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Old May 25, 2012, 07:09 PM   #1
Amsdorf
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Who had the best machine guns? America or the Nazis - MOVIE

I thought you guys would appreciate this old Army movie.

I'm still trying to put my feelings about it into words, but it is apparent it was intended to bolster confidence in American machine guns in light of the overwhelming superiority of the German machine guns.

Here is the movie, see what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35R2WENXMl8
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Old May 25, 2012, 07:48 PM   #2
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That's the propaganda one I mentioned in the other thread, at least in regards to the MG34. They use it in exactly the way it's NOT used in real life. In real life, guns like the MG34 are used as long range shotguns against moving targets that are only exposed for a short period of time. Having spread is not necessarily a bad thing because rarely will your aim be perfect anyway
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Old May 25, 2012, 07:53 PM   #3
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This could be one of those endless threads.. So many different aspects to each gun that is a plus & Minus...

None were Failures, Each has its advantages

I think the bigger issue on the Heavy machine guns is how they were used..

The Germans used their Machine guns to attack with the rest of the squad used to support the gun

The Americans used the foot soldier to attack with the Machine guns to support them..

As someone who has played & stripped both the 1919a4 and the Mg42, When I field strip the the Mg42, I am always dripping blood from a scrap or a cut. There is a lot of sharp edges on that beast .. Never when I strip the 1919a4... The 1919a4 IMHO is a better designed creature.. (Thank you John browning)

On the other hand the quick change barrel on the mg42 is to die for...

Also on an emotional level.. The Mg42 is just beautiful with its futuristic/Art Deco look..
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Old May 25, 2012, 07:54 PM   #4
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I think the MG42 influenced, by far, the development of machine guns, much more than Browning's 1919.

Of course, the video didn't even mention the BMG .50

I wonder why not?
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Old May 25, 2012, 07:56 PM   #5
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Oh Mucho thanks for posting this... A great chance to hear the different barks of each gun
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Old May 25, 2012, 07:59 PM   #6
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I think they were featuring infantry weapons.. And the 50.. God bless it is just not an infantry weapon
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Old May 25, 2012, 08:47 PM   #7
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That was my favorite part two, really hearing the difference.

Nothing like that MG42. Hoooly crap!
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Old May 25, 2012, 09:22 PM   #8
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It was called Hitler's Zipper for its fast rate of fire. Wasn't the M-60 heavily influenced by the MG-42?
Thanks for the video, first time I heard them all fie together like that.
Also first time I heard an M3 Grease Gun called "new".
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Old May 25, 2012, 09:25 PM   #9
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Yes, to my knowledge, it was.
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Old May 26, 2012, 12:21 AM   #10
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All of the stamped sheet steel guns were pretty similar.

I think the M3 grease gun was as good as the German MP 38/40 Schmeisser. It was accurate, relatively light, and very robust. The M 3 was also more compact than its German counterpart. Its rate of fire was 450rpm as opposed to 500 for the MP 38/40.

The M1928A1 Thompson was, except for its weight, superior to the Schmeisser.

The MG 34/42 were better than the M1919 .30. That being said the M1919 was a fine gun in its own right.
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Old May 26, 2012, 01:12 AM   #11
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The feed system on the M-60 was more or less copied from the MG42, and it seems that the M-60 bolt has more than a passing resemblance to a Lewis gun.
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Old May 26, 2012, 09:10 AM   #12
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Quote:
As someone who has played & stripped both the 1919a4 and the Mg42, When I field strip the the Mg42, I am always dripping blood from a scrap or a cut. There is a lot of sharp edges on that beast .. Never when I strip the 1919a4... The 1919a4 IMHO is a better designed creature.. (Thank you John browning)
I assure you, that is the ONLY advantage of the 1919 design. No one during WWII designed guns around the concept of not getting cut during dis assembly. The MG 42 had a high rate of fire, was made of stamped metal, reliable, etc. You should probably talk to about it with a 88 yr old man who faced one and see what he says. Our men were terrified of the MG 42 because we knew how powerful of a weapon it was. Ever see the propaganda film where the guy is telling the American soldier not to be afraid of the sound of an MG 42. It had a specific sound because it fired so fast, the rounds fired did not report the same as other machine guns of the time. It was like the sound of dominance for Allied soldiers.

As for submachine guns, thats close. The Mp40 was probably easier to make and it was lighter. The Thompson has the better cal and was controllable. However, the MP43/44 was one of the best arms of the war IMO. It combined the semi rifle and the submachine gun, giving someone the benefits of each.
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Old May 26, 2012, 02:42 PM   #13
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The tommygun was made to too high of a standard for military use, in my opinion. MP40 must have been infinitely easier to stamp out than the tommy was to make. But the Soviets made some very effective and reliable machine guns and subguns, perhaps better than either the Americans or the Germans
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Old May 26, 2012, 04:15 PM   #14
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The 1928 Thompson was very intricate, difficult and expensive to make. The M-3 Grease Gun was cheap, stamped, reliable and could be made very quickly. I did have a buddy who had them in his Army Reserve Tank unit in the 80s, and said it was as accurate as a thrown brick...but they weren't new any more.
The Soviet subgun that made history was the PawPawShaw, the PPsH 41. The subsequent PPsH 43 was a better gun, from what little I've been told, just didn't look as good.
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Old May 26, 2012, 07:50 PM   #15
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Its a testimony to the MG 42 design that variants are used by armies of the world today. The M1919 simply went away.
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Old May 26, 2012, 07:53 PM   #16
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Thanks for all the great comments everyone, really am enjoying the feedback.
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Old May 26, 2012, 08:13 PM   #17
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Its a testimony to the MG 42 design that variants are used by armies of the world today. The M1919 simply went away.
+1. Overall, I personally think the MG 42 was the best machine gun of the whole war. While some of them may have did 1 or 2 things better, overall, it was the best.

The Germans were leading the technology race overall at the time. We are lucky that the Germans made so many mistakes strategically or they could have easily accomplished more than they did.
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Old May 26, 2012, 09:14 PM   #18
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Well I do agree that the mg42 In variants (Mg3) are still in use by many militaries Today..

The m1919a4 is still in use also, Portugal and the French navy come to mind..

But the design of the M1919a4 Is still being used by its bigger Sister Ma Duce..

And the US Military has spent a fortune trying to replace the M2 50 cal for years and yet she still goes strong after 90 years
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Old May 27, 2012, 05:07 PM   #19
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Quote:
But the design of the M1919a4 Is still being used by its bigger Sister Ma Duce..
Funny thought, MG42 scaled up to take 50 BMG with an MG42 rate of fire, then give it to infantry units.
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Old May 27, 2012, 08:34 PM   #20
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Wow that is a scary thought for the ammo bearers

@ 1200 rounds per min with 100 linked 50 cal rounds weighing in at a Hefty 35 pounds,,

A 30 second burst would use up 210 pounds of cartridges

Each Second would eat up 7 pounds of cartridges

As per cost... @ 3 dollars a bullet that is $60 a second


Of course you are blowing the living snot out of the Target down range
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Old May 27, 2012, 09:47 PM   #21
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70+ years later it is pretty easy to see that the German MGs (34 and 42) were better weapons than the US machine guns.

But I wouldn't want to be told that before I had to go off to fight against them
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Old May 30, 2012, 09:40 AM   #22
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Most of the leaders of WWII in Europe and America had been through WWI, where the machine gun had dominated the battlefield. Yet the development of machine guns went in different directions in different places. THe MG34 and MG42 were only one countries idea of the best and there is no doubt they influenced later developments, especially the MG42. They both were produced at the same time, by the way, because the MG34 worked better in some applications.

Although the Germans used similiar light machine guns before the MG34 was adopted, they basically started from scratch because of their weapons restrictions. Everyone else carried on with the same heavy machine gun they had in the Great War, although they all also adopted a light machine gun. The thing the Germans did that was different was to use the same gun for both a heavy and a light role, whether or not it had any real advantage. However, they apparently believed in a higher rate of fire and the 7.62NATO machine gun as made in West Germany was advertisied with that as a desirable feature. But good fire discipline is necessary.

One of the disadvantages of the Browning and even the later FN machine guns, I've been told, is the necessity of setting headspace. I don't think that's required on the MG42. It is a small thing but both my father and my son mentioned it, so it must be a source of minor irritation to the user.

The MG42 was the inspiration for the M60 but from what I've read, more of the design features came from other weapons. Anyway, it always seemed to me that the designers failed in some respects. For instance, it doesn't so much have a quick change barrel as it seems to be a take-down model. At least on the ones in use when I was in (and we only had two), the bipod was attached to the barrel.

One could hardly say the MG42 made anything else obsolete and most squad automatics and light machine guns in use during WWII were still in use 30 years later and even later for some guns. Of course, some armies seem to skip generations of arms design. In the Swedish army, the M1903 FN in 9mm Browning Long was only finally replaced by the--wait for it--Glock. Technically, it was supposed to have been replaced by another pistol but it didn't seem to have the service life that it should have.
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Old May 30, 2012, 10:56 AM   #23
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Considering the Army Air Corps contribution in WWII, I'd consider the M2
was the machine gun that one the war. Putting .50 cal in aircraft was absolutely brilliant. You can kill anything with a .50 cal. And we still do.
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Old May 30, 2012, 01:56 PM   #24
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The P47 Thunderbolt was the best platform in the war, though the P51 generally overshadows it. The 8 .50 calls in the wings, with its incredible diving capability made it the king of the air when it came to ground support.
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Old May 30, 2012, 02:24 PM   #25
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What, no love for the venerable BAR?
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