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Old May 7, 2012, 09:48 PM   #1
dmt411
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Dud rounds 9mm & 45 ACP on Lee pro 1000

I have loaded approximately 2000 9mm rounds with Winchester 231, CCI 500 small pistol primer and Rainier 115 gr hollow point and 1.125". About 10-15 out of these have been dud rounds, when fired they fizzle and smoke slowly rolls out of the guns and the bullet is lodged about half inch into the barrel. I thought problem may be with powder.

Then I purchased some HS6 and loaded 45's with 7.2 grains HS6, 230 grain Precision Delta FMJ, CCI 300 large pistol primer and 1.234" OAL. Hodgdon calls for 8.0 to 8.2 grains, I dropped 10% for a starting load. I loaded 30 of these and about the 13th round I had same trouble as the dud rounds in the 9mm.

I believe they all had a full powder charge as I check before placing the bullet on the case. Any ideas what is going on? Bad primers, crimp or powder...

I appreciate any help, thanks.
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Old May 7, 2012, 10:50 PM   #2
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Bad process, it isn't the fault of the press or components.
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Old May 7, 2012, 11:02 PM   #3
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Sounds like either too little or no powder. What powder hopper are you using?
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Old May 7, 2012, 11:23 PM   #4
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Bad process, it isn't the fault of the press or components.
Without actually seeing his components, press, and/or process, you can't make that call.

More information is required, before you attempt to tell the guy he's doing it wrong. How about some questions, instead of an attempt to crucify?
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Old May 8, 2012, 04:19 AM   #5
m&p45acp10+1
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Never go below the starting load in the manual. The only time you reduce by 10% is when the only load listed is the maximum load. Then reduce by 10% and work up. You are getting squibs from improperly charged cases. The pressure curve of undercharged rounds can be very erratic as well.
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Old May 8, 2012, 05:02 AM   #6
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That's a very high error rate. I've never had a squib and only one high primer in over 12K rounds reloaded and shot. Sounds like you need some major process changes.
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Old May 8, 2012, 08:24 AM   #7
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"Dud rounds 9mm & 45 ACP on Lee pro 1000 "

It's not due to the press, not any press. Maybe the wind was blowing the wrong direction or you had the wrong color shirt on when they were fired but it wasn't the press. And I CAN make that call.
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Old May 8, 2012, 09:06 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by m&p45acp10+1 View Post
Never go below the starting load in the manual.◄ The only time you reduce by 10% is when the only load listed is the maximum load. Then reduce by 10% and work up. You are getting squibs from improperly charged cases. The pressure curve of undercharged rounds can be very erratic as well.
I concur with M&P. It would probably be a good idea to pull the bullets, dump the powder and start over again. Two thousand rounds is a lot of work, but reloading is always a learning curve--sometimes very steep
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Old May 8, 2012, 09:43 AM   #9
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and the bullet is lodged about half inch into the barrel

Sounds descriptive of a primer only round.
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Old May 8, 2012, 11:37 AM   #10
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In my 9mm, I'm using some 25+ year old W231 for one of my best target loads. At 3.6 grains powder under a Berrys 124 grain HBFP, the load is significantly low power, as can be seen from its average velocity of 856 fps. Even this low power load gets down range; therefore, I'm thinking the powder isn't the problem. I'm even using the "tame" Wolf primers, but they have no problem igniting the W231 every time. So your primers shouldn’t be the problem either.

With the following assumptions, my best guess would be insufficient powder (too little or none). What kind of powder measure are you using?
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Old May 8, 2012, 11:38 AM   #11
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The powder measure being used is the Lee Pro Auto-Disk Powder Measure. I look into about 50% of the cases to assure I can at least see powder in it. Realizing of course I can't tell if I have 7.2 or 1.2 grains but can at least see powder.

FrankenMauser, thanks for the input.

I should clear up, all of the 9's were loaded with minimum loads, not the 10% light, that was only on the 45's. Also it won't take long to pound out the rest of the 2k 9's as most of them have been fired as they were made, that is how I knew I had 10-15 out of 2k that were bad. So it won't take long to empty the last two.

wncchester, I think you are onto something, I believe it was a green shirt with a NE breeze I probably should have gone with blue.

89blazin, that is my only thought as well that one either missed powder all together or was very light. The only reason I don't think this is the case is one afternoon I loaded a batch of 20 9's with a 124 gr magtech bullet a friend had with a powder load according to Hodgdon's website and watched each one closely before adding the bullet to assure powder was present and one of them failed and lodged a bullet in the barrel. This was about the time I bought some HS6 and started to load the 45's.
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Old May 8, 2012, 11:56 AM   #12
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Thanks serf'rett, that is what I am looking to accomplish is a slightly slower round, maybe not as slow as you have described but same idea.

I loaded another 50 of the 45's last night (12.5% below starting load) and will take them to the range tonight for a test drive. The first batch loaded 12.5% light for the 45 you could barely tell the difference in factory loads.
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Old May 8, 2012, 12:57 PM   #13
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I look into about 50% of the cases to assure I can at least see powder in it.

I use a couple lee loaders and also never had a squib. I look into approximately 100% of cases. Slow down and check every function at each pull of the handle. Going fast I could do 300 an hour easily but looking at every station for primer, powder etc I can only do about 250. Add a light to your loader if you need to, in fact, pay the $6 shipping and I'll send you one if you PM me.
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Old May 8, 2012, 02:05 PM   #14
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I use a Dillion XL 650 with a power check die, and I still look into "approximately" 100% of cases to verify powder level. I even have a light mounted to the case feeder bar that shines into the case at the bullet seating station for this purpose.

Murphy's law dictates that the no-powder charges will be the cases that aren't checked.

Last edited by Gerry; May 8, 2012 at 03:30 PM.
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Old May 8, 2012, 04:02 PM   #15
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Quote:
I look into about 50% of the cases to assure I can at least see powder in it.
Like I said. Bad process.

That is going to get someone hurt, you, or the guy at the next firing point. You need to completely step back, stop reloading until you have the mindset that every round you make is important.
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Old May 8, 2012, 05:06 PM   #16
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I had a problem once with the Lee Progressive, I changed the charge disc in the powder measure to obtain a different powder charge and the disc had a rough spot on it causing it not to fully cycle every time. It was very intermittent and difficult to diagnose. I too looked in many but not all cases to make sure powder was dropping but it was intermittent enough I still missed it. I loaded up 200 rounds of 38 special and 3-4 no powder squibs in the first 50. Pulled the rest of the bullets and discovered several more. I sanded / polished the rough spot out of the plastic disc and it worked fine after that. I really can’t blame the machine, I got all the stuff used and somehow prior to my ownership of the equipment the disc was slightly damaged an I didn’t notice it until I had a problem. The machine works fine now but I have taken the tactic of only using it to resize and expand brass now. I prime with a handheld and finish ammo on a single stage. I use a handheld primer because I get more consistent (No high primers) result that way. It’s not as fast as a going fully progressive but it is fast enough for my needs and I think I get better ammo that way. To make a long story short I bet the disc in your powder measure is sticking. To find it I sat at the bench and processed brass (No powder or primer) and just stared at the disc while I pulled the lever and I caught it after a while.

Thanks
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Old May 8, 2012, 08:00 PM   #17
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Quote:
I believe they all had a full powder charge as I check before placing the bullet on the case. Any ideas what is going on? Bad primers, crimp or powder...
Visually check each round at the third (seating and crimping) station.
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Old May 8, 2012, 08:13 PM   #18
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I have never used a Pro 1000, but I do use a Classic Turret with the Pro Auto Disk. VERY, VERY consistent with HP38---BUT, I still look at every powder charge. Just place your seat where you can barely see the edge of the powder charge. If you can't see it, it is too light. If you see more than normal it is too heavy. (Don't know if this is possible with the Pro 1000) Still weigh about every 20th. round.
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Old May 8, 2012, 08:19 PM   #19
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Another question, how often are you checking your powder charges with a scale? Most manuals call for checking every 5th round when you start a batch, then maybe every 10 if you are getting consistent readings every time. I also use the Lee Pro Autodisk and the one time I slacked off from checking every 5th round was the time that my hopper decided to drift from "on" to "off" from the motion of the press. Luckily, I caught it after only about 20 rounds and set those aside to pull. I would suggest that you start weighing powder charges on a regular basis and checking to make sure that the screw under the powder hopper is tight enough to stop it from drifting closed.
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Old May 9, 2012, 07:00 AM   #20
dmt411
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GTone if all you can add to a thread is nananana booboo and no insight or help why bother with your comment, but you still get one point for trying.

MSD Mike, good point the press is used and the shell plate/powder measure are new, they appear to work properly and cycle each pull.

Joshf128, when starting a batch I weigh half of first 10 then about 1 out of 15, these never vary on the balance beam scale.

Thanks everyone, even you GT just hope you learn to have constructive input,

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Old May 9, 2012, 05:34 PM   #21
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What GTone said makes absolute sense regardless if you want to hear it or not. The flaw in your process was visually inspecting only ~50% of your cases for proper powder charge before seating your bullet, when it should have been exactly 100% of your loads.

In fact, if I thought I had missed visually checking even one case during a 500 round reloading session on my Dillon, I'd pull all 500 despite the fact that I have a power check system. This is why reloading is considered a task that requires full attention and concentration, without distractions of pets, children, wife, alcohol, or anything else that might interfere with ensuring that every single round produced is safe.

Your nonchalant attitude concerning the existence and quantity of your squibs was frankly a little disheartening when some of us have seen the consequences of what a squib load can do when it isn't noticed. And many of us have our children and wives shooting our reloads, or standing near us.

Your process has to change and as GTone said, if you can't accept that then you should step back and take a breather until your mindset changes.
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Old May 9, 2012, 07:20 PM   #22
MSD Mike
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Seems a little harsh. I know on my Lee progressive you can't see the powder charge at low charge levels in 38 Special you can't see the powder without removing the case and looking in it. That's why I have chosen to use it as a brass processor and finish on a single stage.

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Old May 9, 2012, 07:46 PM   #23
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I have to ask, why do you continue to load extreemly light loads ? quote

Thanks serf'rett, that is what I am looking to accomplish is a slightly slower round, maybe not as slow as you have described but same idea.

I loaded another 50 of the 45's last night (12.5% below starting load) and will take them to the range tonight for a test drive. The first batch loaded 12.5% light for the 45 you could barely tell the difference in factory loads.

If I read this correctly are starting your loads at 12.5% below the minimum load ?

If this is correct you are loading squibs or really close to squibs.

Are you loading with a powder that has no loading data for the type round round you are using, 45 colt, 45 ACP ? are you looking by mistake at loadings for a lead bullet instead of a FMJ. What reloading manual are you using ?

I am asking this not to embarass you or make fun of you, but just the opposite, to try to understand what it is you are doing and offer help and keep all your fingers attached to your hands!

I don't think GTone was trying to make you look bad, but he is correct in saying reloading is serious buisness and be treeted accordingly, checking your load data and procedures is the correct thing to do.

Last edited by Old 454; May 9, 2012 at 07:52 PM.
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Old May 9, 2012, 08:14 PM   #24
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A primer without any powder will easily lodge a bullet 1/2 inch into a barrel. Even an extremely low load of powder is usually enough extra boost to get it much further, if not completely out of the barrel to drop on the ground a few yards in front of you.

Most squibs that I've seen and heard about that matched the OP's description were the result of absolutely no powder, as in not even a single particle. The one I've seen was demonstrated by our IPSC instructor on purpose so that we'd know what it sounded if we went on to RO, and how it could be removed by a squib rod.
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Old May 9, 2012, 11:23 PM   #25
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I don't think GTone was trying to make you look bad, but he is correct in saying reloading is serious buisness and be treeted accordingly, checking your load data and procedures is the correct thing to do.
You are correct, I wasn't talking down, or being condescending. I am saying there is a serious issue if one comes up with a dozen squib loads out of 2k. Plain fact.
Reloading is serious business, we are talking about possible body part damage.
Anyone that doesn't see the danger of it needs to rethink.

Last edited by GTOne; May 10, 2012 at 01:55 AM.
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