The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Bolt, Lever, and Pump Action

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 4, 2012, 07:12 PM   #51
a7mmnut
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2009
Location: NC Foothills
Posts: 1,150
Elmer Keith still lives!

Math ain't everything. There's always been a ton of difference for me. Shoot what you shoot best. As for me, I'm a7mmnut.

<7><))))))))))))))))))))
a7mmnut is offline  
Old June 6, 2012, 05:15 PM   #52
Clark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 1999
Location: WA, the ever blue state
Posts: 2,811
I have been hunting over sage brush.
I shot a couple deer over 500 yards.
I shot a couple deer under 400 yards.
But almost all the deer I shot were between 400 and 500 yards.
That is because I stalk to, or wait while intercepting until the deer is between 400 and 500 yards.

I like the 130 gr Ballistic tip 270 bullet for lung shots.

The 270 shoots flatter than the 30-06.
If both rifles are zero'd at 200 yards, the 270 needs less hold over or adjustment on the elevation knob.
__________________
The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books."
"Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist.
Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?
Clark is offline  
Old June 6, 2012, 07:29 PM   #53
Striker1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2004
Location: TX
Posts: 635
But how much hold over? That seems to be the question.
Striker1 is offline  
Old June 7, 2012, 09:25 AM   #54
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,329
If zeroed at 200, per my Sierra book, the 300-yard drop for a 130-grain .270 is about five inches. For a 150-grain '06, about six inches. (That's from memory; my Sierra book is 1,400 miles away at the moment. )

My holdover at 500 yards for a 150-grain from my '06 is about four feet. I had no trouble hitting the plate, first time out, guesstimating holdover with my usual 200-yard zero. IOW, not worth worrying about.
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old June 7, 2012, 12:02 PM   #55
Striker1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2004
Location: TX
Posts: 635
Quote:
If zeroed at 200, per my Sierra book, the 300-yard drop for a 130-grain .270 is about five inches. For a 150-grain '06, about six inches. (That's from memory; my Sierra book is 1,400 miles away at the moment. )

My holdover at 500 yards for a 150-grain from my '06 is about four feet. I had no trouble hitting the plate, first time out, guesstimating holdover with my usual 200-yard zero. IOW, not worth worrying about.
My thoughts as well...in a practical sense I don't see enough difference to worry about.
Striker1 is offline  
Old June 7, 2012, 07:23 PM   #56
Clark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 1999
Location: WA, the ever blue state
Posts: 2,811
If the 270 with 26" barrel and 130 gr boat tail is driven at 65ksi the trajectory will only be a small amount better than a 30-36 with 26" barrel and a 130 gr boat tail driven a 60kpsi.

The 270 will start at 3190 fps and be down to 2020 fps at 550 yards [8 moa correction point]

But the 30-06 starts at 3280 fps and is down to 1895 at 550 yards [8 moa correction point]

This means the 30-06 kicks more but has less power at range.
__________________
The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books."
"Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist.
Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?
Clark is offline  
Old June 7, 2012, 08:04 PM   #57
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,329
My father always loaded his '06 to GI specs, using the Hornady 150-grain Spire Point. Witnesses related the stories of observing him call the shot for one-shot kills (yeah, more than one) out around 500 yards. And that was way before laser range-finders.

If you know what you're doing, it doesn't really matter a lot what you use...
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old June 8, 2012, 06:17 AM   #58
hooligan1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2010
Location: Independence Missouri
Posts: 3,239
Amen brother!
__________________
Thanks for coming!
hooligan1 is offline  
Old June 8, 2012, 08:54 AM   #59
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 6,699
The .270 WIN is a wonderful open country hunting cartridge.

Target shooting ...... not so much.

Quote:
Anyone here ever tried the .270 out past 400, 500...?
Yes.

Works on deer.

@Brian P: colorful charts, but it looks as if you used a flat based 150gr .270 WIN bullet in your example: There are boat tailed .277 150's with G1 BC's over .500 .....


Quote:
Makes me wonder what all the debate is sometimes with regard to "flatness"
For most folks, it is akin to arguing how many angels may dance on the head of a pin ....... for me, it is important, in that with my rig, any good sized deer that appears on the hayfield in front of me and begins feeding* is mine if I want and he gets within 500.......

At 500 yards, even with 9x magnification, 6-8 inches more holdover is harder to judge .... and the rangefinding has to be much more exact...... with my rifle and load, my bullet will drop just over 18 inches ( top of the back to the bottom of the heart on a large deer ) between 400 and 500..... zeroed for 300, I can use the horizontal crosshair to underline the deer's chest at to 250 (poi will be +4" at 100, +4 3/4" at 200, and begins falling to dead on at 300, 11" low at 400 (spine hold), and between 400 and 500, I'll need between 6" and 18" holdover- easily figured using the animal's chest as a guide.

With an -06, and 150 grain bullets, I'd want target turrets or a mildot scope- which would make eyes open, snap shots at short range harder.....


.... I can't speak to wind drift, as I won't take long shots on game if there is any wind to deal with- I don't have that skillset.

Quote:
I don't believe there is any inherent accuracy edge of one cartridge over the other.
Some are (shorter, fatter cartridges of modest velocity are inherently more accurate than longer, hypervelocity cartidges.... they are more efficient, too, allowing more bangs for the buck) ..... and benchrest shooters have proven it ...... but to most people, benchrest guys are "preoccupied with inconsequential increments"..... much the same way as high plains hayfield hunters, or southern beanfield guys are.......

Quote:
A .270 of most any brand will shoot custom ammo like a varmint rifle, and that's how it should be treated-like a varmint rifle.
While it does a fine job on varmints when loaded with 90 to 110 grain varmint bullets, it is not ideally suited for that- pink mist is pink mist, and a .223 will make it at 1/4 the cost..... plus 300 rounds of 55gr @ 3000 f/sec won't make your shoulder nearly as sore as 300 rounds of 110gr @3000 f/sec .... I know this from experience...... though that will sure sharpen your skills for deer season ....... prairie dogs @ 300 yards from field positions is good practice for an animal with a 12"x18" vital zone.....

Quote:
If you've got plenty of room to run a blood trail, fine. The bigger hole and energy of the .30 cannot be denied.
I have yet to see a deer hit well with a .270WIN that went very far .... then again, "far" can be a subjective term....... I also have yet to see a deer that was hit with high powered rifle bullet that anybody could tell what diameter the bullet was that struck it, unless they found the bullet (assuming it held together and did not exit) and measured the un-expanded portion of it.


Were I to take up a "long range" target game, I would not choose either the .270 or the -06 ..... I'd want somthing more efficient that would not beat the hell out of me on the bench......



*with a flight time exceeding .5 sec, you have to be sure your target does not move: when deer are feeding, even if they go on alert, the head will come up, and they will look for the threat, but the chest won't move....
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old June 8, 2012, 05:21 PM   #60
hooligan1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2010
Location: Independence Missouri
Posts: 3,239
Well put Jimbob!
__________________
Thanks for coming!
hooligan1 is offline  
Old June 8, 2012, 10:47 PM   #61
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,336
Jimbob,

They were Winchester PowerPoints, I think. There's not much choice, only Winchester ammo.

Here's one with all XP3 bullets... 270Win 150gr, 30-06 150gr and 243Win 95gr



With Winchester factory ammo, I don't see any 30-06 round that really comes close to 270. Close being a relative term, no closer than 4-5 inches at 500 yards.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old June 10, 2012, 10:30 AM   #62
Clark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 1999
Location: WA, the ever blue state
Posts: 2,811
This is the entance hole and an exit hole in a Mule deer's rib cage after I shot it a 500 yards with a 270 130 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet.

The holes do not look big, but the lungs were liquefied. The animal staggered and fell down with blood coming out the mouth.
__________________
The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books."
"Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist.
Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?
Clark is offline  
Old June 17, 2012, 08:18 AM   #63
bulldawg1024
Member
 
Join Date: June 11, 2008
Posts: 25
I agree with some others and say 30-06 due to the bullet choices and also wind/weight advantage.
bulldawg1024 is offline  
Old June 21, 2012, 03:55 AM   #64
ZippZ
Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2005
Posts: 20
You can pick up cheap plinking Greek surplus 30-06 ammo from the CMP. No surplus for the 270.
ZippZ is offline  
Old June 24, 2012, 12:06 PM   #65
langenc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 19, 2007
Location: Montmorency Co, MI
Posts: 1,187
If I was getting a new rifle it would be_________?? I have a 30-06 and therefore would not want to load for a 270. Since I have a 30-06, I dont need another.

If I was getting a new rifle it would probably be a Tikka 300 WSM.
langenc is offline  
Old June 26, 2012, 06:38 AM   #66
TNT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2006
Location: Back in glorious Nebraska
Posts: 606
Quote:
I have a 30-06 and therefore would not want to load for a 270. Since I have a 30-06, I dont need another.
my dad taught me old school I grew up with the ole girl I own one she is over 100yrs old fought in three major wars and is proven herself. Perfection is hard to mess with. If you don't have either both are good choices. Good luck if you have to choose
__________________
"In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man and brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."
TNT is offline  
Old October 13, 2012, 09:16 AM   #67
Tnnhoj
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2012
Posts: 1
Depends on quality of the rifle

There is no correct answer from a different perspective. Go to the gun store and buy 4 Winchester model 70's, 2 in 30-06 and 2 in 270 caliber. This is not possible but, have ammo that is an exact match with each other, exact powder, exact pills, exact dimensions and all (Per caliber). Now go to the range 1 rifle is going to be the most accurate, 2nd, 3Rd , and last. I do not know which will be first. All rifles are different even same caliber from the same manufacturer. The question really is "did I buy a rifle that has the long range consistency in accuracy that I desire"! The 270 pills leave faster than the 06 (farther down range in .2 seconds therefore a flatter trajectory) but if the POI is not the same shot after shot what good is it? or you can reverse this. So the answer is how well does the rifle shoot and not which caliber. Either caliber is capable of beating the other it depends on how well the rifle shoots.
Tnnhoj is offline  
Old October 13, 2012, 10:57 AM   #68
RC20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 1,967
Quote:
Were I to take up a "long range" target game, I would not choose either the .270 or the -06 ..... I'd want somthing more efficient that would not beat the hell out of me on the bench......
While I agree with most of what Jimbob said, I disagree that you have to suffer the above (excepting you have a collector 270 or 30-06 of some type that you do not want to mess with, i.e. Sako 270, 1903 that's vintage Pre 64 Winchester etc).

That said, my brother tamed his 7mm with a Limb Saver.

I won't claim to be an expert, but I have shot the 375 H&H as well as the 338 Winchester Magnum.

Of all those, the 7mm Remington Mag is the nastiest to shoot. I think you have to get into the .40 caliber and above to be worse than that).

If a Limb Save can tame a 7mm rem mag, then it will turn a 270 or an 06 shooter into a friendly house kitty.

No disagreement that its really a matter of choice as to what the mission profile is and what works a bit better where.

One gun battery and you are going to shoot anything from moose to Sitka Blacktail and you may have a bear encounter , then a 30-06 simply cannot be beat.

On the other hand, if you are Elk size and lower and never plan on anything bigger, then a 270 is more than adequate.

And if you are out at 500 yards, I don't see any difference between 44 inch hold and a 50 inch hold. Too many other factors are going to play into that shot as it is a field shot not a bench rest shot (even if its a supported shot).

If you like the 270 (and I love it) then go for it. The only thing its shy of is the wider capability that the 06 has and if you don't need it there is some advantages that help in its area of capability.

Whatever the choice, both are great, enjoy it!
RC20 is offline  
Old October 13, 2012, 12:10 PM   #69
Chuck Dye
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 28, 2002
Location: Oregon-The wet side.
Posts: 825
So, if all of the above doesn't clear, or muddy, the waters sufficiently, why not complicate the question and consider the .280 Remington?
__________________
Gee, I'd love to see your data!
Chuck Dye is offline  
Old October 13, 2012, 12:21 PM   #70
RC20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 1,967
Well we can add in the 270WSM, the 270 Wheatherby magnum, 7mm-08 and.....

A lot of fine calibers, but the ones under discussion are 270 and 30-06 and opinion not asked for others.
RC20 is offline  
Old October 15, 2012, 05:06 PM   #71
imp
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 11, 2006
Location: Pencil-Vania
Posts: 452
I had a Tikka in .308 a few years ago, sold it to pay some bills. A few months ago, I walked into the gunstore and looked at identical Ruger American's, one in .270 and one in .30-06. I spent the next two days agonizing over which one to buy, reading posts on here and other places, checking out ballistics on various websites. I came to the realization that it didn't make a lick of difference one way or the other. I plan on hunting a few eastern states, and the largest animal I'm likely to encounter will be black bear, and either would do the job. I ended up going for the .30-06, becase I do not reload, and there is a larger variety of commercial loading for the old gal.

At the end of they day, both cartridges do essentially the same job. Take medium critters at moderate ranges. Get one, learn it's particulars, and leave the nuances to those that have little else to do.
imp is offline  
Old October 16, 2012, 07:42 AM   #72
hooligan1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2010
Location: Independence Missouri
Posts: 3,239
The 30-06 can be ethically used to hunt any game in the northern hemisphere, a .270 win, not so much, because all the heavier bullets the old thirty cal can wield.
I know there is some who might argue this point but the majority of use would pick the 3006 to hunt All species, before picking the .270 to hunt ALL species with.
__________________
Thanks for coming!
hooligan1 is offline  
Old October 16, 2012, 08:33 AM   #73
Rifleman1776
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 25, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 3,309
Easy choice. The venerable aught-6.
The "flat shooting" (not really) advantage of the .270 is almost a myth. The mid-range trajectory difference is tiny, not worth anything but writers ink to perpetuate the myth.
The .270 is a caliber that did not need to be invented.
The only cf calibers needed for north america are .223 and 30-06.
Rifleman1776 is offline  
Old October 16, 2012, 10:10 AM   #74
hooligan1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2010
Location: Independence Missouri
Posts: 3,239
Quote: the only cf needed for north america are .223 and 30-06.
And who would agree on that garbage? Why do we have all these great calibers to choose from? Some would argue that the .22 lr, and a 12 guage shotgun is all that is needed.

That's like saying we all need to drive station wagons!!!
__________________
Thanks for coming!
hooligan1 is offline  
Old October 16, 2012, 07:25 PM   #75
Striker1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2004
Location: TX
Posts: 635
.270 Win.

For a round that didn't need to be invented, it sure ha been put to good use.

RE hunting all NA game animals...you may be right but how many of "us" will ever hunt ALL NA game animals? Not many I'd bet.

PS

What do you guys think about modern bullet designs making smaller calibers suitable for larger (tougher) game?
Striker1 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14601 seconds with 8 queries