The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 18, 2012, 02:44 PM   #1
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,719
First-ever Law School Textbook on Second Amendment Published

Source: http://volokh.com/2012/05/15/new-tex...ts-and-policy/

The authors are Nick Johnson of Fordham, Michael O' Shea of Oklahoma City, George Mocsary of Connecticut, and David Kopel. Given the authors, I expect to see some excellent scholarship on the Second Amendment in this textbook.

Somewhat off-topic, I also learned that Dave Kopel was a lifelong registered Democrat who voted for Nader in 2000. Yet, he has been a staunch supporter of the Second Amendment for a long time and has done a lot of scholarship and writing on the subject since the 1990s. Just goes to show that the Second Amendment cuts across traditional political stereotypes.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old May 18, 2012, 03:32 PM   #2
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,825
Well, if you support gun rights, that's being liberal. If you support more people being able to vote, that's being liberal. If you are trying to restrict voting rights, that being conservative. If you are trying to restrict people's access to firearms, that's being conservative, too.

I for one have no idea what it means to be Republican or Democratic because they don't bother to say exactly what "Republican values" are or "Democratic values" are. They used to talk about things like tariffs but when did you last hear that mentioned?
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old May 18, 2012, 05:48 PM   #3
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,852
Kopel is a great guy. He took Gary Mauser (a progun scholar) and moi shooting in Boulder with his Springfield TRP.

Here's an earlier text - Gun Control and Gun Rights: A Reader and Guide by Andrew J. McClurg, David B. Kopel and Brannon Denning

It has rational pro and con reviews of firearms issues.

Also, a good read is:

Gunfight: The Battle over the Right to Bear Arms in America by Adam Winkler

Inside scoop on the Heller fight - some progun folks don't come out so good if you know the inner workings of the fight.

Winkler's book is clear that being a 'conservative' doesn't mean you are progun but we don't want to start this endless debate by folks who use the term as tribal identifiers without delving into the issues - which we don't want to do here.

Glenn
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old May 18, 2012, 08:44 PM   #4
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,648
That's a hefty chunk of book at 1068 pages!

Agreed that Gunfight is well worth reading. Where Winkler and I disagree, he's really thought his arguments through.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old May 18, 2012, 08:57 PM   #5
zippy13
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 23, 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 6,416
Quote:
That's a hefty chunk of book at 1068 pages!
It seems you haven't priced text books recently. Typically, they aren't published by charitable organizations.
zippy13 is offline  
Old May 18, 2012, 10:00 PM   #6
Gary L. Griffiths
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2000
Location: AZ, IA, WA
Posts: 1,298
Quote:
The authors are Nick Johnson of Fordham, Michael O' Shea of Oklahoma City, George Mocsary of Connecticut, and David Kopel.
I agree, these are excellent authors. It is very comforting to know that the first Second Amendment law textbook is being written by men of such caliber (pun intended), rather than by Justice Stevens, Breyer, and Ruth Bader Ginsburg!
__________________
Violence is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and valorous feeling which believes that nothing is worth violence is much worse. Those who have nothing for which they are willing to fight; nothing they care about more than their own personal safety; are miserable creatures who have no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of those better than themselves. Gary L. Griffiths, Chief Instructor, Advanced Force Tactics, Inc. (Paraphrasing John Stuart Mill)
Gary L. Griffiths is offline  
Old May 18, 2012, 10:12 PM   #7
Al Norris
Staff
 
Join Date: June 29, 2000
Location: Rupert, Idaho
Posts: 9,323
I just wish I could afford the $160 or so bucks to buy it (you have checked amazon, yes? - Out of stock, already)!
Al Norris is offline  
Old May 18, 2012, 10:21 PM   #8
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,648
Quote:
It seems you haven't priced text books recently. Typically, they aren't published by charitable organizations
It's not the cost that made me blink; it was the sheer size of the darned thing. It better have lots of purty pictures to go with all them words!

I am hoping for a Kindle version, though. The ability to do quick searches (especially in such a large block of text) beats a printed index.

(My college major required buying lots of books, some of which were only used for a single lecture. That was roughly twenty years ago, and if costs have kept up with inflation...holy cow.)
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old May 18, 2012, 10:39 PM   #9
ScottRiqui
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2010
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 2,905
Quote:
(My college major required buying lots of books, some of which were only used for a single lecture. That was roughly twenty years ago, and if costs have kept up with inflation...holy cow.)
I know where you're coming from - I got my undergrad degree about twenty years ago as well, and in any given semester, it wasn't unusual for my books to cost more than my tuition/fees.
ScottRiqui is offline  
Old May 18, 2012, 11:07 PM   #10
B. Lahey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 17, 2008
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,840
If any lawschools actually use this book, there will soon be used copies, crazily striped with hi-liter and dogeared, available for pennies on the dollar.
__________________
"A human being is primarily a bag for putting food into; the other functions and faculties may be more godlike, but in point of time they come afterwards."
-George Orwell
B. Lahey is offline  
Old May 19, 2012, 03:57 PM   #11
vranasaurus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 16, 2008
Posts: 1,175
I may go talk to one of my law professors about teaching a class on the 2A. Even though he is a former Brady center attorney his classes on the 2A during con law was really well balanced and sparked a healthy debate.

For me it would be a fun class to take in the next two years.

Last edited by vranasaurus; May 19, 2012 at 07:31 PM.
vranasaurus is offline  
Old May 19, 2012, 07:26 PM   #12
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,852
I shall ask the school library to buy one.

You might ask your local public library to do the same.

Glenn
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old May 20, 2012, 12:01 AM   #13
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,922
We've come a long way. When I took Con Law in 1973, the Second Amendment wasn't covered at all.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old May 20, 2012, 09:24 AM   #14
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,648
Quote:
We've come a long way. When I took Con Law in 1973, the Second Amendment wasn't covered at all.
As recently as 2002, American Government classes in my area's high school were glossing over it in the same vein as the 3rd. It was considered an anachronism that only applied to arming state militias, apparently.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old May 20, 2012, 12:15 PM   #15
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,825
Geez; don't people know the constitution can't be changed and we have to keep everything the way it was in the 18th century, when everything was perfect and all problems had been solved.
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old May 20, 2012, 04:57 PM   #16
BGutzman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2009
Location: Frozen Tundra
Posts: 2,414
Quote:
Geez; don't people know the constitution can't be changed and we have to keep everything the way it was in the 18th century, when everything was perfect and all problems had been solved.
Im not sure what your driving at but what I can say is I do believe the average joe had a lot less legal overhead back then... My goodness we are locking up people for not having siding on the house.... is that truly a felony crime or have we all lost our minds... Lemon-aid stands virtually outlawed.... I dont think were more free than the past by any means.

Few debated your right to have any kind of arms you wanted in the 18th century.. No disrepect to anyone but you want to see what happens to populations that are disarmed look at the UK... Totally out of control....
__________________
Molon Labe
BGutzman is offline  
Old May 20, 2012, 05:34 PM   #17
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,852
Back on topic, please - let's not wander.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old May 20, 2012, 07:29 PM   #18
Spats McGee
Staff
 
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 5,213
When I took ConLaw around ~2000, I don't recall even discussing the 2nd.
__________________
A gunfight is not the time to learn new skills.

If you ever have a real need for more than a couple of magazines, your problem is not a shortage of magazines. It's a shortage of people on your side of the argument. -- Art Eatman
Spats McGee is offline  
Old May 21, 2012, 06:47 AM   #19
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,825
I've been to Britain and I couldn't tell the difference between there and back home, except I don't know anyone who eats beans for breakfast.

Anything about the 2nd amendment would be constitutional law. How much time is spent on constitutional law in law school? I have a nephew who just finished law school. Next time I see him, which will be probably in August, I just might ask him, if I remember (which I probably won't).

There is much discussion here about what the 2nd amendment means. I don't recall reading much about who it applies to. My wife's ancestor, George Mason, who actually thought of it, clearly didn't mean for it to apply to everyone. He had no problem with slavery, so all of those rights we cherish simply didn't apply to them. I'm no scholar and not even a good speller but I don't know what other limitations he may have had in mind with the bill of rights. I even suspect he may not have intended it to apply to women!
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old May 21, 2012, 08:50 AM   #20
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,719
Quote:
There is much discussion here about what the 2nd amendment means. I don't recall reading much about who it applies to. My wife's ancestor, George Mason, who actually thought of it, clearly didn't mean for it to apply to everyone. He had no problem with slavery, so all of those rights we cherish simply didn't apply to them. I'm no scholar and not even a good speller but I don't know what other limitations he may have had in mind with the bill of rights. I even suspect he may not have intended it to apply to women!
Both of which were changed by Constitutional Amendment, as opposed to the more modern style of simply declaring that the Constitution says 4+4=9 and getting 5 votes to agree with you.

I don't think anyone has a problem with changing the Constitution so much as they do with the way the Constitution has been continually changed without any resort to the actual method provided for changing it.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old May 21, 2012, 09:57 AM   #21
zukiphile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 1,660
I am somewhat curious about how or whether it will be used. Many of the ideological indictments of universities generally also apply to law schools.

I also wonder how well law students will digest it. In some ways, law students aren't especially well or roundly educated, and are not any less likely to receive a text to which they are opposed politically in a political fashion.
zukiphile is offline  
Old May 21, 2012, 11:31 AM   #22
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,825
Mr Roberts, both of what were changed by constitutional amendments?

And Mr Gutzman, are any of the things you mentioned federal issues or are they things that state or local laws have covered? I will agree, however, that we are quick to lock people up. But you should all be reminded that we have had presidential elections in which law and order were issues and that was generally from the right side of the aisle. That is the result. On the other hand, many things have also been criminalized at the federal level, particularly with drugs.

There is also the issue of operating prisons as a profit-making enterprise, which of course is entirely outside of the scope of this forum.
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old May 21, 2012, 12:16 PM   #23
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,719
Quote:
Mr Roberts, both of what were changed by constitutional amendments?
The status of women and blacks as citizens - which is what I presumed you were alluding to by your comments regarding George Mason.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12502 seconds with 7 queries