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Old May 22, 2012, 12:33 PM   #1
FrontSight
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And THIS is why high capacity magazines are needed!

And THIS is why high capacity magazines are needed!!!


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...st_read_module




Tuesday, May 22 2012

Father, 56, fighting for life after being stabbed trying to shield dying son from frenzied attack by hoodie gang outside pub after Chelsea match

• 20 hooded youths stormed pub with knives 'like a pack of wolves'
• Bernard Fitzpatrick is critical after acting as a human shield when son Luke, 25, was dragged away then stabbed to death in the street
• Gang attacked after Champions League final in scenes 'like something out of a horror film'
• Youths were known troublemakers - 'at 17 why have they got knives? it's disgusting' says one witness
• 'He had never done a bad thing in his life but he can’t even go to the pub with his dad and have a pint without getting murdered', says friend
• 'Bad things happen to good people. None of the scumbags who did this could ever live up to our friend.'

By Chris Hanlon
PUBLISHED: 13:24 EST, 21 May 2012 | UPDATED: 11:41 EST, 22 May 2012
• Comments (539)


Senseless: 'True gent' Luke Fitzpatrick was stabbed to death after a hooded gang stormed a north london pub on Saturday
A gang of 20 hooded youths stormed a pub after the Champions League final before dragging away a 25-year old man and stabbing him to death in scenes 'like a horror film', friends said today.
'True gent' Luke Fitzpatrick was killed and his father Bernard, who threw himself on top of his son in a desperate attempt to shield him, remains in a critical condition in hospital after being stabbed four times.
The pair were attacked when a gang armed with bats and knives stormed the north London pub after father and son had watched Chelsea win the cup together at on Saturday.
A forensic tent remained at the scene of the tragedy just yards from the pub near his Dollis Hill home.
A female friend, 22, who asked not be named, said: 'Luke was one of the nicest guys around, always looking after people, he actually cared about people, a really nice, funny guy.
'The amount of flowers that are here just shows how loved he was, this has ruined this community.
'I was there on Saturday and it was like something out of a horror film.
'There were about 20 young black guys all with their hoods up armed with sticks and bats and knives. They just ran in the pub and started trying to attack people.
'It was really frightening. But it should not have happened to Luke, it shouldn’t have happened to anyone, but he was a complete innocent.'
His mother Constance, 56, and brother Ryan, 21, were in Majorca and had to rush home.


Oooooh, England, how far you have fallen!!! More at the link...
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Old May 22, 2012, 01:27 PM   #2
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Quote:
And THIS is why high capacity magazines are needed!!!
Let's review for a moment. The regular citizenry in Britain has no second amendment rights, therefore no guns. How exactly would a magazine have helped?

Further, what is a "high-capacity" magazine? Taking the basic example of the Glock 17, which holds 17 rounds, it seems as if that would be a normal capacity magazine.

Would I need 17 rounds? Probably not. These thugs are basically cowards and pick on unarmed people. I would submit that one guy with a revolver could have turned them away. The crowd mentality only works if you're not the guy in front getting shot.

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Oooooh, England, how far you have fallen!!!
Concur.
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Old May 22, 2012, 01:50 PM   #3
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Oh, I didn't mean for them, specifically.

I meant it as a real-world example to dispel the antis' b.s. argument of "You don't need the ability to be able to shoot more than a few rounds to defend yourself...a few rounds is all you should be allowed to be able to shoot and anything more is an unreasonable request and goes against common sense."

This proves that there are indeed times when you may be attacked by a very large group, instantly, and need to be able to fire more than "a few rounds" in order to effectively defend yourself.

The fact is that they were attacked by almost 2 dozen thugs...but it is only a guess that all of them would have stopped attacking after a shot or two was fired in defense. Mobs are unpredictible; some may have tried to continue the attack.

It is not a fantasy; it really does happen, and with terrifying speed and horrible results.
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Old May 22, 2012, 02:19 PM   #4
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This really isn't proof of anything, especially anything related to a device that wasn't even present, say nothing of used in any quantity at all.

Yesterday, I was fishing in a small pond. I hooked this neat, mid-sized carp. Maybe 18 inches. I was messing around with him near the shore, waiting for my uncle to go get a bucket, when he broke the line.

Just goes to show you why you need an aerator in your live well.... right?

Well, maybe hi-cap mags are useful and maybe you do need an aerator in your live well, but neither scenario has any relation to the claim being made.
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Old May 22, 2012, 02:25 PM   #5
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Okay, suppose the Brits allowed handguns. Let's see, if 20 guys with Glocks of their own and high capacity mags come after you and all you have is one Glock and a couple of reloads, well, I suppose you'd better be quick. Really quick.

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Old May 22, 2012, 02:46 PM   #6
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OK...I guess you guys would choose a 5 shot revolver in this situation, rather than a 15 round semi-auto.
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Old May 22, 2012, 02:49 PM   #7
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Jeez, gents, give the OP a break. Semantics and legal aside, if I were armed, in position, and inclined to help I would rather have a weapon capable of holding more than a John Browning single-stack's worth.

Of course, given the situation and the laws of the land, this is not possible. Still, it stirs the blood to hear of things like this.
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Old May 22, 2012, 02:54 PM   #8
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One of the reasons I carry an auto over a revolver. I agree with the OP.
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Old May 22, 2012, 02:56 PM   #9
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Darn shame how the brits disarmed themselves. But I have no empathy for them. I have English relatives who all to person look down their collective noses at their uncouth colonial cousins...and literally make no bones about how barbaric we are, as individuals and a nation, allow our citizenry to own ghastly guns.
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I think that one of the notions common to the anti-gunner is the idea that being a victim is 'noble'; as if it is better to be noble in your suffering than disruptive in your own defense.
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Old May 22, 2012, 03:02 PM   #10
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Honestly, this is why people need to learn how to find and use improvised weapons. As humans we've been doing this for thousands of years, other animals do it too. Granted, drinking isn't going to help you think clearly, but shooting after a few isn't smart either. It sure sucks for those who were hurt though, undeserved...

Such incidents make knives seem so much worse, and it's a pity they aren't even allowed to carry such tools in the first place. But criminals will do as they please...

In this scenario, any weapon is going to help. Guns, sticks, sword and shield, anything. But the issue I'm looking at is that when there are 20, and you have the only gun, you can be easily over whelmed. Worst case scenario, I run out and they swarm me, out of bullets they can't shoot me. Not going to rely on that, just a thought.
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Old May 22, 2012, 03:10 PM   #11
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It's not a matter of what I might prefer or if I might be able to make a good argument for that preference, it's simply that the premise "high-cap magazines are needed" is not supported by the example given.

What would be needed to make a reasoned argument would be two, similar situations wherein the good guy lost in one while using low-cap magazines but prevailed in the other, using high-cap magazines. There would still be much left to assumption, too many variables for a real conclusion, but at least we could see the rationale for the argument.

In the scenario in the OP, we don't know what difference, if any, a firearm of ANY kind might have made. Low-cap, high-cap, 9mm, 45acp? He can we know?

IF there had been a firearm and IF it were in the hands of the right guy and IF he had been able to employ it successfully and IF the bad guys didn't give up or run at the first shot and IF they continued to fight after shots were fired and IF...

What does it prove?
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Old May 22, 2012, 03:20 PM   #12
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Quote:
What does it prove?
It proves that there are times when people are attacked by multiple aggressors; that it is not a fantasy; it is a reality. The anti's main argument is that high capacity mags are not needed for self defense, and are only useful for attacking innocent crowds. This proves their argument is wrong.

It also proves that he & his dad, together, would have had enough ammo to shoot each attacker at least once, without reloading.

It also proves that he & his dad, together, would not have had enough ammo to shoot each attacker at least once, without reloading.

Do we prepare for what will only definitely happpen, or do we prepare for what could possibly happen, to the best of our planning? I choose the latter...
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Old May 22, 2012, 03:22 PM   #13
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Very similar incident just took place near me. 15 masked men stormed a restaurant with baseball bats and police batons and attacked the patrons. They were supposedly targeting a white power group that was eating there, but either way, there were civilians in there too that got hurt.

My buddy and I both agreed that if we had concealed carry, those guys would have thought twice, and the victims would have a lot more options.
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Old May 22, 2012, 03:37 PM   #14
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Yes, well, I've had this discussion a good many times here on TFL so this will be my last post in this thread.

What we prepare for, if we're honest, are those things within our sphere of interest.

We, here, are interested in firearms and self defense, so we prepare to defend ourselves and we make choices and we can't imagine how others don't and how naive they are who don't, and how paranoid those are who prepare more than do we.

I used to be friends with a guy who did cone racing (can't remember the name of the organization). He had roll cages, racing seats and 5-pt racing harnesses in his STREET cars. He couldn't believe none of he rest of his friends cared about doing the same. He would make endless arguments about driving being the most dangerous thing we ever do, how likely we are to die in a crash.... Yada Yada Yada. We didn't care because we weren't "into" cars, but he was right. If anything ever kills me besides being old, it's more likely than anything else to be a car crash and there's a very good chance that his racing seats, roll cage and 5-pt harness would have saved me.

We carry guns because it's what we're into. We strategize and agonize and argue over caliber, capacity, reloads, carry methods.... Yada Yada Yada... And it's all good, because we can. This is America. Have at it.

But the example still isn't related to and doesn't support the assumption.
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Old May 22, 2012, 03:42 PM   #15
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That's why my M9 has a 40 round mag when I'm in the car. If I'm ever carjacked and they ask why I shot him 40 times; I can reply that's all the bullets that I had.
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Old May 22, 2012, 03:44 PM   #16
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Quote. Darn shame how the brits disarmed themselves. But I have no empathy for them. I have English relatives who all to person look down their collective noses at their uncouth colonial cousins...and literally make no bones about how barbaric we are, as individuals and a nation, allow our citizenry to own ghastly guns.
========================================================

That's a bit of a sweeping statement. I live in n Ireland which is part of the UK and have firearms and enjoy shooting. Their are also lots of other people (Brits) in the rest of the UK that have firearms and enjoy shooting. PS. I would agree with the original poster that you are better with extra ammo than not enough.
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Old May 22, 2012, 03:55 PM   #17
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We carry guns because it's what we're into. We strategize and agonize and argue over caliber, capacity, reloads, carry methods.... Yada Yada Yada... And it's all good, because we can. This is America. Have at it.

But the example still isn't related to and doesn't support the assumption.
Well, ok, let's look at this a different way, then, maybe...

If this incident does not support the need for high capacity mags, then what argument would you raise instead to counter the Anti's claims that high capacity mags should be outlawed because they are not needed for self defense?
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Old May 22, 2012, 04:00 PM   #18
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That's a bit of a sweeping statement.

So was the passage of the Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997, which, ironically, did not extend to Northern Ireland where I see you are posting from. This legislation virtually banned all handgun ownership in the UK.
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I think that one of the notions common to the anti-gunner is the idea that being a victim is 'noble'; as if it is better to be noble in your suffering than disruptive in your own defense.
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Old May 22, 2012, 04:12 PM   #19
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If this incident does not support the need for high capacity mags, then what argument would you raise instead to counter the Anti's claims that high capacity mags should be outlawed because they are not needed for self defense?
I wouldn't.

The 2A does not say a word about self defense. So when you think about it the 2A almost requires larger capacity magazines, similar to what military units carry. I would not limit there however.
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Old May 22, 2012, 04:13 PM   #20
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QUOTE. So was the passage of the Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997, which, ironically, did not extend to Northern Ireland where I see you are posting from. This legislation virtually banned all handgun ownership in the UK.

True but you said ___allow our citizenry to own ghastly guns. As i said their are a lot of gun owners in the UK that enjoy shooting. Who would look at the gun laws in the USA with envy rather than looking down their noses at them. PS. Why do you say ironically that handgun ban did not apply to N Ireland. The problem here was never law abiding citizens with firearms but more criminals with illegal firearms.
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Old May 22, 2012, 04:17 PM   #21
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That is actually a good point, MTT TL.

But I've found that sometimes it helps to point out real life cases in countering arguments, rather than the principles that you, I, and others who support the 2nd understand the constitution to have been founded upon...

Then again, no amount of logic or real life examples ever seems to get through to the anti's...
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Old May 22, 2012, 04:20 PM   #22
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True but you said ___allow our citizenry to own ghastly guns.
Ummm...no. I never said that. I was quoting one of my English uncles, who said those very words, verbatim. My other adult English relatives have all said virtually the same as well.

There is no denying the fact that most citizens in the UK can not legally own or keep a handgun at home or legally carry a firearm for self protection. Owning a handgun that must be locked up at an authorized shooting range is NOT, in my opinion, true gun ownership.
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I think that one of the notions common to the anti-gunner is the idea that being a victim is 'noble'; as if it is better to be noble in your suffering than disruptive in your own defense.
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Old May 22, 2012, 04:20 PM   #23
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Then again, no amount of logic or real life examples ever seems to get through to the anti's...
Exactly. The lights are on but no one is home is what I see too often.
Quote:
The problem here was never law abiding citizens with firearms but more criminals with illegal firearms.
Same here.
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Old May 22, 2012, 05:40 PM   #24
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Skadoosh - Yep, gun laws in the UK are extremely tight and illiberal and the opposite end of the scale from those in the USA. I think we can all agree on that. However, to imply that just because your uncle etc here in England looks down his nose at Americans because of the different ways our societies approach firearms, all British people do, most definitely is 'a bit of a sweeping statement'.

Personally, I feel like the two often peoples miss one another a bit here. British people are often uncomfortable with the American relationship with guns (I for one, am not, but that is because I am a shooter and 'get' guns), because it is completely alien to our own. Some Americans then assume this is some sort of superiority complex and that all British people are ignorant sheeple who think they are better than everyone else while actually living in a little bubble in which they take no personal responsibility for their own personal safety. Guns just have never been ubiquitous in British society, and when legally held firearms were more common, they did not serve as a societal symbol of freedom and responsible individuality and all the things they do for many people in the USA, beyond just being tools.

Our real problem is our insane self defence laws . . . they are quite mad. When it comes down to it, sit down with your average British person and ask how they feel about protecting the people who are important to them and you are going to get the same answers, broadly, as if you are talking to an American. Guns may feature less in the conversation because for better or worse, they are just not a normal thing in British society. We really are not that different.

Sorry, went off on one a bit there and haven't been anywhere near to trying to contribute to the question . . . Tragic gang attacks happen, unfortunately. In any society where it is possible for people to carry guns to protect themselves, it is possible for those 20 scumbag thugs to carry too . . . the outcome might be different, but it might not. Maybe another half a dozen patrons in the pub would have been hit in the crossfire.

I get the argument that that doesn't matter, regardless people should have the chance to protect themselves (because yes, maybe being armed would have saved them).

Still, high cap mags ain't going to save you if you get attacked by a gang who wants to kill you, either they are motivated to do it and fight and kill you anyway, or they flee when you shoot back. I feel that will happen whatever you are armed with (within reason) . . . if they are prepared to do what it takes you die whether you are armed with the j-frame or the glock with the 33rd mag . . . likewise if they are not prepared to do what it takes, either can save your life. You can't argue with numbers, 20 vs 2 is what it is.
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Old May 22, 2012, 05:51 PM   #25
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I dont think anyone, bar none could walk away from 20vs2 without some scars. Its sad ro hear that things like this happen. But you cant drink and carry either though... Still makes you think. I know I wouldnt have been able to squeeze off 20 rounds before being taken down.
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