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Old May 19, 2012, 07:35 AM   #1
spaniel
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Your take on this CCW encounter?

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/31084756/detail.html

I'm interested what other CCWers think of this encounter. Having been on both sides (driver encountering cyclist and cyclist/runner) I can wear both hats. While I've been enraged by more than a few drivers when cycling/running when they did deliberate things to endanger my safety in retaliation for having the nerve to be on the road sans car, I can see no way this was a justified discharge.

In 20 years dealing with idiot drivers, the singular case I can recall where shooting MAY have been justified was when a driver took two deliberate passes at me with their car (ie came off onto the shoulder at me once, turned around, crossed traffic and took another run at me). Even then since I was able to retreat into a ditch I can't imagine I would have taken on the headache of using a firearm and potentially getting hauled into jail/court.

Some cyclists are jerks....it's hard to tell who was in the right at the very beginning of this....but it seems the driver was a jerk for "brake-checking" in front of the cyclist (road bikes don't stop nearly as quickly as cars, that could have set up a dangerous situation for the cyclist and it appears he did this on purpose), and the cyclist is a bigger idiot for over-reacting.
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Old May 19, 2012, 07:46 AM   #2
Nathan
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This is typical road rage stuff. Being on the road creates elevated stress levels. If you have other thing agitate you, bad things can happen.

From the truck guys point of view, I have to know...why stop if not to physically or verbally attack the biker?

From the cyclist's POV, where you really in fear for your life before the other guy got out of the truck? I think the draw and shoot might have been a bit quick.

I think this quote should be used to guide people driving, CCW or not,
"If you get into a disagreement with someone on the road, another motorist, another bicyclist, no good will come from confronting that person," said Campbell."
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Old May 19, 2012, 08:00 AM   #3
spaniel
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Yes, the quote is from the sheriff.

So far there has been no comments presented to indicate that the driver even got out of the vehicle.

Regarding intentions...having been on the receiving end of dozens of road rage drivers as a cyclist and runner, the intent was likely just to make the cyclist stop uncomfortably fast and scare him, to impede him like the driver felt impeded by his presence. In other words, he likely intended to be a jerk. If he did intend to get out, it's usually a waving of hands and screaming match. Those types of people rarely intend to try and physically assault someone and IMHO nothing in this story indicates that the cyclist had any defendable reason to believe he was going to be physically assaulted.
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Old May 19, 2012, 08:07 AM   #4
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We have lots of nutjob cyclist, many of whom dont use the designated bike path next to the road and block traffic. One idiot even regularly (almost daily) gives turning hand signals to the left so that cars dont pass him, even though he doesnt turn to the left and keeps going and making the same hand signal.

I used to really have respect for the cyclist and I still try to be extra sensitive to keeping them safe concerning my driving but when they get hit by cars I really dont have any sympathy anymore... We have bike paths and even bike lanes, if they dont use them and end up road kill, well its too bad but they do seem to go out of there way to get run over and the more they flip off car drivers the less sympathy I have for them. I dont know what else they expect to have happen on a major road during rush hour when they willfully refuse to use the approved bike trail... Stupidiy...

As for SD by cyclist - it seems like a incident waiting to happen if they cycle in a city.
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Old May 19, 2012, 08:15 AM   #5
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Clear overreaction by the cyclist, but the driver started it by being a tool, driving like an ahole, and endangering the cyclist. And his whining about the charges after being the instigator makes him look like an immature baby. The driver is why our society is circling the drain...no personal responsibility

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Old May 19, 2012, 08:16 AM   #6
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I would love to hear the cyclist's defense in court. Firing at an occupied vehicle is more than just reckless IMO. The driver of the truck beeped the horn, alerting the cyclist of his presence, passed the cyclist and slowed down. If he intended on causing the cyclist harm, he could have bumped the back tire of even ran him off the road while passing him. So, who really started this incident?
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Old May 19, 2012, 08:30 AM   #7
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As a former long distance bicyclist, I've logged many thousands of miles in the saddle. Where in the wide wide world of sports is the bicyclists defense???

The moron bicyclist flipped off a motorist for honking his horn???!!!???

Throw the freaking book at this idiot!
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Old May 19, 2012, 08:52 AM   #8
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The cyclist was a jerk. At least as far as I can tell from the article. I wasn't there. but if you fire shots at people for blowing their horn you should be in jail.

I also don't understand the sudden stop by the motorist. It may have been an attempt to injure the cyclist. I doubt this is the first time he has been flipped off.

Mass is mass. Anyone one a bike should not ignore physics. It's like starting an argument with a horse. You're gonna lose every time.
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Old May 19, 2012, 09:11 AM   #9
Hog Red
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like my wife tells me "better keep that gun in your pants"
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Old May 19, 2012, 09:23 AM   #10
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I have a question

How do you carry IWB in biking shorts?
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Old May 19, 2012, 09:26 AM   #11
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I don't think the cyclist has a good defense, unless there were other actions by the SUV driver that were not reported in the article.

I think both were jerks; I think the SUV driver is lucky he didn't get charged with road rage related offenses for his brake check.

Most of the time, I won't ride a bicycle on a road anymore. I did as a kid, but then traffic was slower, shoulders were wider, and bicycle fatalities were lower. Many drivers started seeming to develop some dangerous attitudes toward cyclists.

OTOH, many cyclists seem to think they have a mandate to inconvenience auto drivers. I know some do this to make environmental statements - "Look at me, you SUV driving planet rapist! I'm green!" Others are trying to get drivers to recognize that the rules of the road apply to bikes. Still others are just clueless.

Clueless cyclists and drivers are dangerous enough. Grandstanders and showboats are road rage incidents waiting to happen.
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Old May 19, 2012, 11:41 AM   #12
spaniel
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"I would love to hear the cyclist's defense in court. Firing at an occupied vehicle is more than just reckless IMO. The driver of the truck beeped the horn, alerting the cyclist of his presence, passed the cyclist and slowed down. If he intended on causing the cyclist harm, he could have bumped the back tire of even ran him off the road while passing him. So, who really started this incident?"

I seriously doubt this was a case of "beeping his horn to let him know he was there". If you have ever ridden a road bike, you know that their stopping distance is a lot longer than that of a car, with those skinny wheels and no tread. A car stopping suddenly in front of them is a dangerous situation -- especially when it is deliberate. I know of more than one cyclist who has ended up on someone's trunk because the driver rushed to pass them before a stop sign then plowed on the brakes as soon as they got around. This is why one of the few places I will take up a full lane with a bike regardless of how rude some non-understanding driver may think it is is right before an intersection -- too many close calls trying to be nice, staying over, then getting cut off and almost ending up on someone's back bumper.

My take on this incident's cause:
--Cyclist was doing something car didn't like. It could have ranged from taking up a whole lane when he did not need to (being rude and inconsiderate) to simply being on the road. These are back country roads with no centerline paved in chipseal (I live nearby). So it is hard to say if the cyclist was being inconsiderate, or was completely innocent of anything at the start of it.

--Car lays on horn. Cyclist may have deserved it, may have not.

--Cyclist flips off driver...immature at the least, can't say I didn't do it when I was younger but it's just asking for the situation to escalate. Better to just ignore idiot driver and move on with your life.

--Driver deliberately cuts off cyclist in attempt to either force them off road, to wipe out, or simply to impede them to "pay them back" for impeding their car and flipping them off. Depending on the circumstances he may deserve a careless/wreckless driving citation for this, depending on the level of danger he presented to the cyclist.

--Cyclist proves himself an even bigger idiot by opening fire.

I think they were both in the wrong here, I've had people use their cars as barricades/weapons against me before when biking/running, but this cyclist deserves to pay for hit hot-headedness in this situation.
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Old May 19, 2012, 11:59 AM   #13
icedog88
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Considerate or not, makes no difference.

Quote:
If you have ever ridden a road bike, you know that their stopping distance is a lot longer than that of a car, with those skinny wheels and no tread.
Immaterial. Whether true or not. Doesn't give the cyclist a right(moral or legal) to pop caps at the driver.
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Old May 19, 2012, 12:59 PM   #14
9mm
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Quote:
Deputies said Steiman then pulled out a .45 caliber handgun and fired three rounds into the back window of VanHowe's vehicle
Nothing says he has a CCW permit, maybe he is just a criminal.
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Old May 19, 2012, 01:19 PM   #15
dayman
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As a cyclist, I can relate to getting angry at idiot drivers. I pay just as much in taxes, and contribute to far less wear and tear on the roads, and it's not my fault that nobody leaves on time. I do carry when I ride - usually in a fanny pack - but I've never even thought about drawing on any of the idiots who don't like sharing the road. I'm more worried about large dogs.
As the story was presented, this guy was way out of line shooting at the car.
That being said, only the driver was interviewed, so we're only getting one side of the story.
We don't know if the driver just bumped his breaks, came to a full stop, or even started backing up.
The sad truth of it is that there are a lot of morons with drivers licenses, and there are a lot of morons with carry permits out there. This seems to be a case where two of them met.
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Old May 19, 2012, 01:26 PM   #16
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So, dayman, what are your annual bicycle registration costs? In many places, those are based on vehicle weight and/ or annual mileage, and those funds are often earmarked for road maintenance.

Meanwhile, drivers may leave on time, but plan to actually do 45 in the 45 zone, and not 15-20 mph behind a bicycle for however long.

Bicyclists have a right to be on the road, but they should still exercise courtesy. Many don't.

(Edit: Note that in a previous post I already stated both actors behaved badly, and that I could see the SUV driver being charged with some road-rage related offense. I am not singling out bicyclists, just devil's advocating dayman.)

Last edited by MLeake; May 19, 2012 at 01:39 PM.
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Old May 19, 2012, 01:44 PM   #17
dayman
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There is no bicycle registration fee. Most people know that, and in fact it's considered one of the perks of biking.
I pay registration on my cars, my motorcycle, and my boat though.
I imagine it has a lot to do with the weight. My 22lb bike doesn't damage the road, so why should I pay a tax to cover road wear?
If there's a paved shoulder I'll ride on it, but if there isn't there isn't much of an option other than to ride in the regular lane. It's easier to pass a bike than a tractor, and we have plenty of those out here too.
But none of this really has a lot to do with the OP, or even guns.
I already said that - presuming we have the full story - this was just a case some moron who should have been carrying a gun.

This may wind up being a double post - I made the mistake of using the "back button", and now I"m not sure what's going on.
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Old May 19, 2012, 01:49 PM   #18
MLeake
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My point, dayman, was simply that people who want to say "I shouldn't have to pay a registration because my bike doesn't damage roads" have a point; but they should also concede that vehicle drivers actually pay more (in registration taxes, fuel taxes, etc) toward road repair and development, which offsets the damage those vehicles may do.

I've encountered far too many bicyclists who cop an attitude about road wear, yet don't seem to realize drivers pay more toward fixing roads.
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Old May 19, 2012, 06:06 PM   #19
dayman
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First, I don't know any cyclists who don't also own a car and pay all the associated taxes, but again, that wasn't really my point, nor was it the point of the post.

This was about the shooting, and we all seem to agree that there does not seem to be any justification of that.

The only reason I brought up biking at all was to make the point that while there is often cause to get angry at bad/aggressive drivers that doesn't justify shooting at them - whether you're on a bike or in a car. If a person can't get upset without going for their gun, they have no business carrying one.
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Old May 19, 2012, 06:57 PM   #20
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I don't see the threat that needed to be stopped, the man was still in his car, the car was NOT backing up or moving towards the cyclist. If there was a threat it was perceived only. This is akin in my mind to pulling on gun on someone who looks sketchy and gives you a funny look. Yeah in 30 seconds he might be robbing you but "hunch" is not a good enough standard for the use of deadly force.

Both people were in the wrong on some level here but nothing was done, implied or said that required the firing of shots.
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Old May 19, 2012, 08:49 PM   #21
spaniel
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"Considerate or not, makes no difference.

Whether true or not. Doesn't give the cyclist a right(moral or legal) to pop caps at the driver."

icedog, I suggest you read better before you reply. I never defended the actions of the cyclist. Quite the opposite.
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Old May 19, 2012, 09:08 PM   #22
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what do i think of it?

i think it's an extreme measure.... the cyclist has issues if he really thought it was necessary to pull a 1911 and start unloading rounds into a car....

i didn't bother reading the entire article, does it actually say that the dude had a license for the firearm?

i'd assume not since he was stupid enough to do that in the first place.

i had some homeless dude come up to my truck the other day and start banging on my passenger window and looking at my wallet that was in my center console, and saying "give me money" or something to that effect...

i started screaming at him in english and "french" if you know what i'm saying... and started to go for my pistol..... but..... decided not to......

and, he went away on his own to go harass someone else..

one thing i guarantee though... being in texas, i do guarantee that if i had pulled the gun on him, i wouldn't have been the first one to do so that day....

but, i couldn't prove that i was "scared and in fear of my life" so i left it in the door where it belonged... i dont want my license taken away from me for something that stupid... u know?
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Old May 19, 2012, 11:57 PM   #23
Frank Ettin
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Now what is reciprocal stupidity supposed to teach us about Tactics and Training? Closed.
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