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Old May 27, 2012, 11:59 PM   #26
Edward429451
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I...I'm a Jedi? Woo-hoo!

Here's a pic of my setup. Nothing special there, just good ol' RCBS. I use a good firm stroke with a good tap both top and bottom, pausing at the top to give the powder a moment to settle. I've seen one of my buddys that I was teaching to reload cycle it a little too fast and the powder throws were light and erratic. I used to have to mount my Uni-Flow to my press and you have to use the nut on the bottom and cinch it down solid so you can bash it around a little. Works for me

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Old May 28, 2012, 12:21 AM   #27
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Ah, that explains it. I did mention in the first post that this is with a lee auto disk, which is mounted to the die. You are comparing apples to oranges here. Of course its a lot easier to be consistent with a bench mounted powder measure than a die mounted measure on a turret press.
I'm sure if I wanted to go to the trouble of using my bench mounted measure I could get unique to meter good enough, but then I would be adding 3 extra steps to each cartridge. I would have to pull the handle to flare the case mouth, take it out of the press, charge it, then put it back in the press, rather than just pull the handle and it gets flared and charged at the same time.....

No, I think I will just stick with power pistol, which gives fine consistency even with a die mounted powder measure.... Try getting your jedi-consistent drops with unique using an auto disk on a turret press, then we will talk.
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Old May 28, 2012, 05:44 AM   #28
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Well like I said I wasn't looking to offend you, in any way, form, or fashion. I did read your post, and saw what you went through. My comments were directed more towards the "NOOB" as you put it.

If you feel I was talking down, or derogatory, to you in any way, I apologize as that was not the intent.
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Old May 28, 2012, 06:27 AM   #29
rebs
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I don't have a problem with Unique. I have a RCBS powder dump and use two solid taps up and a solid tap down. The only time I get an unacceptable variation is if I screw up and do not get a consistent tap of the handle.
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Old May 28, 2012, 08:13 AM   #30
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I...I'm a Jedi? Woo-hoo!

YOU ARE MY SON LUKE.................. May the Force be with you
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Old May 28, 2012, 09:02 AM   #31
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My Lee Pro auto disc measure is spot on with Unique, using the disc, however the adjustable charge bar is another story.
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Old May 28, 2012, 11:03 AM   #32
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If Unique is all that is available, then it would be worth it to learn a better metering technique. When you have a couple dozen powders on tap however it's more efficient just to get something that is similar in performance and flows better.

Heck, I didn't even like Unique with my dippers. It was like loading Corn Flakes.
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Old May 28, 2012, 12:57 PM   #33
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No offense, but c'mon you guys...I am no Jedi. You only have to be 10% smarter than the dreaded Unique to meter it properly.

It's a fantastic powder, and I use it in pistol-rifle-shotgun. Unique is fantastic for 12 Ga slug loads. My slugs were so accurate that I had no difficulty continually tagging a 12" X 24" pc of sheet metal at 100 yds offhand with my short police trade in barrel. I can't do that with factory slugs with the same regularity. Oops, thread drift, sorry.

Conquer that Unique. Make it work for you! You are the Master.

At first I thought it might be the color of the measures, but I see good results being posted from folks with red measures. I wonder what Lees tolerance is? Perhaps some of Lees measures are better than others? For me, keeping a .2 max spread with Unique is child's play. It has to be equipment or installation, the measure can't wobble. Anyone using Redding measure getting .4 with Unique?
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Old May 28, 2012, 08:00 PM   #34
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Ok, go chronograph your Unique and Power Point loads. See if there is a difference.

I have a bunch of AA#5, a ball powder. I load my cartridges on a Dillion 550B so all charges are thrown.

I just checked my spreadsheet and in terms of extreme spreads and standard deviations, Unique, Bullseye definitely, were tighter than the ball powder in 45ACP, in 45 LC, Unique was equal if not better.

So the powder charges meter better. The implicit assumption is that is meaningful measure of performance. Have you tested it, or are you merely controlling a meaningless variable?. Sort of like the implicit assumption that shiny brass shoots better than brown brass.

Which we all know to be true. Shiny brass always shoots better than dirty brass. LOL.
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Old May 28, 2012, 08:09 PM   #35
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Loaded from mid-level to mid-high level Unique works real good and as noted above, it is not demanding of exact charge weights, and is not position sensitive either. Not for everyone, but Unique has, and will always have, many fans. Kind of like the .45 Colt (which works real good with Unique).
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Old May 28, 2012, 08:11 PM   #36
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You certainly may be right slamfire, I havent chrony'd anything...

I do like shiny brass though.....
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Old May 29, 2012, 05:49 AM   #37
Mike Irwin
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I've been reloading for over 35years. I've tried Unique a number of times using many different techniques to get consistent loads. All have generally failed. I've also used a wide cariety of powder measures including Lee, Lyman, Belding and Mull, RCBS, Pacific and others. None have resulted in truly consistent loads.

Even Hercules in the past indicated that Unique would give greater variations because of its shape and size.

Simple fact is that it can be a problematic powder to work with technique or not.
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Old May 29, 2012, 07:46 AM   #38
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What is it about Unique? There are other flake powders out there and you don't here them getting bashed? I'll be the first to admit ball powdres meter better. I can get 5" groups at 100 yds out of a SBH Hunter in 44 mag using Unique and a Magnus 240 SWC. That same load using a Berry plated 240 RN will not stay on a 20" X 20" target. That Berry bullet is a great bullet - it just don't work for me. Unique is a great powder - it just don't work for everyone. I guess I could go to all that trouble to make the Berry bullet work but why? The Magnus bullet works just fine. The Berry bullet is a fine bullet and Unique is a fine powder - it just don't work for everyone
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Old May 29, 2012, 08:15 AM   #39
Mike Irwin
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No one is bashing Unique.

Far from it.

Many of us, however, are stating our EXPERIENCES with the powder, experiences that match what has been said about the powder for a very long time.

That's a far cry from bashing int.

I also don't see any indication that people are denying that Unique is perhaps the single most versatile powder on the market, and has been for a long time.
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Old May 29, 2012, 10:28 AM   #40
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Metering unique.... I didnt believe it.... now I do..

Quote:
Located in the Ballistics Laboratory of Alliant Powder is a jug of water which contains a batch of Unique powder that was produced in 1899. Periodically, a small sample is withdrawn, dried and test fired. After 113 years, it still meets the current specifications for Unique.
Just a bit of trivia concerning Unique and how long its been around._
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Old May 29, 2012, 02:17 PM   #41
Edward429451
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We need to keep things in perspective and look at the big picture. It seems to be playing itself out as an equipment/labor problem moreso than the powder itself. It has been shown that consistent (.2) results are easily possible with Unique.

I can't deny that many people can not keep this tolerance. Let's look at the big picture, shall we? Dacurs measure dangles on top of a die, on a turret, doing the Hula (equipment) and he doesn't want to walk 3 steps to the good measure. (labor) He can't keep a .2 spread and this is the powders fault?

It is said that many people also have metering troubles with Unique? Look at the proliferation of cheap equipment on the market! Many people are uh, in labor saving mode, to put it lightly. Many are noob reloaders and many are not mechanically inclined. That is why we hear reports of people who get good results with Lee equipment. These guys are mechanically inclined, serviceman types, willing to make an extra effort, because that is the nature of Service, make it work when it wont but should. (myself included, though I do not use Lee so much).

It is in this way that Richard Lee (Li?) lets his customers down. He peddles his wares to a mostly inexperienced crowd. If your Hula Girl Measure setup could keep the same consistencies as my Uni-Flow, you would not get it at a bargain price. Richard Li got you. What do you mean I can't measure the single most versatile powder on the market?! (Is what I'd ask).

Time to upgrade my friend. Powder is important. Your other powders that do meter well enough for you? I'd bet I can hold those tighter than you can also.
(Flame suit on!)
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Old May 29, 2012, 02:35 PM   #42
Mike Irwin
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Hum.... i dont think i would categorize my belding and mull or my rcbs uniflow as "cheap equipment".

I do need to add that i used unique primarily to load. 32 long. In such a small cartridge a .2 grain variance is a huge issue.

Simple truth is that unique has a grain structure that is predisposed to these kind of variances. Cheap equipment has little to do with it. If it were a case of a heap equipment, then my Lee pro disk measure wouldnt be able to match either my uniflow or my belding and mull throw for throw when loading with ball powders.
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Old May 29, 2012, 04:12 PM   #43
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OK how about a question on another powder

I haven't used UNique in decades and can't remember how it performed for me.

I have been using BUllseye powder and I find that I consistently get a 1/10 grain variance when trying for a 6 grain load (45 acp / 185 grain Berrys plated bullets).
Once in a while I get a 2/10 of a grain variance, but I blame me for that.

Does that seem seem like reasonable results ?

Tools/Technique
A very old RCBS Powder measure that I added a 'baffle' to a few years ago.
I keep the measure more than half-full.
'Bump' the measure on each downstroke.
I Dump three or four loads to 'settle the powder' before loading my brass.
I use an Inexpensive FrankFord Arsenal DS750 electronic powder scale.
I weigh the first piece of brass from each loading block to set the 'Tare' value and then load and weigh that same brass three times.

As indicated, about 90% of the time I get 5.9 or 6.0 grains.
.
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Old May 29, 2012, 04:18 PM   #44
Edward429451
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I knew you'd be back. Mike, you've never displayed a defeatist attitude, so it doesn't surprise me that you can make it work. You prolly have mechanical aptitude too. But if what you say is true, then I couldn't meter Unique properly either.

I agree .2 can get you into trouble in some instances. This is why we measure consistency. When one is closer to max than the consistency of throw in variance...time to hand weigh.

That close to max is not where Unique shines anyway, but rather in medium loads where .2 is not a problem in variance. Carry on.
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Old May 29, 2012, 05:42 PM   #45
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Gee I must have missed the part where on my friends Hornady Progressive Press mounted Hornady Pacific powder measure threw charges that we were all over the map. That included inconsistent throws, bridging problems, and the occasional over charge; hence pop / boom syndrome. We never had that problem with W231.

I guess that Hornady products are what some must be referring to a "Cheap" equipment because it is red. There QC back in the early 90's must have been terrible.

Going to a bench mounted powder dispenser when running a Progressive Press is like eating everything but the ribeye on the plate and having the kids hamburger patty. But hey, if you want to run a bench mounted press while running a progressive it's your time and effort.

Over the years I have found powders better suited to what I want to do and put up with. I still load a bulk of my loads single stage and for most of those loads I used a Lee Hand Press. But if I run a batch on that old Hornady, I know a few powders that I will not use.
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Old May 29, 2012, 06:13 PM   #46
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Quote:
I can't deny that many people can not keep this tolerance. Let's look at the big picture, shall we? Dacurs measure dangles on top of a die, on a turret, doing the Hula (equipment) and he doesn't want to walk 3 steps to the good measure. (labor) He can't keep a .2 spread and this is the powders fault?
Imagine two flake powders in plain white bottles with no names displayed, just listed as powder A and powder B. put some of powder A in measure doing the hula on top of a turret press and drop some charges. Do the same with Powder B. Same person doing the charging, same equipment, same technique.

Powder A drops loads that vary +/- .2gr.

Powder B drops loads that vary +/- .05gr.

Which powder, assuming both were well suited for the application at hand, would you choose?

This is what I am facing, and somehow, some people have the gall to say the problem is "my sloppy technique"..... Well, if the problem is me, they why does one powder vary by only +/- .05gr. while the other varies +/- .2gr., when they are being dispensed using the EXACT SAME TECHNIQUE?

Doesnt make much sense, does it?

Why should I add extra steps to my reloading process when either powder will work just as well for what I am doing? Only a fool would choose to add those extra steps simply to get a difficult to meter powder to meter right when he has another powder avalable that meters just fine without the extra steps, am I wrong?
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Old May 29, 2012, 06:56 PM   #47
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I used Unique for decades... made some good loads with it, but some powder measures like it better than others. I switched to Universal a few years after its introduction and noticed that like unique, I got flash leading from certain revolver loads where velocity obviously wasn't the factor.

Somebody had given me a half pound of W231, so I ran off a batch of 45 ACP and midrange .357 with it. The fact that it metered so much better was great, but leading was also reduced and the loads were as accurate, if not more so, than the Universal/Unique loads I'd been using.

I've used 231 for about ten years now and have adapted loads for every handgun I shoot. I have been Universally (LOL) pleased with the results.
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Old May 29, 2012, 08:18 PM   #48
Edward429451
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All powder will have it's limits of consistency according to the flake design. Unique's limit seems to be .2 max spread. Other powders limits may be more or less. That you get +/- .2 (assuming reasonable technique), then your equipment is letting you down and you should upgrade to something that will let you keep .2 max spread, as I noted.

I hope I didn't confuse anyone and make it sound like I use a bench mount powder throw for loading on my progressives. I have Dillon 550Bs and I'm pert sure that they will hold .2 with Unique also.

There are too many people getting .2 with Unique for you guys to accept less, or admit defeat. That's the way I think at least. YMMV.
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Old May 29, 2012, 09:21 PM   #49
Mike Irwin
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I simply have a conceptual issue with - in order to get consistent powder throws - having to go through a multi-step process to charge each case that involves:

1. Putting Ace of Bass on the stereo, very loud, with the bass turned all the way up.

2. Strapping a running electric razor to the powder dispenser.

3. Installing a 12-part powder baffle system.

4. Tapping the powder thrower 17 times with the handle of a screw driver.

5. Slapping the thrower handle - upstroke AND downstroke - with exactly 33.895 Newton meters of force.

6. Hopping 7 times on my left foot.

7. Elbow slamming the top of the loading bench exactly 193.7 mm to the left of the press.

Why should I go through that when, for virtually no effort at all, I can get EXACTLY 5.4 grains of WW 231 every time I pull the handle on my press, not 5.2 grains OR 5.7 grains OR something in between?

Doesn't make much sense at all to me.

Yes, Unique is versatile.

But there are also a lot of other powders that are almost as versatile but which burn a LOT cleaner and which meter flawlessly for virtually no effort, and certainly don't require a "tap-rack-bang-thump-hop-slam-shake-wiggle-hop" dance just to arrive at the off change that you MIGHT get the same charge as you threw last time.

You want to stick with Unique? That's your business. But don't try to claim that traits that have been observed by handloaders and reported in industry publications for 100 plus years are somehow new and unique (no pun intended) and just HAVE to be the fault of the new breed of cheap equipment and handloaders who haven't learned the proper powder measure mazurka.

That's silly, and it's patently disingenuous.
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Old May 29, 2012, 09:56 PM   #50
dacaur
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+1, well said Mike Irwin. Much more eloquent than I have been able to put it.

As for uniques' versatility, i'm not denying that, it's definitely a jack of many trades, but since the only thing I load that unique is useful for at this time is 9mm, thats not much of a plus...
Looking to the future, everything I might load that unique will work for, power pistol does as well... Unique is not unique in being a versatile powder...
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