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Old May 22, 2012, 10:15 AM   #1
ClemBert
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Has anyone purchased this black powder storage box?

I'm thinking about purchasing this Steel Powder Storage Box.

From the description it would appear that the purchaser must line the box with 1/4" plywood. I'm curious to know if one must line the bottom and sides of the box with plywood as well as the top of the box?


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Old May 22, 2012, 11:13 AM   #2
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I would think it would have to be lined all the way. Why do you need it?
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Old May 22, 2012, 11:28 AM   #3
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Your call !!!

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Has anyone purchased this black powder storage box?
I have not and have never really had a reason to do so. The only folks that I have know to be concerned, are some reloading dealers that I buy from. ..

Certainly your call but I'd rather use those bucks on a new M/L. It's always hard to go against anything that is done, in the name of safety and love ...

Be Safe !!!
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Old May 22, 2012, 12:27 PM   #4
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"Need it"? I'm haven't decided if I need it or not. In my case I'm considering it because I would think it would be the prudent thing to do....primarily from the point of home owner's insurance. I admit I do not know the specifics under which you would be screwed if your house burned down and no precautions were taken. Clearly, this is not a fire proof box. It is however more protection than stacking cans of power under your bed.

Before anyone jumps in and wants to have a debate about what temperature a house fire gets to or how a metal box is like a bomb in a fire I want to head you off at the pass and let you know that that isn't the purpose of this thread.

For $200 it might be worth a look even though "technically I'm not required" to have such a box. What are your thoughts with regard to what is required by the BATF, your insurance company, or your state, county, or city when it comes to storing powder......????
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Old May 22, 2012, 12:52 PM   #5
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Your money and still your call !!!

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What are your thoughts with regard to what is required by the BATF, your insurance company, or your state, county, or city when it comes to storing powder......????
Two weeks ago, there was a house fire in our town. During the fire, there were three clear, loud explosions. Later, it was determined that they came from the three propane tanks, some on grills, that were stored inside the garage. There are clear warnings on these grill about not storing indoor. The state, city and BATF, had not input and the insurance will cover the loss. I suggest your questions and concerns might be better addressed by your insurance company. ...

By the way, I do store some ammo, in a 20MM ammo box, in my garage ...

Be Safe !!!
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Old May 22, 2012, 01:18 PM   #6
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Yeah, I have two 40lb propane tanks in the garage for the grill. In addition, I have 12 small Coleman type propane canisters in the garage. It truly is a nightmare scenario to have to tell the fire department that you have X-number cans of powder and/or 1000's of rounds of cartridges in the house as your house burns. I'm picturing a complete evacuation of the neighborhood and becoming a pariah after such an incident.

Fortunately my house is constructed with concrete block which only leaves a few interior wood framed walls and the trusses on top.
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Old May 22, 2012, 01:27 PM   #7
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That looks like a nice powder magazine... the internal wood is naturally to make it static spark-proof. Typical magazine construction. You can do the same thing with any of the sheet-steel job-site toolboxes too. Makes a nice safe spot for everything. These are not designed to do anything but keep powder safe from tampering, and from static discharge ignition. They are specifically designed to NOT contain the blast from a powder ignition event. No sense making fragments out of a box that has become a pressure vessel. Powder in one and caps in another. No different than storing dynamite and blasting caps. Cap boxes can be made with a 20mm ammo can lined with wood, BTW... they work fine.

Glad to see you here, Clem... have a little project here that you inspired: Some .460 S&W brass, BP, and a Walker: Perfect Together. Need to send the cylinder out for reaming.


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Old May 22, 2012, 01:29 PM   #8
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You have our attention !!!

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I'm picturing a complete evacuation of the neighborhood and becoming a pariah after such an incident
Oh, you are not alone as there are a lot of folks reading your post and taking it to heart !!! ....

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Old May 22, 2012, 02:21 PM   #9
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A couple of guys here in town that used to do "remanufacturing" of ammo had two of those. Fortunately, they never had to serve their purpose (other than to securely store the powder), but they did satisfy the law regarding powder storage.

As far as insurance goes, I've talked to my agent and he said pointed out the section in my policy that says something along the lines of as long as the amount of ammunition, gunpowder and related supplies isn't in violation of the law, it's allowed. Of course, your policy may vary.

I'd also be more concerned with the LP gas bottles in my garage. And maybe the can of gas for the lawn mower. Still, if it gives you peace of mind, it's probably worth the money.
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Old May 22, 2012, 07:22 PM   #10
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I'm a former firefighter and as the OP stated, this thread could take off in a lot of different directions. Trust me, there was never a house fire or a structure fire that I went to that these things were not thought of and looked out for - either by questioning the owner or if no one was present, by careful observation as you entered the structure to fight the fire.

As stated, these containers are not designed to contain an explosion - they are for security. Personally, I have always stored my powder in an outbuilding. I live in a rural area. For years, I kept it stored on a shelf and when I was on the FD, it was known that I had it if there was ever a fire. In the last couple of years, I have gone to storing it in a small heavy wooden box that can be securely locked. Actually, it is more like an antique type tool chest. The box is not marked as to the contents. This is more for my peace of mind should my building ever be broken in to. Yes, they could break in to the chest or even carry the chest away - but at least I have tried to secure it. If someone steals it . . . . well, sometimes you just can't fix stupid.

If I remember correctly, there are some BATF requirements as to dealer storage and also as to the quantity that an individual may possess - but, I may be wrong on that. If a person, like the OP feels a greater "peace of mind" in regards to storing their powder in one of these . . . more power to 'em. I don't personally feel there is a "right or wrong".

As far as "security" - i few these about like I do "gun safes". So many folks buy expensive "gun safes" thinking that they are protected from theft if they store their guns in one (or from fire as well - but, that all depends upon the "fire rating" of the safe). Unless that say e is securely bolted to a steel beam, cement floor, etc. - it is a false sense of security. Yeah, safes may be heavy, but the can be easily moved by someone who knows how to do it.

What it all boils down to . . . regardless of if it is the storage of gun powder, primers, ammunition or propane tanks is "common sense". To put it in perspective that a "muzzle loader shooter" can relate to . . . black powder comes in 1 pound cans. The service load of a Civil War 10 pound cannon (Parrott or Ordinance Rifle) was 1 pound of black powder. That was enough to send a 10 pound projectile a mile and a quarter. That's a lot of potential energy stored in that 1 pound can - so use common sense in where and how your store it. The same goes for your full powder horn.
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Old May 23, 2012, 12:15 AM   #11
Sure Shot Mc Gee
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Has anyone purchased this black powder storage box?

Quote:
I'm curious to know if one must line the bottom and sides of the box with plywood as well as the top of the box?
I would think (yes.) Most powder cabinets or chests that I've seen were made almost entirely out of wood with a lock hasp on there door or lid. I'm pretty sure the idea behind a powder cabinet was not to contain a explosion if one were to take place. A chest or cabinet being made of wood, plywood, chipboard, definitely helps to control static electricity too.
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Old May 23, 2012, 05:36 AM   #12
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I don't understand all the concern about static electricity. Static electricity wont set off bp or smokeless.
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Old May 23, 2012, 06:18 AM   #13
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Security: you can't make it impossible for someone to steal it, you can only make it more difficult.

Wood vs. metal: Neither should be designed to contain an explosion. A metal box should be designed to come apart at the seams, reducing the number of pieces of flying metal. Wood becomes flying splinters, but minimizes condensation contamination and insulates against temperature changes better. Best answer: both - metal box lined with wood.

Static electricity: Hawg's right, unless the powder is contaminated with some resistive material that would heat up when exposed to static electricity.
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Old May 23, 2012, 08:41 AM   #14
ClemBert
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I take it that for those who are required to have BP locked up in a box per the BATF regulations don't have to have it lined with anything other than metal?

The box outlined in the OP has "Spark Proof Baked on Powder Coating" for metal on metal sparks.
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Old May 23, 2012, 01:28 PM   #15
Pahoo
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Just when you thought, it couldn't happen !!

Quote:
If I remember correctly, there are some BATF requirements as to dealer storage and also as to the quantity that an individual may possess - but, I may be wrong on that. If a person, like the OP feels a greater "peace of mind" in regards to storing their powder in one of these . . . more power to 'em.
One of my powder dealers, tells me that he has to have an outside bunker to store BP. When at the shows, he keeps all his BP, in his panel truck and only displays empty containers. If you buy a can, he has to go outside to get your order. I do know that he is only following a regulation but do not know under whose mandate. I'll have to ask him, next time I see him. ....

Quote:
I don't understand all the concern about static electricity. Static electricity wont set off bp or smokeless.
For the most part, this is true but as we all know, static electricity is and "electrical" spark. So the concern is just how much of a spark does it take to set it off. Then there are what I call, clean and dirty sparks. Static is mostly clean and "should not" pose a problem. Flint, cap and other sources, produce a dirty spark that will set it off. I've eaten crow all too often shen i said it couldn't happen. ......

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Old May 23, 2012, 01:47 PM   #16
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Check this out.

http://youtu.be/-5Z5yAeO3dw
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Old May 23, 2012, 03:16 PM   #17
Hardcase
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Here are a couple of links that delve into the regulations for storing black powder, courtesy of the ATF and the GPO.

http://www.atf.gov/explosives/how-to...uirements.html

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...3.5.11&idno=27

The rules apply to licensees - not to the end user. I suppose, though, that if you've got more than 50 pounds of black powder sitting around, you might raise a governmental eyebrow or two.

As anecdotal evidence, when I visited Buffalo Arms, all of their black powder was in type 2 magazines - wood-lined shipping containers, like the ones that the big ships carry. If I recall correctly, they were a pretty fair distance from the building and from each other - something like 100 feet or so.

As somebody mentioned above, it doesn't appear that the function of the magazine is to contain an explosion, but, rather, to prevent an explosion from happening. And, of course, to keep the contents from being stolen.
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Old May 23, 2012, 03:52 PM   #18
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Most Fire Marshals (yours may differ) use the codes and standards of the National Fire Protection Assoc (NFPA) for powder storage requirements. And, the NFPA standards are the ones typically referenced in the powder manufacturers' literature. The standards are different for smokeless and black powder. The linked site, to your box, makes no reference to black powder storage.

From the NFPA 495-41 & 42, 2010 Edition:

Chapter 14 Small Arms Ammunition and Primers, Smokeless Propellants, and Black Powder Propellants

14.4 Black Powder

14.4.3
Black Powder intended for personal use in quantities not exceeding 9.1 kg (20 lb) shall be permitted to be stored in residences where kept in the original containers and stored in a wooden box or cabinet having walls of at least a 25.4 mm (1 in.) nominal thickness.

Last edited by zippy13; May 23, 2012 at 05:32 PM.
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Old May 23, 2012, 04:47 PM   #19
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Anyone who has ever handled ammunition aboard ship in the magazines knows how anal the Navy is about non-sparking this, and non-sparking that, and bronze non-sparking tools, anti static shoes, etc. etc.. ad nauseum.

The wood liners of storage magazines is part and parcel of the "non sparking" mentality. That's why the box is supposed to be lined with wood. Steel = bad.


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Old May 23, 2012, 05:46 PM   #20
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Quote:
The wood liners of storage magazines is part and parcel of the "non sparking" mentality. That's why the box is supposed to be lined with wood. Steel = bad.
IINM, wood isn't used in powder storage box construction because it's non-sparking, but because of it's insulating properties. Not only will steel spark, it has a high thermal conductivity.

In reality, the NFPA standards don't have any requirements, beyond maintaining the original containers, for storing up to 20 lbs of smokeless powder in residences. So, you can keep limited smokeless anywhere you want.

The standards for shipping differ from those for storage. I know of cases where gun shops have kept their powder in an on-site trailer because of less restrictive transportation standards. It doesn't come under the jurisdiction of the local Fire Marshal until it's removed from the transport vehicle to a building.
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Old June 5, 2012, 11:01 AM   #21
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I keep all my loading powders in a wooden cabinet, with a pad lock on it. This is done to keep my grandkids out of it, and for no other reason.

Nothing is going to keep a thief from taking what he wants , if he wants it bad enough. I worry more about the heat and cold difference, along with the humidity causing moisture in my powders than I do about Fires or a thief.
I keep my cabinet in an air conditioned and heated breeze-way, between my house and garage along with all my loading equipment, to keep it dry.

I would think the cabinet should be totally wood, since it would be less likely to draw moisture. As far as exploding powder or loaded ammo, in a fire, I would be far more worried about that can of gas I keep in the garage for the lawn mower, or the solvents in my wood shop, than I would any powder or ammo I had stored, unless you have enough stored to make such an explosion, in which case I would think you have to much stored.
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Old June 5, 2012, 11:47 AM   #22
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The gunshop where I buy my Goex has that exact box that they keep their BP in.

T6 a/k/a Chick
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Old June 5, 2012, 12:17 PM   #23
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I went ahead and bought the box. I got it delivered for $208.99. It looks like the price is going up to $225 according to their website. I lined it myself with some scrap plywood I have leftover from making hurricane shutters.

Cabelas has the same box for $329.99 plus another $49.99 for the casters plus more for shipping.

I have a lot more powder on hand than most folks on this forum. Even though it seems like overkill I feel better about knowing it is stored properly with no issues if the BATF or local officials want to do an inspection.
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Old June 5, 2012, 03:48 PM   #24
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When my folks moved out of their house in Boise, my dad found about half a pound of black powder in a pipe tobacco can in his shop. He remembered that his dad had that can of powder in his shop.

It made it through at least 60 years of high desert searing heat and bitter cold (maybe more...it might have been my great-grandfather's) - and still worked just fine. Neither shop ever burned down, either. In fact, if it belonged to my great-grandfather, it probably went through the US Mail when he mailed all of his guns in a big old crate from Jamestown, ND to Caldwell, ID just after World War II.

I absolutely do not recommend a pipe tobacco can in an uninsulated shop full of metal- and woodworking tools...it's just an anecdote. My powder is on the top shelf of the closet in a back bedroom where I do my reloading. It's away from prying eyes and out of reach of the occasional miniature person.
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