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Old May 12, 2012, 02:05 AM   #26
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Sheep
...These reports make me a little uneasy. Don't they do the same to you?...
Of course they do, and for a variety of reasons some of which go far beyond the topic of this thread.

But for our purposes here, the thing is that in any human interaction there is always the possibility of an aberrant response. But the mere possibility of such response is not a good reason to forebear from doing the right thing.

And of course, in the real world no matter what we're talking about it is always a good practice to (1) know and understand the applicable law; (2) conduct yourself in a way that conforms to applicable law; and (3) do the right thing in an intelligent, thoughtful, careful and controlled way. If we approach things that way, even if we get an aberrant response we'll be best able to deal with it successfully.
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Old May 12, 2012, 03:00 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Sheep
...These reports make me a little uneasy. Don't they do the same to you?...
Of course they do, and for a variety of reasons some of which go far beyond the topic of this thread.
But for our purposes here, the thing is that in any human interaction there is always the possibility of an aberrant response. But the mere possibility of such response is not a good reason to forebear from doing the right thing.

And of course, in the real world no matter what we're talking about it is always a good practice to (1) know and understand the applicable law; (2) conduct yourself in a way that conforms to applicable law; and (3) do the right thing in an intelligent, thoughtful, careful and controlled way. If we approach things that way, even if we get an aberrant response we'll be best able to deal with it successfully.
Agreed, Frank.

And if we don't do the right thing, we let such aberrant behavior slide and get worse. (But no one wants to be the test case, right?)

Standing up to a mugger is often done with force or the threat of force (and can be scary). Standing up for rights is no less scary sometimes, but we owe it to ourselves to do it. (aside from the general moral responsibility to report crimes and attempted crimes)

We often don't think of the "after action" activities of reporting to police or even just returning home as requiring tactics and training. But they do.

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Old May 12, 2012, 05:30 PM   #28
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Concur with TXAZ. Treat the drawing the same way you would if you had actually fired.

It also depends on the Jurisdiction you are located in. In my case, if I were involved in an incident in Paul Babeu's jurisdiction in Pinal County AZ I would call 911 report the incident and then call my attorney. His advice is to inform them I am shook up and will schedule an "Interview" at a later time.

If the incident occurred in my home county, Apache County, I would speak freely as i am not on the Sheriff's enemy's list.
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Old May 12, 2012, 09:11 PM   #29
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Since I live and police in a non CCW state I shouldn't opine about things I don't have knowledge of... But, when did that ever stop me.

Report the crime and your response to it. Lying even by omission will bite you in the bottom. Doesn't have to be a disposition just a sketch of facts in case it goes anyplace.... Lotsa stating of fear for my life and threats made and weapons displayed by offender would be in my report.

If you were right to use deadly force you were right to draw.
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Old May 22, 2012, 09:32 AM   #30
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Sorry I forgot about this thread for a while but I just saw this and it reminded me of it.

Quote:
And exactly what evidence do you have to support that assertion? Any actual examples?
http://www.northjersey.com/news/crim...ctims_aid.html

Could you imagine what he would be charged with if he came out with a gun? even if he didn't shoot the guy...
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Old May 22, 2012, 09:51 AM   #31
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To defend my compatriot from Cape May (greetings cousin!), let me interject this:

In NJ, where I lived for years, posession of a firearm outside of your own propery is a crime unless you are directly transporting to or from a shooting range. No exceptions. If you ever use one to defend yourself, you WILL be arrested and prosecuted as a criminal. No exceptions. Those NJ residents who participate in civil disobediance and carry for defense in contravention of the law are already felons.. albeit ones who have made the calculus decision to accept trial by 12 rather than transport by 6 if they need to defend themselves. NONE of them will be picking up the phone to report that they have drawn on a bad guy who then ran... they will simply be hoping against hope that they can withdraw without anyone noticing. I daresay that most "disobediant" (IE: "Criminal" if you want to use the correct term) carriers in NJ would not even bother calling 911 after shooting a bad guy... even if other than their decision to violate the carry laws they are saints: Makes no difference if their defense was justified under defensive use of force laws: For the mere carriage of what they then lawfully used they will go to jail, no if's and's or but's. They would likely attempt to disengage and dissapear... alive and still scared of what the state will try to do to them. It's sad but true. There is NO rapport between the law and firearms owners in NJ.


This mindset is so ingrained into the NJ shooting community that members of same have a complete and utter distrust of law enforcement policies in regards to firearms. Nobody with any sense in NJ draws any attention to themselves regarding firearms in any way, whatsoever. Not at home, work, play, or anywhere else.

It really *is* another world there.


Willie

.

Last edited by Willie Sutton; May 22, 2012 at 09:59 AM.
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Old May 22, 2012, 10:04 AM   #32
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Quote:
To defend my compatriot from Cape May (greetings cousin!), let me interject this:

In NJ, where I lived for years, posession of a firearm outside of your own propery is a crime unless you are directly transporting to or from a shooting range. No exceptions. If you ever use one to defend yourself, you WILL be arrested and prosecuted as a criminal. No exceptions. Those NJ residents who participate in civil disobediance and carry for defense in contravention of the law are already felons.. albeit ones who have made the calculus decision to accept trial by 12 rather than transport by 6 if they need to defend themselves. NONE of them will be picking up the phone to report that they have drawn on a bad guy who then ran... they will simply be hoping agaist hope that they can withdraw without anyone noticing. I daresay that most "disobediant" (IE: Feloneous) carriers in NJ would not even bother calling 911 after shooting a bad guy... even if other than their decision to violate the carry laws they are saints: Makes no difference if their defense was justified under defensive use of force laws, for the mere carriage of what they then lawfully used they will go to jail, no if's and's or but's. They would likely attempt to disengage and dissapear... sad but true.


This mindset is so ingrained into the NJ shooting community that members of same have a complete and utter distrust of law enforcement policies in regards to firearms. Nobody with any sense in NJ draws any attention to themselves regarding firearms in any way, whatsoever. Not at home, work, play, or anywhere else.

It really *is* another world there.


Willie
Appreciate the post Wille. Most people who have never experianced what it is like in a place like this will never understand what it is really like, and quite frankly I can't blame them. It's very hard to devolope an understanding of something that does not make sense in any way shape or form.

People in free America like to think that this is indeed a free a country and that the goverment isn't out to prosecute you. However the sad truth is that sometimes yes, they are.

Again I in no way condone or advocate the actions described by myself and Mr. Sutton. However to understand the mindset of those who do you really must live/have lived in a place like for some time. Walk a mile in someone elses shoes and all that jazz....
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Old May 22, 2012, 12:21 PM   #33
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"Appreciate the post Wille. Most people who have never experianced what it is like in a place like this will never understand what it is really like, and quite frankly I can't blame them. It's very hard to devolope an understanding of something that does not make sense in any way shape or form"



The reciprocal of that is that somone like me who lived in NJ for decades, grew to the age of majority there, and tried to enjoy shooting there as a hobby, is essentially "scarred for life" in regards to their worldview of the way the police and prosecutors will deal with firearms in other venues. I'm VERY glad to be living elsewhere, enjoying my rights as a citizen (for the first time in 50 years, I might add), have my CCW, carry daily, and yet... still.... I feel a sense of "guilt" for the lack of a better word when I see a police cruiser out of the corner of my eye. Being trained with aversion therapy for decades is not something that is easy to lose.

NJ is a place where you have exactly the firearms rights that the police and the prosecutors office say you have... not more and not less. The 2nd Amendment of the Constitution of our Republic is a joke there. Shoot a bad guy IN YOUR HOUSE and the first thought of most of the people there would be "How the hell do I get this dead criminal outta here and into the meadowlands without anyone seeing me"...... because you WILL be charged and harassed and life will become a nightmare for you. Do this on the street... well, you may live, but you're going away for a long-long time. We have people in prison in NJ for shooting a pigeon with a BB gun out of their window: It's a felony there.

I never knew anyone who actually carried in contravention of the law here, and I certainly never did. Heck, I felt like a damned criminal just driving to the range with a .22 in my trunk. I'm sure some do... but not many.


Willie

.
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Old May 22, 2012, 12:33 PM   #34
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBowTies88
...http://www.northjersey.com/news/crim...ctims_aid.html

Could you imagine what he would be charged with if he came out with a gun? even if he didn't shoot the guy...
Actually, no.

According to the article you linked to, the boyfriend was arrested after he:
Quote:
...pummeled Johnston, fracturing bones and causing serious injuries to his face and head....
If one beats up someone else causing those types of injuries, he can probably expect to be arrested. He might claim self defense or defense of another, but all that will have to be sorted out later. An arrest is often the first step.
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Old May 22, 2012, 12:34 PM   #35
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Quote:
The reciprocal of that is that somone like me who lived in NJ for decades, grew to the age of majority there, and tried to enjoy shooting there as a hobby, is essentially "scarred for life" in regards to their worldview of the way the police and prosecutors will deal with firearms in other venues. I'm VERY glad to be living elsewhere, enjoying my rights as a citizen (for the first time in 50 years, I might add), have my CCW, carry daily, and yet... still.... I feel a sense of "guilt" for the lack of a better word when I see a police cruiser out of the corner of my eye. Being trained with aversion therapy for decades is not something that is easy to lose.

NJ is a place where you have exactly the firearms rights that the police and the prosecutors office say you have... not more and not less. The 2nd Amendment of the Constitution of our Republic is a joke there. Shoot a bad guy IN YOUR HOUSE and the first thought of most of the people there would be "How the hell do I get this dead criminal outta here and into the meadowlands without anyone seeing me"...... because you WILL be charged and harassed and life will become a nightmare for you. Do this on the street... well, you may live, but you're going away for a long-long time. We have people in prison in NJ for shooting a pigeon with a BB gun out of their window: It's a felony there.

I never knew anyone who actually carried in contravention of the law here, and I certainly never did. Heck, I felt like a damned criminal just driving to the range with a .22 in my trunk. I'm sure some do... but not many.


Willie

I haven't thats for sure... but I'll be honest and sometimes I do think about it. I almost grabbed my carry piece on the way out the door today after hearing about the 47 and 80 year old female tourists that were stabbed to death yesterday in AC in broad daylight. Hearing about such instances just make your blood boil knowing that those people didn't have a snowballs chance in hell of protecting themselves.

I would rather walk around all day in the worst parts of philly (while carrying thanks to my UT permit) then just drive through Camden on the way to jury duty
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Old May 23, 2012, 01:11 PM   #36
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Just to remind everyone, this thread is about reporting a defensive gun use in which shots weren't fired. It's not about New Jersey.

Let's get back on topic please.
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Old May 24, 2012, 11:41 AM   #37
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I think you should do the report if you can. I live in Cook County Illinois. I can guarantee if you called this in in this state you would lose all your guns and your state licence to own them.

I don't carry a gun as it is not legal in this state. Only the bad guys get to carry in this state.
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Old May 24, 2012, 01:37 PM   #38
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Call 911 tell that a person(s) tried to commit x crime on you, give info to where person(s) went running off to, his clothing, height etc...


Quote:
I don't carry a gun as it is not legal in this state. Only the bad guys get to carry in this state.
I would leave
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Old May 24, 2012, 02:26 PM   #39
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Both times that I had to draw my weapon law enforcement was called. I simply told them what happened. They checked my CHL, took a repoert, had me fill out a statement. Then returned my gun, and sent me on my way.

Shots were not fired on either occasion. Cops looked for suspects afterwards, and told me I would be notified if they found them. I have not heard anything back since.
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Old May 24, 2012, 02:47 PM   #40
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have not heard anything back since
When did this happen?
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Old May 24, 2012, 04:56 PM   #41
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As fate would have it, I was in a situation just like this just a few months ago. The only words out of my mouth were "I want my attorney." The officers then went on their way and I've not heard anything from my local LEA since.
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Old May 24, 2012, 08:47 PM   #42
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9mm I have not herd back from them on the two incidents. Both happened several years ago. One was a guy with a bad case of road rage. The other were some guys triangulating me at night. The second was in an area where two other people that worked for the same company had been robbed. Both described similar situations happened before they were robbed.
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Old May 25, 2012, 04:38 AM   #43
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Interesting responses, based mainly on locale.

I'm a cop from Louisiana and have been behind the badge for over 30 years. Louisiana is a gun-friendly state, to the point where I assume that half the people I interact with are carrying a gun, either on their person or in their vehicle.

Let me state for the record that in 30 years of practice, I have never had a problem with a law-abiding citizen carrying a gun. On the occasions where someone reports a crime and tell me that they pointed a gun at the offender, I ask the question "Did you shoot him?" That lets me know if I'm looking for a wounded offender, and to check the hospital emergency rooms. I'll ask basic information to complete my report, but I will not ask to see the firearm. Just whether the gun was a long gun, a handgun, dark or stainless, that sort of question to help me complete the report. "He pointed a shotgun at the offender and told him to leave the premises immediately."

I remember one little old lady who was known to carry a cap-and-ball revolver under the seat of her car. She pointed it at a fellow one day and he nearly crapped himself when she thumb-cocked the hammer.

But, the responses from the folks in less gun-friendly states is illuminating. I've never run into that mindset. Yeah, there are folks here who don't like the police, and cringe when they see a cruiser in their rear-view mirror, but that's based on traffic tickets, not 2A issues.
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Old May 25, 2012, 10:07 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawpaw
Interesting responses, based mainly on locale.
On the nose.

That doesn't even mean that if you live in NJ or Chicago and you have an interaction with local police that it will necessarily turn out badly. I believe we are less likely to hear about contacts that don't generate a problem. I worked in a rather anti-gun city, but I know many POs who wouldn't give anyone a problem for carrying, even before legal permits, unless the person was engaged in some other crime.

However, in these places one doesn't know which sort of individual a PO will be until he has that contact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawpaw
But, the responses from the folks in less gun-friendly states is illuminating. I've never run into that mindset. Yeah, there are folks here who don't like the police, and cringe when they see a cruiser in their rear-view mirror, but that's based on traffic tickets, not 2A issues.
Emphasis added. I note this because it is true and funny.

I am a middle aged man and suburban homeowner. I am bald and boring and ooze stability; POs don't see me as a problem and my interactions with them typically reflect that. However, when I was 17 and thought the only correct position for a gas pedal was all the way down, the police viewed me with appropriate suspicion.

When I see a car running radar, I still instinctively lift the pedal and think "Oh ****!". For a split second, I forget that I am no longer 13 and driving illegally. I wonder how old a fellow needs to get to shake that reflex.
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Old May 25, 2012, 11:17 AM   #45
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I drew down on a guy once while I was stationed in Kodiak. My daughter was very young at the time and I had her in a backpack carrier while I was fishing (Mrs. JGCoastie needed a break, from both of us I presume).

Long story short, the guy made several threats against me and my daughter because she was being louder than he liked (yeah, small children make noise, whouldathunkit?). He started stomping towards me telling me he would shut that little @#$%! up one way or another and I drew. I wasn't about to get in a fistfight with my daughter strapped to my back...

I drew down, yelled at him a couple times, and he stopped, turned, and ran to his vehicle. Several bystanders called the State Troopers and MILPOL (joint jurisdiction area). The officers from both agencies took my statement and description of the guy, talked to all the bystanders (one had written down the license plate number of the guy), and then they left.

I was open-carrying at the time and not a single one of them asked me for my gun or asked to look at it. The only time they mentioned it was after I asked them what they wanted me to do with it.... They said to just leave it holstered and that would be fine with them...

Gotta love Alaska.
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Old May 25, 2012, 04:35 PM   #46
Willie Sutton
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"When I see a car running radar, I still instinctively lift the pedal and think "Oh ****!". For a split second, I forget that I am no longer 13 and driving illegally. I wonder how old a fellow needs to get to shake that reflex"



Never... it's operant conditioning. Same reason I freeze for a second and think "holy cow, there's a cop and I'm carrying a pistol" even with my CCW firmly in hand.

Once we are trained to "feel guilty" it stays forever.


PawPaw... that was a superb post. The thing is that guys from down there (I lived in Houma for a while BTW) don't feel a twinge of guilt about carrying a pistol in their car. Pull them over in NJ as they pass thru and they don't have any hesitation about saying with all innocence "sure officer, I've got my pistol *right here*" and then get hauled directly to jail. It happens about once a year, or at least makes the papers once a year or so.



Willie

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Old May 25, 2012, 10:19 PM   #47
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Drawing is effectively the same as drawing and firing. Report immediately, Call attorney and respond the same as if you had fired.

1. in fear for my life.
2. shook up
3. Conduct interview later when you are coherent.
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Old May 26, 2012, 08:04 AM   #48
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Quote:
PawPaw... that was a superb post. The thing is that guys from down there (I lived in Houma for a while BTW) don't feel a twinge of guilt about carrying a pistol in their car. Pull them over in NJ as they pass thru and they don't have any hesitation about saying with all innocence "sure officer, I've got my pistol *right here*" and then get hauled directly to jail. It happens about once a year, or at least makes the papers once a year or so.
Thanks, but that's the point, it's all based on locale. In New Jersey, evidently, it's against the law to carry a gun in your car. (Not bashing NJ, just sayin'). Here in Louisiana the vehicle is considered an extension of the home, therefore having a gun in your car is an absolute constitutional right. They teach us that in the police academy, whatever you can do in your home you can do in your car. SO, folks in Louisiana are ingrained with that in our heads. If I were driving thru another state and a cop asked.... Well, just last year I was driving thru Georgia and a cop stopped us. He asked if we had any guns in the car. I had to count on my fingers for a moment and told him "Yeah, four." H just shook his head and laughed.

I'm really saddened that my badge-toting brethren in other states hassle people over what I consider a constitutional right, an iron-clad constitutional right. But I blame that on The People. If The People want iron-clad constitutional rights you've got to work for them, you've got to agitate for them, you've got to politic for them and you've got to be smart about it. But, you've got to get The People on your side. That's the American way.
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Old May 27, 2012, 03:46 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
Report the incident promptly and truthfully.

If the other guy gets on the phone to the police first complaining about the nut job waving a gun at him, you'll start out telling your story in a hole you'll need to climb out of.
Agreed.

"Police? I am at [location]. I was just assaulted by a [description] male/female who threatened me with a [weapon]. I have a license to carry and I displayed my carry gun, at which point the assailant ran away. What would you like me to do?"
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Old May 27, 2012, 03:56 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Sheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
And exactly what evidence do you have to support that assertion? Any actual examples?
Since you ask,

I recall Meleanie Hain, a soccer mom in Lebanon, PA who had her concealed carry license revoked for carrying openly.
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/ind...at_prospe.html

Unfortunately her story was overshadowed by her later murder at the hands of her husband. But the judge who ordered the Sheriff to restore her concealed carry permit found the Sheriff's action without merit.
Bad example.

Melanie's license was not revoked for drawing a firearm in self defense but not shooting. Her license was revoked because she practiced open carry (which was -- and is -- legal in Pennsylvania where she lived) and had the chutzpah to do so at her daughter's soccer game. Some other soccer mom got her knickers in a twist and complained to the sheriff, who got his knickers in a twist and pulled her license. Fortunately, the court spanked the sheriff and her license was restored.

Her case had nothing to do with the topic of discussion in this thread.

The irony was that PA allows unlicensed open carry (except in Philadelphia), so the net effect of revoking her license was to make it illegal for her to carry any other way EXCEPT open carry. I think her county's sheriff was hiding behind the door the day brains were handed out.

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