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Old May 13, 2012, 08:05 PM   #1
Marco Califo
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$39 Bulk mil surplus powders

Wideners is taking orders again, after all but one of their 8# surplus powders were suddenly and simultaneously out of stock.

So, I got a receipt for my order of WC872 and 844 ($85) and some other goodies (but not one of the $25 Polish AK-47 stamped receiver blanks!?!).

The 844 will handle all of my real 223 and 308 needs. The 872 will be tried as a cheapo 308 duplex loads behind 175 and 220 gr projectiles. I will post my results, when I get the goods. I might get a chronograph, if I cant find one to borrow. But it is Wideners, so maybe by July 4th?
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Old May 13, 2012, 08:35 PM   #2
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I've been watching the 844, waiting for it to go back in-stock. But I also want to get a pound of CFE223 to try and it's still out.

Does 844 need magnum primers? I have thousands of Wolf and Federal SR primers already, but no SRM primers. Just wondering if I need to order some CCI-41's or something.
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Old May 13, 2012, 09:15 PM   #3
Marco Califo
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I wanted CFE also.

I have been using regular SRP for all 223 powders including H335.
So, I don't think 844 will need them. I really like the H335 and AA Data 2230-C, meter well and are just the right speed, and seem easy to ignite. But these Ball powders are temperature sensetive, so I can't hunt Polar Bear in Antartica. I did order #41's, but more so because I load for semi-autos.
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Old May 15, 2012, 12:28 AM   #4
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I've used up about 48 pounds of WC844 so far using standard Winchester SR primers and Wolf 556 primers and they both worked just fine.
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Old May 15, 2012, 12:35 AM   #5
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Quote:
I've used up about 48 pounds of WC844 so far using standard Winchester SR primers and Wolf 556 primers and they both worked just fine.
Thanks. Both of those are really hot primers, so it doesn't help much. (I just need to try it) Most of my shooting is in the summer, where it probably doesn't matter. I have a couple of hundred Winchesters I can load for cold weather ammo *if* it makes a difference, and that's probably all I need.
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Old May 15, 2012, 02:03 PM   #6
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Marco, i just got my order a few days ago, 8# jug of WC844 that I ordered at the beginning of April. So, yeh, July 4 sounds about right! maybe a little sooner, though...

zxcvbob, I use the CCI 41's and am quite happy with them. Like some of the others, I don't think that a magnum primer is absolutely necessary, but Speer #14 recommends a magnum for both H-335 and BL-C2, so I use 'em for both 844 and 846.
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Old May 17, 2012, 02:36 AM   #7
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I've been using CCI 400 primers & WC844 in an AR with no problems.
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Old May 17, 2012, 09:10 AM   #8
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What you want to look for isn't ignition failures or even close range accuracy issues, necessarily, but minimum velocity variation. So far, the KVB-556M's have done best for me with 2230 and 748. I've not run it with either surplus bulk grade WC844 or canister grade (H335), but Alan Jones says CCI changed its magnum primer formulation in 1989 to optimize it for ignition of these St. Marks spherical propellants. The #41's have the same formulation, but use a different anvil design to reduce sensitivity to mil spec. I get still lower SD's from the Russian primers, so they are my current favorites for long range loads in the AR, whether 748 or a stick powder.


Marc,

I've just suggested to another board member that if he's proficient with a soldering iron, he might want to consider this.
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Old May 19, 2012, 12:31 PM   #9
Marco Califo
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Wideners Shipping Times Improved

Wideners Shipping Times Improved
I got a receipt Saturday and the next Friday I got the UPS tracking info/ Delivery is slated for next Thursday - 12 days order to delivery, from eastern Tenn. to California.
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Old May 19, 2012, 06:53 PM   #10
Greg Mercurio
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Just tested the waters for 2 jugs. Extremely annoying to find the shipping and handling PLUS HazMat fees are $55 additional! Pass.
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Old May 19, 2012, 08:08 PM   #11
Marco Califo
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If you do not know how to buy powders on-line

"Just tested the waters for 2 jugs. Extremely annoying to find the shipping and handling PLUS HazMat fees are $55 additional! Pass."

If you buy ANY gunpowder or primers, from ANY online seller, to be shipped, you will pay $27.50 HazMat, plus shipping (except on some very large orders). The way you work the calculator, after you find the ON switch, is to:
1. Plan ahead and group your purchase to purchase bulk powders, any primers you need, and a cannister powder or two that you find necessary. The more items you combine, the less each item's share of pro rata cost.
2. Compare prices to your local source, IF you have one. factor in your sales taxes if needed. Buy locally if that is a better deal.
I am finding that one HazMat order a year or less works out to be most economical.
Column "I" is my cost per pound when allocating $60 shipping charges. These compare to $28.5 per pound for cannister locally, if I can find something I can use. Add 8.75% sales tax and that is $30.99 before I drive around looking for powder. So, I am saving at least 33% on each pound.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Wideners 051212.pdf (10.3 KB, 31 views)
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Old May 20, 2012, 02:46 PM   #12
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It really varies with the supplier. I bought 10,000 primers on sale from Natchez last Fall and was only charged a $17 Hazmat fee, though $27.50 is their standard hazmat rate. I've seen as high as about twice that. Some places combine shipping and hazmat charges to cover up how much is what portion of the cost. Some portion is the actual hazmat fee (may vary with the shipper) and some portion covers the extra packaging and paperwork from the source. Some outfits appear to be treating their shipping departments as separate profit centers from the actual catalog sale, so the shipping and handling makes a margin. Thank Harvard Business School for that kind of thinking.

I went to look it up from UPS. The information is here, and doesn't correlate to $27.50. If I'm reading it correctly, it's $20 to the regular shipper with a hazmat permit and $30 to the less regular shipper of hazmats. I think that's what they mean, anyway. Fedex Ground's 2012 rate increase says it went from $20 to $22.50.

Anyway, I can't tell you why the sites choose to charge exactly what they do whenever they do it. Given the prevalence of $27.50, I'm starting to suspect pricing collusion or, more likely, simple copycatting.
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Old May 20, 2012, 03:47 PM   #13
Greg Mercurio
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Dear Marco: I have no issue with either calculators or smart a$$es like you. My point is that both the HazMat fee and the Shipping & Handling are in excess of what many others charge. Not really sure why you feel the need to insult people, maybe it's the air in LA that makes people crazy.
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Old May 20, 2012, 03:59 PM   #14
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Have you shipped anything lately? The rates have gone crazy this year. Then add $27.50 to it.

You can still easily save enough money on a large order to be worth it. "Large" can be as little as one case of 5000 primers.
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Old May 20, 2012, 04:09 PM   #15
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Hey guys, let's keep it civil. Be neither condescending nor vulgar, or the thread will close.
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Old May 20, 2012, 05:39 PM   #16
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Quote:
Thanks. Both of those are really hot primers, so it doesn't help much.
I use WC-844 with Magtech SRP's and have no problems.
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Old May 20, 2012, 06:32 PM   #17
Marco Califo
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Dare to Compare

http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/ SHIPPING: UPS/FedEx Surcharge of $27.50 Per Package on Hazardous Materials
http://www.midwayusa.com/ Powder ships separately approximately 2 weeks after order is placed. $27.50 Haz Mat plus $9.99 Shipping fees apply. Powder cannot be returned, 48 lb
max, ground freight only, adult signature required and no shipments to HI or AK.
http://www.wideners.com/index.cfm HAZARDOUS MATERIALS: Now, here is a bear. It is so complicated to ship Haz-Mat (powder, primers and component tracer bullets) that each order is reviewed individually to calculate the packing and shipping charges so the customer gets the best deal. Current Haz-Mat charges are $27.50 per package. Order all you can to reduce your cost per unit as many items can usually be put in one package.
http://www.gibrass.com/ HAZ MAT fee of $27.50 added to all orders of less than 6 jugs. Can ship up to 6 jugs on one HAZ MAT fee.
http://iidbs.com/hitech.zkb?root&method&object-menu0
Haz-Mat Extra An extra $27.50 Haz Mat fee will be added for powder.
Up to 4 - 8 lb containers can be shipped with one Haz-Mat fee.
Order a full case (4 - 8 lb containers, mix or match) and pay only shipping, we will pay Haz-Mat.
http://www.natchezss.com/index.cfm
Hazmat shipping fee applies - $27.50 handling charge per 50 Lbs.
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Old May 20, 2012, 09:58 PM   #18
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Yep, I looked them up, too. But note the Fedex and UPS documents. That's not what the shippers are charging the dealers.
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Old May 20, 2012, 10:08 PM   #19
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Nick, the page you linked is from 2009. Here's the current rate page:
http://www.fedex.com/us/2012rates/su...-and-fees.html (it's $27.50)
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Old May 20, 2012, 10:36 PM   #20
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Haz-Mat Charges

Widener's has been running a special for a while: Buy 6 jugs (or increments of 6) of WC867 or the other .50 cal powder, and the haz-mat was not charged. I bought 6 last month and only paid shipping. But my shooting buddy ordered 6 last night, and they DID charge $27.59 Haz-Mat, so the special must be over which tells me the supplies are getting low again.
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Old May 21, 2012, 07:48 AM   #21
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zxcvbob,

Thanks for finding and correcting my error. Apologies to Marco.

I'd sworn I got to that page following the links to the 2012 increases, but their links must have pulled me in the wrong direction. I still can't decode the UPS verbiage to my complete satisfaction. Sinclair/Brownells says UPS, specifically, is charging them $27.50, too, and that's not in that document.

When you go back to the 2009 document and see it was 22.50 then and $20 the year before (2008), and 27.50 now, you can calculate they've averaged 8.3% a year. I wish I could invest in part of the economy that grew that fast and that regularly. It's apparently quite a nice profit source for them. I'm just hoping the information I got that primers and powder would be dropped from hazmat requirements in 2014 is still correct.
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Old May 21, 2012, 08:45 AM   #22
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We buy freight daily. Fedex, UPS and USPS, plus air and surface freight for large cube shipments. All rates are negotiated based on your business profile, and ability to negotiate the best deal for your company.

Those companies that discount their freight to keep customers happy are the ones who get my money. Those that charge list rate get nothing from me. Simple as that. It's another profit center and while I'm a capitalist pig, price gouging is not high on my list of priorities.
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