insulting me despite plenty of proof you are wrong when you say that unique is not a difficult powder to meter.

bet I know which you will choose....
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Old June 3, 2012, 08:36 PM   #81
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Unique may not be the best or most consistent. But in the face of so many people who have no trouble with Unique, I must declare that Unique is difficult to meter to be an internet myth. It's not hard! One tap at top, one tap at bottom using standard equipment, nothing fancy.-Edward429451


That "myth" has been around longer than I've been on the Internet but I'm sure the 'net has helped it spread. It worked fine for me in my Uniflow but my technique is similar to yours. It didn't work especially well in my early Dillon 550 but the powder measure was a problem area in those days, lost track of how many upgrades I did in that area. At the time Unique was my favorite powder in the 9mm but that's ben a long time, have no doubt there are better powders now. Unique meters like a dream compared to many of my favorite rifle powders, but that's quite likely off-topic.
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Old June 4, 2012, 06:53 AM   #82
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As I said, Unique's interesting.... proclivities... have been the subject of discussion for nearly 100 years, and have been mentioned in most of the major trade publications various and multiple times.

And, as I noted, even Hercules addressed the issue in years past.

When the manufacturer says hey, we know it can be problematic out of volumetric measures, but its benefits outweigh its drawbacks, well, then you can only come to a single conclusion....

Those fool tool idiot manufacturers don't know what the hell they're talking about because Ed's never had a problem, and by God Ed is DA MAN!

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Old June 4, 2012, 06:17 PM   #83
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Unique may not be the best or most consistent. But in the face of so many people who have no trouble with Unique, I must declare that Unique is difficult to meter to be an internet myth.
Ok, then explain why I spent months trying to get unique to meter consistently, including disassembling my powder measure several times, and was only able to achieve +/- .2gr accuracy, and then upon switching to power pistol, using the same equipment , same press, same technique, the first batch came out with a +/-.05gr consistency......

I dont see how one can say unique is not consistant, and then in the same paragraph say its not difficult to meter consistantly ....
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Old June 4, 2012, 09:39 PM   #84
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Ok, then explain why I spent months trying to get unique to meter consistently, including disassembling my powder measure several times, and was only able to achieve +/- .2gr accuracy, and then upon switching to power pistol, using the same equipment , same press, same technique, the first batch came out with a +/-.05gr consistency......

I dont see how one can say unique is not consistant, and then in the same paragraph say its not difficult to meter consistantly ...
Ummm, because Power Pistol is a finer grained powder? PP measures tighter for me also. BLC2 has no variation for me in my Dillon 550B. If you want to discuss problem powders, let's talk IMR-4064!

I was making a broad statement about Unique not being consistent compared to other powders but it is consistent for me within it's limits and uses.

I still think that the 3 of the 10 that has no problem with Unique sets the standard for you guys to do better! lol. I think that Unique would measure better for you if you had a UniFlow.
LOL Mike! I guess I am a Jedi!
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Old June 4, 2012, 09:48 PM   #85
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Now if ya lookin for Unique performance in a powder aot use Hodgdons Clays Universal .

I just bought a pound of both. Are you saying I should load the Universal and help mama's flowers?
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Old June 4, 2012, 10:11 PM   #86
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Ummm, because Power Pistol is a finer grained powder? PP measures tighter for me also. BLC2 has no variation for me in my Dillon 550B. If you want to discuss problem powders, let's talk IMR-4064!

I was making a broad statement about Unique not being consistent compared to other powders
Sooooo.... Then you might say that power pistol is easier to meter consistently than unique?....

Where I come from, if A is easier than B, that means B is more difficult than A.... I guess It could be different wherever you guys live, but I kinda doubt it....
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Old June 7, 2012, 12:29 AM   #87
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My Charge Master measures everything equally well. Best $250 I ever spent.
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Old June 7, 2012, 08:09 AM   #88
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There are lots of powders that measure more consistent than Unique. The whole point is that Unique is not that difficult to meter if one has resonable equipment and technique. That you can measure others powders ok for your uses but not Unique indicates to me that your equipment is letting you down.

It seems as if you wanted to use Unique, but your equipment said no. So now you are stuck with PP or another fine grain powder. Not the end of the world yet you should be able to use the powder of your choice. When ones equipment leaves them lacking, it is time to upgrade the equipment.

Also, in fairness to the powder, you set obstacles in front of your success with Unique. Demanding that it function like you want with your setup as is and not moving to accommodate it. You could always set up your measure closer to your press?
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Old June 7, 2012, 10:50 AM   #89
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"If you want to discuss problem powders, let's talk IMR-4064!"

Not so much, and there in lies an ENORMOUS difference between IMR-type stick powders and just about any pistol powder.

IMR-stick type powders are probably the most forgiving powders there are. There can be significant variations in actual powder weight with virtually NO change in velocity, pressure, or accuracy. (See Hatcher's Notebook)

With most, if not all, IMR powders, loading density and powder position in the case seem to be FAR more important factors than absolute weight of the powder charge.

I use IMR 4064 because it gives outstanding accuracy in my rifles. In years past I obtained sub 1/2" groups using metered, but unweighed, charges of 4064 in my heavy-barrel .243.

With pistol powders, though, a comparable weight variation can spell serious trouble.
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Old June 7, 2012, 10:59 AM   #90
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"The whole point is that Unique is not that difficult to meter if one has resonable equipment and technique."


And there are numerous people here, myself included, who have BOTH reasonable equipment and reasonable technique and still find Unique to be less than satisfactory and for those reasons we have abandoned it.



"There are lots of powders that measure more consistent than Unique."

Yes, there are. Finally it seems that you're willing to admit that. Maybe 50 - 60 years ago Unique was a much more attractive alternative powder when there were far fewer powders from which to choose. That lack of powders is why my old loading manuals show 2400 as a choice for lead bullet loads in the .38 Special.

Today, though, Unique... well, it's no longer unique. Many powders have surpassed it in metering accuracy and how cleanly they burn, and there are many that are just about as versatile as Unique. Plus many of the newer powders will give greater velocity with less powder.

Were I totally new to reloading, and looking coldly at those four factors alone, I would NEVER select Unique as a primary choice for handloading.

The only reason I can think of as to why so many still use it is because it's become a habit. Nothing more.
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Old June 7, 2012, 12:39 PM   #91
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Unique will remain popular on its merits. Loaded to mid to mid-high charge levels, it is accurate, consistent, non-position sensitive, and clean burning. Not to mention that it is as "universal" as a powder can get. Like the single action revolver, Unique is here to stay regardless of the fact that some don't like it. You get good velocity at safe pressure levels. There is no down-side to Unique at mid to mid-high charge levels other than some have trouble metering it. Most don't, some do. Same with everything in life, there is a cost/benefit analysis for each to weigh and decide. One measure, are the customer/user reviews/ratings on Midway USA, and it is essentially a "five star" product. Get what you like and don't get what you don't like. I like Unique for .45 Colt, .38 special and .44 special and 12 guage slugs. I like big slow bullets/slugs. It is foolish to think that Unique will not continue to be a popular choice for many reloaders.
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Old June 7, 2012, 12:58 PM   #92
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I simply have a conceptual issue with - in order to get consistent powder throws - having to go through a multi-step process to charge each case that involves:

1. Putting Ace of Bass on the stereo, very loud, with the bass turned all the way up.
As do I, especially that part in bold. Ain't happening.

I too have had metering issues with Unique. For what I use it for, I can live with the .02gr differences which is usually as bad as it gets. I mostly reserve it for 45 Colt loads, but have used it for other stuff. It has a place on my bench, despite the metering issues.

The bigger problem I have with it is what the Lee chart says it's gonna throw and what it actually throws is a MAJOR difference. Like several grains difference. Don't know if I got a faulty chart or what, but I just tested most of the holes on the powder thrower and recorded what they actually throw, and use that as my reference. I've been meaning to post about it, haven't got around to it. I only think about it when I'm using unique and I'm busy loading then.
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Old June 7, 2012, 03:05 PM   #93
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Lee charts are guides. They are developed with one or more lots of powder but over time powder densities change as new lots make it to market.

You would find the same issue with any powder lot to lot.

To rely on just the lee published guide sheets and expect all to be well (and lee warns against doing that)clockwork is not a smart move.
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Old June 7, 2012, 03:34 PM   #94
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Lee charts are guides. They are developed with one or more lots of powder but over time powder densities change as new lots make it to market.

You would find the same issue with any powder lot to lot.
So lot to lot it changes by entire grain amounts? I do not believe that is what's happening. Even if things changed over time, then they need to update their charts cause it's not even close. I've used powder from about 3 different containers of unique, didn't buy any of them new. They all drop the same charge given the same auto disk setting, what I have written down from the first container has been consistent with the others. It's grains apart from what it should be acccording to Lee.

The other powders I've used all throw within 0.1 grain of what is published in the charts. I only throw charges of pistol powder, I spoon and trickle rifle charges. Tedious I know. Off the top of my head:

Titegroup
HP38/W231
Clays
Bullseye
700x

Quote:
To rely on just the lee published guide sheets and expect all to be well (and lee warns against doing that)clockwork is not a smart move.
Hence checking with scales, which is how I found the discrepancy in the first place. I will post some numbers tonight. You want me to start a new thread about making sure to check thrown weights, or should I continue to piggyback onto this thread?
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Old June 7, 2012, 04:17 PM   #95
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Unique + Lead bullets = Nirvana

In my experience I get better results with Unique pushing lead bullets than any other powder.

So, dippers are made, rounds are loaded, nirvana is experienced repeatedly.

Nuff said.

All the Best,
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Old June 7, 2012, 05:00 PM   #96
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Sorry, Hunt, I thought you were talking about Lee charts with powders in general, not just with Unique.
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Old June 7, 2012, 06:58 PM   #97
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There are lots of powders that measure more consistent than Unique. The whole point is that Unique is not that difficult to meter if one has resonable equipment and technique. That you can measure others powders ok for your uses but not Unique indicates to me that your equipment is letting you down.

It seems as if you wanted to use Unique, but your equipment said no. So now you are stuck with PP or another fine grain powder. Not the end of the world yet you should be able to use the powder of your choice. When ones equipment leaves them lacking, it is time to upgrade the equipment.

Also, in fairness to the powder, you set obstacles in front of your success with Unique. Demanding that it function like you want with your setup as is and not moving to accommodate it. You could always set up your measure closer to your press?
I didnt say unique was the most difficult powder ever to measure, but you obviously agree its far from the easiest as well.... it is definitely the most difficult
powder I have ever tried, which I admit isnt that many...

As for wanting to use unique, I want a versatile powder that meets my needs. Turns out one of my needs is a powder that meters well. Back when I started reloading 9mm, I had narrowed my choices down to unique and power pistol. Both had many people saying they were good, I didnt want one over the other, in the end I decided on unique simply because the name sounded cooler than power pistol. Had I read a thread like this one, I definitely would have chosen power pistol instead....

And lastly, the tree steps I am talking about adding with my bench measure and not physical steps, my bench mounted measure is within arms reach of my press. the steps are procedural steps. Namly, removing the case from the press, charging it, then putting it back in. Rather than have it charge when I expand.....

I still dont get how you can say its the equipment letting me down, when the equipment works fine with another powder. When I troubleshoot something, I replace components one at a time, and when the problem goes away, the last component I replaced is the defective one. In this case, the defective component was the powder....
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Old June 8, 2012, 12:00 AM   #98
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I still dont get how you can say its the equipment letting me down
Because you get a .4 extreme spread with it where others like me get .2 or better. I find it hard to beleive that you can't operate the equipment so that leaves the equipment itself.
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Old June 8, 2012, 12:14 AM   #99
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I too have had metering issues with Unique. For what I use it for, I can live with the .02gr differences which is usually as bad as it gets.
Hmm.
I think anybody in the game would be ecstatic with .02 gr differences.
A lot of them are ok with .2 gr differences.
Darn decimal points. Nobody ever confused 1/4 dram with 1/16 dram.


Has anybody SHOT THE GUN?
How many fps variation does .2 grain variation in a typical Unique load give? (About 3% of a top .45 ACP load, isn't it?)
How many fps variation do you get in charges weighed to the exact tenth, which is as close as most consumer grade reloading scales will do?
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Old June 8, 2012, 12:26 AM   #100
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Quote:
Hmm.
I think anybody in the game would be ecstatic with .02 gr differences.
A lot of them are ok with .2 gr differences.
Darn decimal points. Nobody ever confused 1/4 dram with 1/16 dram.
Yeah Jim, that was a typo. Darn zeroes are always sneaking into places they shouldn't be. 0.2gr would be what I was after, and looking back at my notes it's more than 0.2 sometimes. I started another thread with my findings:http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=492543

Quote:
Has anybody SHOT THE GUN?
How many fps variation does .2 grain variation in a typical Unique load give? (About 3% of a top .45 ACP load, isn't it?)
How many fps variation do you get in charges weighed to the exact tenth, which is as close as most consumer grade reloading scales will do?
That's the bottom line for me. I don't own a chronograph, but 0.2+ gr variation with Unique holds minute of water jug with my rifle at 50 yards, so I don't really care. I can substitute minute of water jug to minute of coyote at that distance, which is as good as I need it to be for the time being.
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