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Old May 12, 2012, 07:38 PM   #26
zoomie
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As far as Germany being small and homogenous, there are nearly 100,000,000 Germans, and nearly 20% of them are either immigrants or descendants of immigrants.
If you use your numbers, 99% of the US is immigrants or descendants of immigrants. I know my great-grandparents came over on the boat, so I'm a descendant of immigrants, but I'm 100% American.

80% native Germans > 1% Native Americans.

Anyway, here are the CIA numbers:
Quote:
German 91.5%, Turkish 2.4%, other 6.1% (made up largely of Greek, Italian, Polish, Russian, Serbo-Croatian, Spanish)
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/gm.html

And of those immigrants, most are European who already share a values system. That's a far cry from the US where immigrants are literally from every country in the world. How many "Americans" consider themselves such and how many consider themselves part of their home country. We have people that are 10 generations removed from a continent that still refer to themselves as ethnically-hyphenated. Our cities are a classic case of the Clash of Civilizations.

US:
Quote:
white 79.96%, black 12.85%, Asian 4.43%, Amerindian and Alaska native 0.97%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.18%, two or more races 1.61% (July 2007 estimate)
note: a separate listing for Hispanic is not included because the US Census Bureau considers Hispanic to mean persons of Spanish/Hispanic/Latino origin including those of Mexican, Cuban, Puerto Rican, Dominican Republic, Spanish, and Central or South American origin living in the US who may be of any race or ethnic group (white, black, Asian, etc.); about 15.1% of the total US population is Hispanic
Point still stands - compared to the US, Germany is homogeneous and that creates fewer problems than does a melting pot.

Last edited by zoomie; May 12, 2012 at 07:57 PM.
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Old May 12, 2012, 08:07 PM   #27
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So, rampant_colt, are you really trying to say they didn't use 85 bullets?

Because they did. I am pretty sure the projectiles that came out of their barrel can be called bullets. Only in badly made movies do entire cartridges come out of a barrel. Or maybe the Germans were in Weird Al movies.

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Old May 12, 2012, 08:26 PM   #28
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SHNOMIDO:

street gangs in the USA border on civil disturbance.

Pick up 100 Gangster Disciples out of chicago and 100 mexican mafia out of texas and drop them on both sides of berlin.

Give them 6 months to set up competing crime and drug syndicates and see how many rounds the police have to fire that year.

Its not a gun problem its a gang problem.

Better make that 60 days, I really doubt that enough of them would survive a whole six months, or at least enough of them to make an impact. Or do you really think there are no drug and criminal gangs in Berlin? Or is it just that ours must be so much tougher that the all the others?
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Old May 12, 2012, 09:07 PM   #29
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German police only used 85 bullets last year

I'm certain Germany doesn't have to deal with 10 million illegal aliens, 33,000 violent street gangs, motorcycle gangs, and prison gangs with about 1.4 million members that are criminally active in the U.S. today.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investig...ts/gangs/gangs

The other issue is how street gang mentality is generally acceptable and glamorized by our society. It's cool and trendy for kids to talk, act and dress like a "gangsta", wearing their stupid-looking flat-bill baseball caps, baggy pants and oversized t-shirts, packin an illegal heater. Peace-out, y0.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Longdayjake View Post
So, rampant_colt, are you really trying to say they didn't use 85 bullets?

Because they did. I am pretty sure the projectiles that came out of their barrel can be called bullets. Only in badly made movies do entire cartridges come out of a barrel. Or maybe the Germans were in Weird Al movies.
That's cute. So, longdayjake, did they just throw the 'bullets' at the bad guys with their hands, or were they loaded into cartridges? It's called semantics. Every mainsteam media report I've read or watched on TV regarding firearms was biased, filled with technical inaccuracies and full of major flaws. How many bullets are in your clip?

The Germans only used 85 cartridges in 2011 is what the title should say. Or conversely, 'used 85 rounds in 2011'.
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Old May 12, 2012, 09:54 PM   #30
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How many bullets are in your clip?
Sometimes 8 and sometimes 5. Depends on the gun I am shooting. All I was trying to say was the title is factually and technically correct. In order to shoot 85 times it takes 85 bullets. Unless of course you are shooting with a shotgun. Or a tank, or whatever.

Furthermore, if you were to say that the Germans only shot 85 rounds you would technically be wrong since rounds originally came from (depending on the source you cite) using round ball bullets or a group shooting a volley of fire back in the old musket era. Though it may be technically wrong to say round, it is widely accepted as the term for a piece of ammunition. Thats because soldiers, people, movies, and video games have been calling them rounds for long enough that the terminology has stuck. I wonder how many guys sat around the camp fires during the civil war and complained about all the guys calling their new bullets balls even though they were oblong and grooved. The point is, "bullets" is fine. You know the difference. There is no need to make fun of or give a hard time to the OP because he is using a term that is widely accepted by most everyone. The only place it is really important to differentiate between the two is in the reloading forum. Otherwise, we all get what he is trying to say. Or am I wrong? Did you guys think the Germans were using rail guns when you read the OP?
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Old May 12, 2012, 10:53 PM   #31
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Any comparison between Germany and the US is invalid before you even start. Homogeneous population,
Homogenous population?

Really?

Get 4 old german guys in a beer hall, say an Ossie Saxon, a Bavarian, a Prussian and a Saarlander ..... they won't even agree on how to drink beer.... never mind the millions of descendants of Turkish "Guest Workers" ..... the hundreds of thousands of Balkan War refugees that never left ..... Germany was not even a country 150 years ago, but a bunch of separate Kingdoms and duchys.... until the Prussians beat them into a formidable Empire ...... when they could no longer fight each other, they went looking for trouble......

There was a very real respect (or more rightly, FEAR) of the Polizei- as was mentioned before- they do not fear accusations of "police brutality"- beating the tar out of unruly or uncooperative ...... suspects ..... seems to be part of the job. I have seen that firsthand. Germans heard of Rodney King and said, "What did he expect? He runs from the police, risking the lives of innocent people....."

I lived in Germany in the late 80's to mid-90's ...... there were plenty of regional tensions then, and I am sure such exist today......


There was a cultural "sense of order" and neatness that I noted ..... everything must be done in the proper time, by the proper person, who was properly trained, and has the proper permits from the proper "-Amt" (There seemed to be an "-Amt" for everything.) * This seemed to stifle individual initiative, but their bureaucracy was so effcient, it actually worked, if you followed all the steps you needed to do to get anything done.
Guns are not common there, and armed criminals are dealt with very harshly.

*I noted that there were almost no pick-up trucks there: Germans hired a moving company if they needed something moved, where Americans will call a buddy with a pick-up.
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Old May 13, 2012, 01:55 AM   #32
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And of those immigrants, most are European who already share a values system.
I'm afraid I can't agree with that. Just because someone is from Europe, doesn't mean that everyone and anyone gets on with others like peas in a pod.

Europe, on the whole, works satisfactorily together.
However, there are dozens of countries, populations, languages, cultural and ethnic groups all stuffed into a realtively small are, with a big population for that area, as well. This does not make for a shared value system.

The stuff we do agree on is probably not so different to what many see as important in the US..

This vast array of cultural beliefs, values and attitudes makes Europe a facsinating and exciting place to life: you don't have to travel far to see something new. The flip side of course is that it can lead to cultural friction.

In that respect I think that the US is more homogeneous.
Yes, everyone (or mostly) is of immigrant stock, but they were all drawn to the US because of its way of life: people of different backgrounds actively came together becuase of the shared goals they had in common...

How all that relates to the OP is a complex one.

I still believe that this stat on firearms use is largely a reflection of the cultural upbringing of the Germans, and probably also on Police training.
Perhaps they have a different set of procedures to follow before drawing and using a weapon is deemed appropriate action.
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Old May 13, 2012, 03:16 AM   #33
SHNOMIDO
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Wymark-

Call me isolated or ignorant, but i believe the violent street gang problem in the US is worse than Germany.

Hell, maybe I'm wrong or maybe im exaggerating it. What do i know...

We should look at the breakdown of reason for force used, if there is any kind of statistic that tracks that. See why cops in germany are shooting Vs why in the US.

Another thing is this is tracking shots. I dont think it would be unreasonable to believe that all 85 of those rounds were fired in 2-3 incidents.

85 rounds, 3 incidents, 2 cops per incident, empty a 15 round magazine each.

Might have only been 3 nasty mag-dumping incidents all year. Im not implying anything besides the bullets used statistic is kind of vague.

85 bullets could have been one bank robbery.
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Old May 13, 2012, 04:51 AM   #34
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Germans heard of Rodney King and said, "What did he expect? He runs from the police, risking the lives of innocent people....."


That is genius. I wish America could be more like that. No joke. That is 100% true in my opinion.
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Old May 13, 2012, 05:36 AM   #35
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There is a lot of forgotten history here. In the 1870s, something like 20% of the American population was foreign born. What is it now?

Also, in Germany for twenty years at least after the war, there were large numbers of what were called "displaced persons" in Germany. Some numbers of former soldiers from other countries to the east were organized into military units called labor battalions but I don't know how long they exisited. They were there when I was there, however.

In Germany, there was for a while some tension between what was East Germany and the rest of the country. The current chancellor is from former East Germany. For a relatively small country (smaller than the U.S., China or Russia), there are equally great regional differences that go back hundreds of years, although less than there used to be because of redrawn borders. Patterns of land ownership, for instance, differ from place to place. On the other hand, Switzerland, an even smaller country (which calls itself a confederation), has even greater differences. Then there was Yugoslavia.

From reading the original article, however, the statistics are slightly loaded. They didn't count the bullets used when animals had to be shot and of course they didn't count bulets used in training. Likewise, they may not have included bullets used by other agencies, so you should always take statistics with a grain of salt.
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Old May 13, 2012, 05:47 AM   #36
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I think the Germans are just better shots the we are.
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Old May 13, 2012, 05:58 AM   #37
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I dont think it would be unreasonable to believe that all 85 of those rounds were fired in 2-3 incidents.
I was thinking the exact opposite - maybe part of the reason German cops fired so little is that they don't go so nuts when they do have to shoot - thinking about the recent thread about the NYPD shooting 80-something rounds at a guy and wounding him 17 times.
Either way, knowing the number of incidents as well as the number of shots would give a more accurate picture.
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Old May 13, 2012, 06:35 AM   #38
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I wonder if maybe the criminals are held accountable for their crimes unlike in the US where too many are not held accountable for their behavior due to various liberal excuses. I won't elaborate, because you don't want me to get started.
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Old May 13, 2012, 06:35 AM   #39
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could it be that us cops have it more leniant when using their guns?

I am pretty sure that German cops have it similar to Swedish ones, only in a life and death situation are they allowed to (almost) even pull their guns, **** british cops and norweigan are unarmed, the brits have special cops with guns and I believe norweigan cops have it in their cars but it is locked and can only be unlocked over the radio
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Old May 13, 2012, 06:45 AM   #40
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KMAX you don't wanna know, just like most of Europe a life sentence isn't a life sentence really (unless you are really psycho)

I can't promise it is the same in Germany as in Sweden but here you are not sentenced for every crime (if you are charged with multiple stuff) just the one with the highest sentencing, parole after 2/3 is common

This really sucks for us gun owners because the criminals never really gets punished for illegal gun ownership because it never really comes up unless they commit a crime with the illegal guns. but us hunters and sportshooters are regulated ad nauseum, now they are even going to outlaw semi auto rifles
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Old May 13, 2012, 07:10 AM   #41
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I have no problem with any gun ownership, legal or illegal. It is the inappropriate use of the gun that I have a problem with. If my neighbors want to own fully automatic weapons I don't care. If they want to shoot them at the range or some other safe area I don't care. If they want to shoot up the neighborhood or rob people or murder people, then I care. Gun ownership in itself is not the issue, but rather the use of said guns. Guns are not the problem, behavior is.

Also, I think that a lot of cops in the US are under-trained. This is based solely on my opinion of some of the cops I have known and observed.
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Old May 13, 2012, 09:51 AM   #42
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The cultural contexts of Germany are not a T and T issue.

Also, watch the language filter and off topics posts.

Closed.
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