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Old May 26, 2012, 11:03 AM   #1
Viperbl1
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Unusual Question - Do You Know?

Hey guys,

I have a rather odd question for you. I am working with an online channel that is looking to film some muzzle-loading action within the next 3 - 4 weeks here in the midwest.

This filming will be used on a 4th of July episode, so we're looking specifically for:

- Muzzleloader with bayonet

- Cannon (Not just a "report" - But fire an actual projectile at a target we provide)

Again, I know this is unusual, but hoping to run across someone with recommendations, or the firearms we're seeking. (Yes, you will be on the show, and the targets will be ballistic jelly)

Thanks for reading!
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Old May 26, 2012, 02:06 PM   #2
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That leaves out the "Buckskinners"

Quote:
Muzzleloader with bayonet
That would pretty much exclude most groups except Millitary reenactors. I am familiar with Civil War groups in the midwest and nationaly, there are even Revolutionary reenactors. One Civil War groups holds skermishes in Eastern Iowa and Western Wisconsin. Suggest you google and find some. ...

Good luck; Said Marco from Tropouya and;
Be Safe !!!
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Old May 26, 2012, 02:20 PM   #3
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Old May 26, 2012, 05:28 PM   #4
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Greetings Viperbl1

No offense intended, but with less than 6 weeks to airing on Independance Day, this speaks very poorly of any planning, let alone safety considerations; and the lack of time further implies that those filmed will have virtually no opportunity for review or input, let alone yea/nay over the final product.

Having been filmed in the past by news & documentary crews with no say over the final product I have seen firsthand the unfortunate results being aired, and I was most unhappy.

Even simple editing with no evil intentions can result in dramatic changes, sometimes disasterous. I am sure many folks have seen similar situations in "the news" .

For example, In recent years a local station interviewed a Forest Service spokeperson regarding a 10 acre fire - the heavily editted version that aired made it sound as tho the Forest Service was ignoring the fire entirely, when in fact they were on the scene and had it virtually out.

I had discussions with others (whom I admire and whose opinions I value) that have similarly appeared "in public" or "on camera" or both and who were, shall I say, "misrepresented".

Thus a number of us decline from such offers.

However, you may find some who so crave any camera time that they would be willing.

Just my views, and as always, your milage may vary.
Good Luck in your effort, and Safety First.

yhs
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Old May 26, 2012, 09:10 PM   #5
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Interesting perspective. No offense taken, but it seems you are a bit confused as to what I stated in my original post.

This is neither a news production, not an opinion piece. This is for entertainment. So your experiences regarding "representation" really don't come into play here. We're talking shooting some targets - Not "reporting" in any way.

So thank you for your comments, but it appears you are a bit off-track here.
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Old May 26, 2012, 09:12 PM   #6
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Pahoo - Thank you. I placed some calls already and am getting some positive hits. Thank you for the suggestions. I believe this will be a great resource.
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Old May 26, 2012, 10:16 PM   #7
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Vipoer wrote:
>Interesting perspective. No offense taken, but it seems you are a bit confused
> as to what I stated in my original post.

On the contrary, my dear sir, whilst I understood your request, it appears you do not perceive my objections.

>This is neither a news production, not an opinion piece. This is for
>entertainment. So your experiences regarding "representation" really don't
>come into play here. We're talking shooting some targets - Not "reporting" in
> any way.

That is clear. I will attempt to clarify my concerns:
1) It has been my experience that Less than 6 weeks to airing is not enough time to handle everything needed, and everything that will come up, even if you already have people to film lined up, which you do not.

Perhaps you have an uncanny ability to fast-track such things where others in the business do not...

Safety First:
2) Safely filming Live Firing and loading with fixed bayonets is not trivial.

3) Safely filming Live cannon fire is even more complex

4) Safely filming cannon fire into ballistic gel ... well you get the idea.

5) After filming is complete you will enter the editing process and the participants are unlikely to have any say over the edited product. It could be good, it could be bad, it could show them in a manner they would not like - but it is out of their hands. Therein is the rub.

I do hope that clarifies things.

>So thank you for your comments, but it appears you are a bit off-track here.

Perhaps I am, but perhaps not. I know several people involved in the BP sports who are with various independant film/production companies but they are unlikely to help because they are the ones that I mentioned in my previous post- it is they who convinced me that without some sort of editorial control it is unwise to participate in venues such as you suggest.

Added after further thought:
If on the other hand, you only wish to "stand off" and passively film the goings on at an existing event, then collect the requisite wiavers, then
Good On Ye!

good luck
yhs
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Old May 27, 2012, 10:43 AM   #8
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Problems with your comments:

#1 - You assume much, whilst understanding little... Where did I state we were "airing" in 6 weeks? I did not, you made that assumption based on the very, very limited info at your disposal. So #1, if you have such a critical fact wrong, what else do you have wrong? I stated this is a 4th of July special episode, but this does not mean air-time is on July 4... Again, watch your assumptions as these often result in the wrong conclusions...

#2 - You are speaking to someone with decades of experience in the industry, and literally hundreds of shoots under my belt. You're telling me what is normal? Sorry, but when dealing with PR firms of fortune 500 companies, you rarely get more than 3 - 7 days lead time to a shoot.

More than half my shoots are demanded "within 3 days." This is normal... Where you came up with this silly notion that 6 weeks is "fast tracking it" is beyond me, and demonstrates once again how little you know about what is "normal" in this industry. I'm talking apples, and you're talking...Well, not even oranges - More like mangoes or something - haha

6 weeks preparation for filming stationary objects being shot down-range is hardly "rushing" nor "complex." Safety is important and a priority to be sure - But "complex?" Definitely the first I've heard make that claim... This is really all I have to say on the matter. If you wish to continue telling someone else how things are in an industry you are quite obviously not in, then by all means please continue to do so, but you won't be speaking to me.

I stopped by with some questions as to recommendations on where to locate 2 items. I received those from another poster, and arguments/assumptions from you...

With that said, the helpful recommendations made by Pahoo may have already paid off, and we just may have a volunteer already. Thanks again! Here's hoping the property meets the criteria.
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Old May 27, 2012, 11:22 AM   #9
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Bent's Fort in La Junta, Colorado will have a Fur Trade gathering of over 50 reenactors this June 2-3. Don't know if there's any live fire demonstrations though. Fort Garland in Colorado should when they have their Civil War days.
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Old May 27, 2012, 01:56 PM   #10
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viperbl1,
I'm not trying to defend anyone here, but reading your OP, I was also left with the same wrong impression as the others. These guys don't need anybody to defend them anyway. They can take care of themselves.

Firstly, and this is not as a personal attack, I dare say none of us have had any favorable dealings nor impressions with members of the media. Be it print, or visual. I've have lots of dealing with both, and I can speak from experience that whatever I said, and whatever they shot in vid were NOT the same thing. Most of the time far far from the truth. That is MY experiences, not hearsay.

Now, mix in our favorite hobby (some will snarl at the word hobby)
But mix in the MOST misunderstood element (B.P.) from the world of the most reviled politically incorrect objects (guns) and everyone is ripe for trouble.

Please, no harm meant to you and please don't be offended. After your last post I understand better what you were asking. You might be the finest guy out there, or you might not be.

But it's kinda hard on us old dogs to sit down by the fire, after we've been hit 100 times before, for simply being there. It's not easy to come back in the house and snuggle up. You are asking a hard thing-give us some time to get over gettin' hit on the head.

Hope it work out for you.
OJW
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Old May 27, 2012, 03:03 PM   #11
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Doesn't this statement in the OP say it will air in 6 weeks?

'This filming will be used on a 4th of July episode' Or is this 4th of July episode to air at a later date?
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Old May 27, 2012, 03:09 PM   #12
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Heavens to Murgatroid!

My Good Viper -

Your are a remarkably argumentative and seemingly hostile person.

You come onto this BP forum, with 19 posts in the last 11 years (Not a critique, merely an observation, I myself have few posts here) and ask for help about where you can film commercially.

Fristly I hope you understand that you are requesting what in my world is considered "expert consulting" for your commercial (ie you are making money) endevour, (even if that expertise is only knowing what events are occurring where). Elsewhere, that is done "for hire".

I am sure you realize that you could have obtained this information in a relatively short time by researching the topics yourself. Instead of doing this yourself you chose the entirely acceptable method of asking experts. That in my world is called "Consulting" .

Sometimes experts will gladly offer a few snips of advise for free, at other times they will demurr - for example just ask a Doctor at a party to diagnose your arm pain.

You sir, entered our "open party" and asked for such advise.
No offense intended, just a factual observation.

If some in the party wish to open a dialogue instead (and waste your valuable time) I suggest that you not take offense.

----------
Secondly on other forums where I am rather active we get regular queries from commercial film companies for a wide variety of "odd requests" ie:

- "we are filming a news segment and need xxx by the end of the day"
- "we are filming a TV commercial and need xxx and we don't know what we are doing and we need everything"
- "we need unpaid extras, supplying their own gear"
- "we are making a documentary about xxx historic period and need footage and can pay but not much"
- "we are a minor independant motion picture company and are hiring"
- "we are a major motion picture company and will be having a cattle call"

Many times little or no further information is provided.

- " we are filming xxx and need experts in field regarding yyy" - this sort of request has ranged from how to load a ML, to Field Tactics of a given period, to steam engine expertise.

The last (steam engine expertise) was rather amusing, as it came from the new director of a State Historic Farm who found themselves the proud owner of quite a lot of Steam Farm equipment. THe Director wanted to hold a large public event, run the equipment , and have it filmed.

When informed of all the complexity involved, the requirement a Licensed State Certified Live Steam Engineer, the requirement of Safety Inspections and Certifications for the Steam Equipment and the insurance required, The Director decided a static display would have to suffice.

-------------
Thirdly, based on such experiences I politely expressed what I still feel are my valid objections and concerns, and offered my experiences in order to demonstrate why I had such concerns.

I still believe I did so in a polite manner.

You, Sir, did not explain your effort in any detail, (please do take the time to re-read your originial missive).

You did leave much to conjecture and assumption. You then ranted about my jumping to conclusions and making various rash assumptions. Yet, Without any details one is left to flounder about and one is in fact left to conjecture and assumptions.

You actually wrote, regarding the timeframe:
>So #1, if you have such a critical fact wrong, what else do you have wrong?

And yet you did not provide detailed facts, in fact you provided very little detail at all, which naturally must lead to conjecture. Your "July 4 segment"
could be aired anytime in the next 20 years for all we know, and yet I believe that I can make the case that it is a perfectly valid assumption that you might wish to air on (or by ) July 4 of this year... :-)

Please Do not attack the Reader for making assumptions when You, the Writer, have left the reader in a vacuum.

Fourthly - In your reply (which I am taking as a rant) you do finally allude to some of your self-proclaimed but as yet unsubstantiated industry expertise, nowhere in the posts have you ever actually offered any proper Credentials. This does not speak well of one who claims to be a Film Professional. For all we know you are just another Troll ...

And then you ignore the stated concerns and only reply with diversion and further attacks. That is much more akin to a "used car salesman".

Now, had you come politely, offering bona-fides and details, like a true professional, things might have gone differently.
----------------

It appears I did make assumptions which you have tried to correct;
but while attempting to defend and explain your experience in your part of the industry (which is clearly larger than my ken (note - archaic expression) you did so in a hostile, agressive backlash to an attack I do not believe I made.

On these forums we gather to discuss BP stuff for fun, rather provide Marketeers or the Film Industy with free services.

It is possible a gross misunderstanding has occurred.

And yet, you never once actually addressed my concerns about how you
would assure people that your finished product would not misrepresent them.
I still have that question!

If you wish to continue a discussion in a civil manner I am open to it.

If you wish to rant or only use these forums for your own commercial purposes, well, Karma happens.

I am however, glad for your sake that you seem to have been able to obtain what you were seeking.

Again, good luck on your endevour
yhs
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Old May 27, 2012, 04:26 PM   #13
Willie Sutton
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Come on guys... give the guy a friggin' break.

Either be helpful, or ignore him.

This is not the best face the forum has ever shown to someone asking for help.


Willie


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Old May 27, 2012, 04:27 PM   #14
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can you say can of worms ?

Willie - he came here asking for free consulting. I think I replied politely. He was ... less than polite, most defensive, and tried to divert from my questions. That always raises red flags in my world.

Heavens, I see OJW and Zullo have chimed in whilst I was still composing my last novellette (post) , and I would like to expand upon OJW's comment:

> But it's kinda hard on us old dogs to sit down by the fire, after we've been hit 100 times before, for simply being there.

And there is the rub: you really need to explain to us
- after having been burned by others in the past, why should we help you ?

If you are filming from afar as a spectator, that is one thing, but since you imply that you and your crew will be actively involved in the activities, (and I can't see how you would not if you will have people shooting into ballistic gel) then

whilst you make claim that you have all planning in place and have done these things in as little as three days, as an organizer of such events as rendesvouz, I am going to ask you some very very blunt questions; and these are based on real world issues that we as shooting event planners have to handle.

- will you have a notary on hand to witness the signature on your releases of each and every person who is or may appear in your film? Commercial filming is different and we now enter contract law...

- how will you handle the issue if someone refuses to sign a release? do you have a plan in place to film around them without disruptiung the event?

Trust me, if you disrupt my event the sheriff will escort you and your team off the field in short order.

- do you have all the necessary filming permits already in hand?
Many of our events are held in National or State Forests or Parks, I trust you are aware that laws have changed and film permits are required for commercial filming in many of them (in addition to various state and city permits of which I am sure you are aware).

- Are you and all members of your crew formally trained in Firearms Safety?
- Are you are all your crew formally trained in Black Powder Safety?
- Are you are all your crew formally trained in Muzzleloader (both flint and caplock ) Safety?
- Are you are all your crew formally trained in Cannon Safety?
- Are you are all your crew formally trained in the active filming of Live Fire Exercises?

- Are you are all your crew aware of and trained in all safety issues regarding Film and Electrical equipment and Black Powder Safety?

- Can you provide current certified credentails for such training?

- Can you provide OSHA Safety credentials?

- Do you already have all the insurance required?

- Will your insurance cover any accident and/or liability including but not limited to any event that is the direct or indirect result of any actions
by your crew, inculding but not limited to any issues involving livestock or pets which may be owned by particpants, visitors, or free range.

- Will your crew include crowd control to handle the extra spectators and attention drawn by filming?

- Will your crowd controll include handling extra issues not normally existing as the result of your filming?

- Will your insurance cover both shooters and spectators while you are there?

- will you provide and pay for any standby emergency equipment (ie, fire, ambulance, EMT) during the duration of your filming?

Can you obtain and provide all necessary paperwork and signatures and provide all paperwork to the event coordinator(s) no less than 7 days but preferably 2-3 weeks prior to the event for review, verification and signatures?

Some events have insurance that may cover filmmakers. Many do not.
See your agent and your lawyer to be sure.
Insurance, safety, liability, and lawsuits are now unfortunate things to which we must nowpay close attention. Does it suck? yes. Can we afford to ignore it? only at your peril.

I am not saying that all of the above will be required in every instance, but I AM saying that the questions must be asked and the issues addressed in advance.

We do not need an untrained, overconfindant, self-righteous film crew causing needless problems or accidents.

We host these events for us, for our own benefit and amusement, not to provide free footage to someone so they can leverage making money from our hobby.

again, good luck
yhs
prof marvel
( i am not a licensed lawyer, but am well read and experienced in contract law, strict and limited liability, many aspects of corporate and partnership liablity, certain aspects of tort, insurance law and claims, and aspects of libel law)
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Old May 27, 2012, 09:21 PM   #15
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I'm not trying to get in the middle of this "fray" . . . but the OP mentions "ballistic gel" . . . . I'm just curious . . . just what is the type of "show" you are filming and wanting to air? Is it to promote the safe use of and the enjoyment of muzzleloading . . . or is it another "shock" type show to show the effects of the weapons on human flesh?

It seems to me there is enough "sensationalism" already. If it is to show the safe use of and the promotion of the hobby, fine. If not . . . well . . . draw your own conclusions. Having participated in individual and team competition as well as live fire cannon competition (as well as mortar) . . . the last thing I'd want is somebody with a camera trying to get film while in an unsafe position.

I go back to my original question . . . just what is this presentation intended to show? No information is given in regards to who is sponsoring this filming, who is involved, the intended use or the channel/media/station that it will be shown on. Again . . . "ballistics gel"??? Sorry, but that isn't a normal part of competition shooting or even casual/informal shoots.

No disrespect intended towards the OP . . . but with very few posts . . . I would think a more explicit explanation would be in order before "jumping on the bandwagon". There is already enough "Rambo" mentality which gives the shooting hobby a bad rap without adding fuel to the fire. There are a number of organizations and events at which this type of thing could be arranged if they wish to accept the liability and that is up to them. The "time line" that is being discussed seems to be on the "disorganized" side so perhaps to be fair, the OP could give a more clear explanation as to what he is trying to show and what the intended purpose is? Just my 2 cents.
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Old May 27, 2012, 09:28 PM   #16
Willie Sutton
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I mentioned two choices:

(1): Help Him

(2): Ignore Him.


Uhh.... Menu Choice 2 please...


Willie

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Old May 28, 2012, 06:18 AM   #17
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Menu choice #3: Be constructive.

See if there is a local NSSA (North-South Skirmish Association) group in the OP's geographic area.
They or their members will have everything the OP wants.

http://www.n-ssa.org/

Click the "Midwest" button and go from there.
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Old May 28, 2012, 06:42 AM   #18
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willie and mehavey are right. Well said, fellas, thank you.
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