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Old May 22, 2012, 10:18 AM   #51
BlueTrain
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No offense to anyone either but just how many have been stopped at a roadblock? I'm not saying the police never set up roadblocks when there are desperados at large (as opposed to roadblocks just to prevent entry) but I've never seen one and I've been on the road for a long time. I realize I'm avoiding the current issue in the thread but sometimes I think there is a tendency to suggest that certain things are commonplace when they aren't. That happens on the other side of the aisle, too.

I never saw a roadblock in two years of being in Germany either but that wasn't Sweden.

As far as being stopped by the police on a public highway, it seems there are more and more private highways, so the problem may go away.
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Old May 22, 2012, 10:24 AM   #52
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I've been stopped at a dui roadblock... and recieved multiable equipement violations. Despite not having one drink that night (or that whole week and probably month for that matter)

Its just a big money making joke.
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Old May 22, 2012, 10:31 AM   #53
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I am, after all, the resident cynic
There are more cynics in this thread and on this board, Bluetrain,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Quote:
I'm not sure the federal government has no rights, however, which may be outside of the topic. It certainly has powers.
IMO, that's directly on-topic in a discussion of Europe vs. America

The Rule of Law was the primary goal of the founders. Power vested in a mechanical construct can achieve that. Without rights, government becomes a complex tool that can operate in harmony with natural law, if it is constructed so that its function ensures the rights of individuals. It’s like a machine, with no benevolence or malevolence.
Giving rights to the federal government allows it to rule by those rights. Rule of Law is exchanged for Rule by Decree. Whether it is by divine right of a king, or the tyranny of the majority, rule by decree degenerates to totalitarianism. Patchworking rights into government, the best you could hope for is building a man-like creature rather than a machine.
The answer my friend is not a balance of power between government and the people, but a separation of the genesis of their powers. Rights, as a generator of power, must reside solely with the people. The government gets only the power it needs to carry out its function, through the conduit of consent of the governed.

The difference between Europe and America is that Europe never abandoned Rule by Decree. They’ve always traded one form of decree for another. Governance of the people is done by government, whereas in America, the governance of many things are left as powers of the people.
imo... Democratization of our government has led to it acting as if it had rights. Mary Shelley would be proud.
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Old May 22, 2012, 10:34 AM   #54
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Bluetrain, roadblocks are common, often they announce the weekends in advertisements saying XYZ will be setting up sobriety checkpoints. 4th of July, Memorial day, etc. I know an intersection where it happens every few months or so Saturday mornings. They are far from uncommon....do you drive? Ridiculous.
Try Lawrenceville Georgia after 10pm as well for common weekly checkpoints.

I think I'm good for about 2/3 a year for the last 15 years.
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Old May 22, 2012, 11:25 AM   #55
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I do know of one place where the police used to hang out by the side of the road where the traffic always slowed down. They'd check (I assume) registration tags and inspection stickers. But they're not there anymore because the road has been changed--and now there's nowhere to pull over if you have a flat, either. But the expression "speed trap" has been around as long as "coffin nail." In other words, it hasn't changed but that's only with regards to driving.

Oh, Animal! I don't think I agree with all that you say, as far as I understand it. Governments have powers. That's what they operate with. The original conflict they, the founding fathers, struggled with, I think, was over how much power the federal government should have. Under the confederation, it didn't have enough. It basically had to operate at the whim of state governments, in a manner of speaking. I'm really not so sure the individual rights of man (no women and only some men) was operating at a practical level yet.

None of this came out of a void or was handed to someone by the Lady in the Lake. European government evolved and in time, a new branch grew, which is American government, all through the Americas. They all had European roots to be sure but they turned out differently. You would probably say that all the American revolutions north and south, except in Canada, where there was none, had their inspirations from ours.

At one time even kings and emporers were elected, although voting was somewhat restricted. Voting is still restricted in places. The divine right of kings is an idea that only came to be at around the time my own ancestors came to Virginia. Things have never been exactly static. But I think the rule of law was assumed. Even kings have to obey the law and rare was the king who crowned himself. Napoleon comes to mind.

If I may paraphrase another cynic, the difference between one place and another is that in one place the government tells the corporations what to do. But here, the corporations tell the government what to do.
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Old May 22, 2012, 11:48 AM   #56
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Not so long ago here it was normal to get stopped every day or. Falling to stop could and get some people shot.
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Old May 22, 2012, 12:12 PM   #57
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A few people say that here in America you can't be stopped and asked for driving papers without proboble cause. Yet it happens commonly at checkpoints.
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Old May 22, 2012, 12:21 PM   #58
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Bluetrain, I look at the Declaration of Independence as the beginning of America, The Articles of Confederation as it’s first attempt to put the ideals of the Declaration into practice, and the Constitution as the second.

And no, the ideals didn’t come out of a vacuum. They came from malcontent philosophers in Europe during the early Age of Enlightenment. They largely failed at home, but their "moral science" was sound. America merely had a few engineers able to put the science into practice.

Divine right of kings (even the divinity of kings) is referenced in many ancient texts. It’s pretty much as old as history itself.

It shouldn’t matter who tells the government what to do, because the government should have no power to enforce the will of any entity over the rights of another. The government can only do that, through it having a right to choose one as superior to the other. This should go for any special interest group or individual, not just corporations.

The ideal is pretty, then again I find machinery to be beautiful sometimes. What I find ugliest is good intentions put into practice at the expense of others. The idea of a benevolent government, never leads to anything but ugliness, imo.
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Old May 22, 2012, 12:35 PM   #59
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A few people say that here in America you can't be stopped and asked for driving papers without proboble cause. Yet it happens commonly at checkpoints.
Personally, I object to checkpoints, but SCOTUS has decided they’re ok. There was a previous decision that they were not ok … if I remember correctly.
Unless mistaken, the current opinion hinges on utility and the use of the road granted as a privilege granted by the state, rather than an immunity guaranteed by the Constitution.

I'm sure someone will correct me presently ...
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Old May 22, 2012, 01:12 PM   #60
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Well, Mr Animal, any time in any form of government, democracy included, not everyone is going to have their way and some will be very upset at that. It comes with the territory but is still the root cause of many problems.

Personally, I think America started in 1607. Spain thinks it started earlier in the New World, but in the present boundaries of the country, just about the same time, only further west. Massachusetts thinks it started later. Then there's the Indian point of view.
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Old May 22, 2012, 02:18 PM   #61
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Rights are not subject to governments goodwill, they are absolutes that exist even if a government refuses to recognize them, they are inherent and natural and have existed from the beginning.

As a nation we seem to allow a ever greater encroachments on our rights as society seeks security over freedom... One day the constitution will have to recognize rights in new ways to meet the demands of technology.

Road checks may be legal but by the same token technology can be used to avoid many road blocks. I think the court errored in ruling them to be constitutional but that ship has sailed.
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Old May 22, 2012, 02:27 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by BGutzman View Post
Rights are not subject to governments goodwill, they are absolutes that exist even if a government refuses to recognize them, they are inherent and natural and have existed from the beginning.
Quoted for emphasis! Rights are more than privileges or allowances. They presumptively cannot be abridged unless the government has a darn good reason.

They exist separate from the government. The day they are seen as guidelines or normal laws is the day you lose 'em.
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Old May 22, 2012, 03:32 PM   #63
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To the OP:

Regarding an earlier post...

Quote:
If a policeofficer stops an open carry dude with a precise and spoken suspicion for example
If the person carrying the firearm is in a State where open carry is legal, the officer had better NOT stop the person, unless the officer has clear, compelling reasonable suspicion that the person has/is/will be involved in criminal activity. This is known as an investigative detention, which can lead into the development of probable cause, which is the basis for lawful arrest.

Any officer stopping someone without reasonable suspicion is conducting a "community contact"--right up until the part where the person asks, "Am I free to leave?"

If the officer can not articulate a reasonable suspicion that the law is being broken, they had BETTER let that citizen walk--or face charges that start at unlawful detention and get worse from there.

Most police officers (myself included) hold inviolate the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights of our Constitution, including and most especially the Second Amendment.

Are you going to be over here a bit?
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Old May 22, 2012, 04:06 PM   #64
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standard road block where all traffic is stopped
Okay, I'm not saying they don't exist, but...

It may depend on where you drive. I've been driving, (in Texas for the most part, but in other states, as well), both legally and illegally, since I was about thirteen years old (and that's now becoming a long, long, time).

I've never seen one of those. Not at all.

I think visitors from other places are often surprised, even shocked, at how limited police authority is in this country.

I, like many others, cooperate with the police because we have come to expect professionalism and good intentions from the vast majority of officers but, we are quick to attempt to assert our rights when we believe they are being threatened.

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Old May 22, 2012, 06:34 PM   #65
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I really like having a police force weaker than many other countries.

Gosh have we forgotten about simple abuse of power?

Remember that cop last year who thought it was hilarious to point his assault rifle at open carriers and put them on the ground just to give them a hard time? Even posted about it on facebook? Most cops are good guys but few bad ones can make life really hard for a lot of people needlessly. Making it legal to stop anyone for any reason to check their papers is pointless and another step closer to a police state. Have someone like Kwayne Johnson as your mayor and then decide if you really want to live in an area with a powerful police force.

So, no thanks Sweden and Europe can keep all of that even if it means no nifty chain saws.
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Old May 22, 2012, 06:58 PM   #66
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DUI checkpoints have been deemed constitutional (unfortunately), but they are the exception to the rule. Even at DUI checkpoints, you aren't obligated to answer any questions, and they usually do not ask for ID or insurance unless probable cause develops during the 'interview', should you participate.
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Old May 22, 2012, 07:09 PM   #67
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Border patrol has at least a few checkpoints set up in TX. It was usually a quick, "Are you a US citizen?" "Have a good day."

That said, as a guy from the Midwest, it was very weird the first couple times! I had never seen that before.
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Old May 22, 2012, 07:27 PM   #68
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If we give up Constitutional rights without resistance those who do not want to recognize those rights will just continue to encroach on them. MANY, MANY men and women have fought to preserve who we are and our way of life.
Don't surrender those rights and way of life to be PC or for convenience sake.
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Old May 22, 2012, 09:39 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain
No offense to anyone either but just how many have been stopped at a roadblock?
I've been stopped by local police two or three times within the past five years for seatbelt check roadblocks, and twice for DUI checks. I was also stopped on an interstate highway a couple of years ago by Border Patrol and ICE agents checking for possible illegal "visitors." So that averages about one per year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain
I do know of one place where the police used to hang out by the side of the road where the traffic always slowed down. They'd check (I assume) registration tags and inspection stickers. But they're not there anymore because the road has been changed--and now there's nowhere to pull over if you have a flat, either. But the expression "speed trap" has been around as long as "coffin nail." In other words, it hasn't changed but that's only with regards to driving.
A speed trap is not a roadblock or a checkpoint. At a speed trap they stop only violators. At a checkpoint, they either stop every vehicle, or every "nth" vehicle, with no exceptions. If they stop randomly, they are acting outside of what the law and the Supreme Court allow.
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Old May 23, 2012, 04:56 AM   #70
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Random vehicle stops to check for such things are not valid under Delaware v Prouse. Beyond this case that does not allow random stops, there have been a few cases supporting "traffic checks" whether it be a DWI/DUI checkpoint, or license check point. State v. Sanders, "However, an investigative stop at a traffic check point is constitutional, without regard to any such suspicion, if law enforcement officers systematically stop all oncoming traffic." State v. Barnes, "roadblock at highway patrol checking station was permissible under the Fourth Amendment where the troopers detainedevery automobile that passed through the checkpoint." To read the current statute you can search for NCGS § 20-16.3A Checking stations and roadblocks.

Now with that out of the way.

Going back to the OP's concern of a person identifying theirself to law enforcement.

It is important for a person to know whether or not it is consentual encounter, or they are detained. The officer does not, at least here have to disclose that, except for the fact that a person must feel free to leave at all times, and if they ask, "am I free to leave?" it is best to answer yes if it is a consentual encounter.

Keep in mind that at times a consentual encounter is sometimes converted in to a detention. Also, keep in mind to, that while you may "think you know" why the officer is speaking with you, or detaining you, it may be something totally different. Dont get wrapped up in "oh its because I am carrying a gun..."
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Old May 23, 2012, 05:36 AM   #71
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The funny thing in this thread is that just about all of the incidents mentioned involve law enforcement from the city or county, which is the closest and lowest level of government in this country in most places. But I suppose it is true that all politics is local. It's just hard to make the connection between the abuse of power, if any, by the federal government and what the local policeman does.

The exception mentioned was the Border Patrol and this is a clear example of the federal government actually doing something to enforce laws that everyone on the right wants done but when they actually do it, it seems to be an inconvenience to people.
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Old May 23, 2012, 11:23 AM   #72
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Mr Bluetrain, People talk about their experiences. In the vast majority of contact with police happens with local police agencies. … just a numbers game. It’s also kinda hard to distinguish federal power from local enforcement when the locals have federal mandates trickled down to them, and are getting grants with federal strings attached.
The laws you’re referencing that people on the right want enforced: those same people want the laws enforced in a way that interferes the least with the rights of innocent people. The easiest methods of doing that are opposed by the left … rock … hard place … politics makes more work for the cops, more inconvenience for the public, and costs more. …SOP … and the mods will close the thread if much more is said about politics .. this one’s kinda on the edge anyway.
Quote:
by Fishing_Cabin
It is important for a person to know whether or not it is consentual encounter, or they are detained. The officer does not, at least here have to disclose that, except for the fact that a person must feel free to leave at all times, and if they ask, "am I free to leave?" it is best to answer yes if it is a consentual encounter.

Keep in mind that at times a consentual encounter is sometimes converted in to a detention. Also, keep in mind to, that while you may "think you know" why the officer is speaking with you, or detaining you, it may be something totally different. Dont get wrapped up in "oh its because I am carrying a gun..."
This touches on one of my gripes concerning police encounters … when they stop you and won’t tell you what’s wrong. I can understand it as a delay tactic to run your ID and observe how you act though.
If you ask if you’re free to leave and they say "no" … I think they should be required to give a reason.

The last time I was pulled over (year or 2 ago), spent about 20 minutes on the side of the road while he was in the cop car doing his thing, then he told me my brake lights didn’t work Well, about 2 minutes later a blown fuse was replaced by a spare, I had thanked the cop for stopping me, he also told me that there had been computer trouble that slowed down the ID check. This was a great stop for many reasons, IMO. The cop also decided to not give me a ticket, which was also nice, but I wouldn’t have objected if he had.
This was in the work truck, only guns in it were nailguns.

On the other hand, I had one about a year before that where the cop called for backup and went through a mess that took well over a half hour, closer to an hour. Around here, if they call for backup, you are going to get a ticket no matter what. What triggered the mess was when he asked if there were any weapons in the car. I replied ,"there’s a pistol in the glove box." This stop, no computer troubles. The wait was for the second cop car and them looking over EVERYTHING. The cops were rude. The ticket was for a marker light on the rear panel … there are multiple bulbs in the marker lights on the car, and there were good bulbs on both sides of the burnt one. A lot of car designs have less than half the number of bulbs that this one does. At no time did he tell me what he pulled me over for, until after he handed me the ticket
Seemed like a case of a slow day, might as well check me out since he had an excuse. I’ve got no problem with that … but … getting attitude and the fine tooth comb treatment for legally having a pistol in the car, not cool. … raised a stink about it and the ticket was thrown out, but still …

Another similar incident, same car, same gun, and a seatbelt …that’s a whole ‘nuther story … the seatbelt comes out of the seat instead of down from the roof, and my shirt happened to be the same color of the belt, so cop thought I wasn’t wearing it … Never take the seatbelt off to get to your wallet until the cop asks you to do it. Trying to save you and him a little time by having your license ready can get you a ticket. I don’t blame the cop for the seatbelt ticket, he couldn’t see it, and I took it off too soon.

I really believe that truthfully answering the question about "weapons in the car" brought the second cop car and the same treatment as the marker light incident. Also in the second incident, I didn’t know what I was stopped for until handed the ticket. Maybe the "treatment" is my fault too … for answering truthfully?

All you can do is gripe about this stuff. No way to prove anything, and all I would want is the policy changed, or cop corrected. You can bet that if it was "policy", I wasn’t the only one griping, too Maybe griping did some good, because a buddy got stopped recently with a gun in the car, and didn’t get the second car and the treatment.
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Old May 23, 2012, 12:41 PM   #73
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Doesn't anyone remember the 1960's in America?

The Miranda decision and many other civil rights decisions were necessary changes to our laws,,,
Before that time there really wasn't much protection against random detainment, search, and arrest.

In most cases it wasn't necessary but in many places that behavior was rampant.

Dallas Texas in the late 60's was a nightmare of police abuse of authority.

I was stopped there and my car was literally torn apart while three officers looked for marijuana,,,
I had long hair and was listening to "hippie music" so that was probable cause.

I lived in Europe (Germany, The Netherlands, & Greece) for several years in the early 70's,,,
It always seemed to me that the police were military organizations and assumed military authority over their citizens.

Perhaps it's just that never having any other model to judge by,,,
The citizenry had simply taken this as a matter of course situation.

I however grew up in rural America where the local PD did not "rule" the population,,,
They served the population by enforcing the laws the citizens put in place,,,
The citizenry simply did not put up with a pushy policeman.

I believe it's simply the difference between a hive mindset and a personal mindset,,,
America was founded on personal liberty and the European governments were not.

Perhaps that's one reason we have so much trouble deciding on anything.

Aarond

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Old May 23, 2012, 02:37 PM   #74
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Well, America was founded for several reasons but personal freedom wasn't so high on the list. Some people came here so they could make up laws that weren't allowed in the old country. Frankly, it was justs the opposite of religious freedom. Others came here to get rich because they didn't inherit anything back home. That's as good a reason as any. Others came because they didn't want to say at home and fight wars. And some came simply because there was a bad year with the potato crop.

The police in Europe and the U.K. are not the military, although the military will take more of a role in policing functions than they do here. Ironically, our police actually seem to be more militarized. In any case, the police have what is called "police power." The police in some places, in other countries, have very little effective power. That's called "anarchy."

I remember the 1960s. Remember when cities were burning down? Remember the cry for law and order that became a political issue? I'd say that anything the police are today is partly because of the experiences the country went through in the late 1960s and early 1970s.
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Old May 23, 2012, 05:32 PM   #75
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BT, you are mistaking the european immigration to the "new world" with the founding of America which was when we beat the snot out of the british and FOUNDED a new nation complete with limitations of government that hadn't yet been seen when this land was under control of the king who tried to keep the immigrant serfs in check... The slaughter of serfs for refusing to turn in their arms was a spark in the powder keg...

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