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Old May 8, 2012, 10:12 AM   #26
Cheapshooter
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My opinion is that it still depends on the circumstances, and whether the sales/purchases are done with the objective of profit, in mind.
And if a gun grabbing BATF agent targets you, and a liberal gun grabbing prosecutor follows up on the case you and your $100 per hour lawyer can argue that point in front of some liberal judge with an anti gun biased jury listening. Maybe, maybe not. Just not worth pushing the envelope on "your opinion".
Each to his own opinion, and actually a mute point as far as I'm concerned.
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Old May 8, 2012, 10:56 PM   #27
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tobnpr
If I buy a gun a month, shoot it, have a little fun with it, and then sell it for what I paid for it, and buy something else- all on my C&R; and make ZERO profits on the sales, how am I engaged in it for "the principal objective of livelihood and profit"?? There's a huge variety of C&R weapons. If I chose to buy some, shoot them, keep what I liked and sell the rest at little or no profit, I cannot see how that would run afoul of the ATF regs as I've read them.
ATF doesn't care if you earned a profit or not.....that isn't a crime.

Repetitive buying and selling is what they consider as dealing in firearms.
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Old May 11, 2012, 08:33 AM   #28
Don P
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Thanks dogtowm tom for expressing what I failed to. Buying and selling is not what anyone would consider collecting now is it?
Definition of collector;
a person or thing that collects; specif,,a) a person who collects stamps, books,etc, as a hobby
I'll add collecting C&R firearms.
The FFL-03 states it is for "collecting" so there for buying and selling is NOT collecting is it?? I think not.
Just my opinion, collecting means buying and "keeping" buying and selling is dealing.
Used car dealer, gun shop, new car dealer, stores in general buy and sell hence dealers.
If you thing we are wrong by all means give it a whirl buying and selling C&R firearms. I truly would love to be there upon the ATF's visit when you explain why you purchased X number of C&R firearms and your bound book shows them going right back out the door.

Taken from post #3
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A collector’s license does not authorize the collector to engage in a business required to be licensed under the Act. Therefore, if the acquisitions and dispositions of curios and relics by a collector brings the collector within the definition of a manufacturer, importer, or dealer, he shall qualify as such. A dealer’s license must be obtained to engage in the business of dealing in any firearms, including curios or relics.
I believe that buying and selling 1 C&R a month would qualify you as a dealer
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Old May 23, 2012, 07:16 AM   #29
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actually, collecting doesn't mean that you never, never, ever sell ANYTHING. That's called "hoarding"

Collectors are always trying to improve their collections, replacing that "good" condition Radom pistol with an "excellent" condition one for example. I personally don't have the space or money to keep every gun I have ever bought.
I want the best examples of what I collect to stay in my collection. So selling a couple of average condition Mosins to raise funds to buy that nice Mosin sniper rifle does not mean that I am a dealer.
If I had a large and varied collection, that just might mean a gun or so a month.
And when you find a dealer that can survive on less than say, $100 a month, never seems to reduce any inventory, and only buys for himself, then you can call me a dealer

Saying that selling one gun a month automatically makes you a dealer, is like saying that anytime anyone shoots someone it's automatically 1st degree murder. No self defense, act of war, tragic accident...

Last edited by magnumPi; May 23, 2012 at 07:42 AM.
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Old May 23, 2012, 09:15 AM   #30
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Buying an extra gun and selling it at cost to your buddy once or twice over the years could hardly classify you as a "dealer", but is still selling outside the scope of your license.

Would you get caught, and if you did would you get in trouble? Do you feel lucky?
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Old May 23, 2012, 09:35 AM   #31
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I believe that buying and selling 1 C&R a month would qualify you as a dealer
I doubt it. Maybe if you did it for 36 mos in a row or something, but on the other hand, it was ONE GUN every 30 days. A big part of it is how you dispose of it and how much money you made on it. Another issue would be the type of gun. Its obvious unless you were dealing in Colt SAAs and making say $1000 to $2000 per gun, once per month, you could NOT be viewed as making a "livelihood" by selling one per month.

I get tired of reading how the ATF is God-like, or the men in black, or that they are superhuman. I have my C&R and I don't even consider such things as "I just sold 2, but I bought 5, oh my, what if they come to get me" They have bigger things to worry about than you paranoid collectors in this thread. As Jim K said, for flagrant moves, its only a matter of time. For everyone else, do what you do until you are told to stop. They'd have a tough time proving that I intended to profit when I bought guns with the money I got and I've kept a ton of what I bought.

IIRC I've sold approx 20% of my C&R purchases since I got the license less than 2 years ago. And no, I don't think I did anything wrong and yes I will continue to "improve my collection".
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Old May 23, 2012, 04:05 PM   #32
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They'd have a tough time proving that I intended to profit when I bought guns with the money I got and I've kept a ton of what I bought.
Again, "profit" isn't the issue. It's what ever they can consider dealing. Buying, and selling. If it is truly improving your collection there is no problem. If it is getting a good deal for your buddy, they can call it dealing. Do I think they are out there lurking around the corner looking for the C&R FFL that occasionally sells off some of his guns? No. Do I think that some day depending on the political climate they will be doing everything possible to harass gun owners? Darn right!!!
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Old May 23, 2012, 08:28 PM   #33
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Again, "profit" isn't the issue. It's what ever they can consider dealing. Buying, and selling. If it is truly improving your collection there is no problem.
Maybe you should actually read the regulations. "Profit" is something that separates the 01 from the 03 FFL.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curi...s.html#dealers

So basically, by the amount of profit, an ATF agent could make a strong argument that someone is attempting to make a "livelihood". Read below:

(Keep in mind that the definitions are vague, so that they can be used against anyone doing anything. If they had concrete numbers and defintions, everyone would skate around them.)


Q: Does a license as a collector of curio or relic firearms authorize the collector to engage in the business of dealing in curios or relics?

No. A collector’s license only enables the collector to transport, ship, receive, and acquire curios and relics in interstate or foreign commerce, and to make disposition of curios and relics in interstate or foreign commerce, to any other licensee, for the period stated on the license. A collector’s license does not authorize the collector to engage in a business required to be licensed under the Act. Therefore, if the acquisitions and dispositions of curios and relics by a collector brings the collector within the definition of a manufacturer, importer, or dealer, he shall qualify as such. A dealer’s license must be obtained to engage in the business of dealing in any firearms, including curios or relics.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a) and 923(a)(1), 27 CFR 478.41(c)(d)]

Q: What does “engaged in the business” mean?

The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.

[27 CFR 478.11]
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Old May 23, 2012, 09:02 PM   #34
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So in your mind buying C&R firearms with the intention of selling them to others at your cost doesn't violate the intent of the regulations? After all, that was the question in the original post.
The word "profit" then could be a technicality, or loophole in the regulations to allow 03 license holders to buy all the guns their friends want. Lots of loopholes have sent people to federal bed and breakfasts. I don't plan on taking the chance my self.
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Old May 23, 2012, 09:11 PM   #35
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So in your mind buying C&R firearms with the intention of selling them to others at your cost doesn't violate the intent of the regulations? After all, that was the question in the original post.
The word "profit" then could be a technicality, or loophole in the regulations to allow 03 license holders to buy all the guns their friends want. Lots of loopholes have sent people to federal bed and breakfasts. I don't plan on taking the chance my self.
I respect that opinion. I was simply saying its NOT ok to make a ton of money which your prior posts lead me to believe. Of course, I do think its NOT ok to buy for your friend which is basically straw purchasing using a C&R (in a way).
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Old May 24, 2012, 03:21 AM   #36
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I called them and there are some criteria that they are looking for
Length of ownership is one thing she specifically said “they don’t want to see stuff sold within a year without a reason she said if you buy something and you really don’t like it go ahead and sell it but don’t make a habit of it”
But it’s all a grey area each case is handled on its own
The license is designed to enhance your collection not to enable you to deal in firearms
Making a profit or not
If someone bought a bunch of m-44 k-98 or whatever 5-6 years ago and sells 6 of them making $300+ on each one for $2000 total profit and then uses the money to buy a luger or something else to enhance their collection not one red flag will be raised everything was done in the process of being a firearms collector
If you use your license to buy guns for your friends profit or not you are not engaging in the activity of collecting you are using your c&r like a dealer’s license
If caught at best you will get your peepee slapped at worst you could ruin it for the rest of us
I was really surprised as how friendly and helpful they were when I called
Best thing would be to call them and ask first
Because if you do anything wrong I wouldn’t want to be in your shoes
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Old May 24, 2012, 09:04 AM   #37
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Hey, ronz, thanks for calling them and helping to straighten this out. Nothing muddies up a thread like a bunch of speculative pontificating and third-person anecdotal fantasies.
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Old May 24, 2012, 09:21 AM   #38
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Call up your local ATF and talk to them about this.

I have.

If they decide you are using your Collector's FFL in an inappropriate fashion, it won't matter what you think, it will be gone.

And if you continue to sell firearms in a way that they decide is for business, well this guy is lucky he did not go to jail, but he lost 300 weapons and $38 K in cash. http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/129331478.html

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The offense carries a maximum penalty of five years in prison and a $250,000 fine
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Old May 24, 2012, 10:15 AM   #39
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Hey, ronz, thanks for calling them and helping to straighten this out. Nothing muddies up a thread like a bunch of speculative pontificating and third-person anecdotal fantasies.
For the record I called them before the thread even started
And I guess your right its stupid to ask the same people who will prosecute you if what you are doing is legal your way better off waiting so you can say
I didn’t know I couldn’t do that
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Old May 24, 2012, 10:18 AM   #40
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Hey, ronz, thanks for calling them and helping to straighten this out. Nothing muddies up a thread like a bunch of speculative pontificating and third-person anecdotal fantasies.
Nothing "speculative" or "third person" about what I said all along. Pretty much zactly as ronz reported. You can't use your C&R to buy guns for your friends.....Period!!!
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Old May 25, 2012, 08:25 AM   #41
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Don't take it personally - unless that's what you were doing, my post wasn't directed at you.
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Old May 27, 2012, 02:38 AM   #42
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I'm not a C&R licensee...yet. But I have been following this thread from the start and there is one thing I am REALLY dying to hear:

MarkDozier, you stepped on your own willie a while back and got called out on it. When were you going to tell all of these nice folks how it's done? I for one can't wait.


I should say right now that I have NO hard feelings whatsoever towards Mr. Dozier. It's just that I've watched this situation develop, and I want to see the rest of the story.

Nagants at ten paces anyone?
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Old May 27, 2012, 07:36 AM   #43
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But I don't think a half dozen, or even a dozen weapons a year wouldn't qualify as "making a livelihood" from it...


With absolute certainty the ATF will disagree with the above statement.
If you are selling a dozen guns a year and doing the buying on your FFL-03 they WILL consider you a dealer. Say hi to Bubba for me at the gray bar hotel
That is not correct Don. I sell two or three C&R's every month. I buy three or four C&R's every month. Most sales show a very small profit, a few show a lot.

I had over 150 C&R qualified fire arms when I obtained my C&R FFL so I may be in a unique situation. I've taken my bound book to the local ATF office and discussed buying and selling. Bottom line, as long as I'm not buying with the intent to sell, it's A-OK.

ETA: If you want to buy and sell a few guns each month then do not get a FFL. A bud of mine is a wheeler dealer in C&R's and ammo. ATF has talked to him more than once. He is fine as long as his sales meet legal requirements. He buys/sells 60-80 guns a year. He basically tells ATF this is his hobby, he does not make any money from it(key) and to screw off. So far, it's worked.

Last edited by madcratebuilder; May 27, 2012 at 07:43 AM.
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Old May 27, 2012, 02:17 PM   #44
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Yeah, well, there are those here that think differently, and we're not gonna change their minds...and nor are they going to change mine.

Those words "principal objective of livelihood and profit" are black and white...

If there's little or no profit, it's not a "business"...

But what the hell do I know of the definition of a "business" , with a B.S. in Commerce...
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Old May 30, 2012, 04:13 AM   #45
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You can sell to upgrade or improve your collection but cant sell as a business. Thats the "gray" area. When i renewed by C&R in 2009 one of the questions was how many did you sell or disposess in the 3 year period? Well I answered truthfully and the ATF never said a word or batted an eye.
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Old May 31, 2012, 01:28 AM   #46
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An interesting twist on this topic

Hi all

If I already possess an FFL Type 3 C&R license, is there any benefit in terms of a future application for other FFL license types?

Is there a more streamlined process, since you're already "in the system"?

I would like to buy for myself. I would also like to pave the road for an easier approval process later as I *hope* to transition from hobby to business at some point in the future. What I have right now is a desire to collect, and that is all. However, if that streamlining would be a perk I could gain by having the C&R in force when I apply for a different type, it would be worth it later.

I am also very curious about any of the the FFL licenses when operating from home. I am trying to understand what the zoning requirements are for my area, as that seems to be the least clear component of the process.

ZAG
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Old May 31, 2012, 04:46 AM   #47
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C&R is for collecting, not for test driving rifles. It's assumed you are involved enough in the research "curio and relic" portion of collecting that you won't have a need to release that frequently from your collection.

The intent of the law is far more important to consider than the verbosity. Intent.

No way in hell I would sell 12 rifles from a C&R collection in a year, or 5 years for that matter. In fact, I choose to avoid it altogether. If I imagine myself in an agent's shoes, I would find 12 sales per year highly suspicious, and I'm far from uptight. YMMV, just my opinion here.
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Old May 31, 2012, 10:00 AM   #48
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No way in hell I would sell 12 rifles from a C&R collection in a year, or 5 years for that matter. In fact, I choose to avoid it altogether. If I imagine myself in an agent's shoes, I would find 12 sales per year highly suspicious, and I'm far from uptight.
Oh would you? What if the C&R holder purchased 60 and sold 12? There is no "set number" for any of this.

This topic is far from cut and dry. There are too many variables here to deal with absolutes. The only thing that is for sure is that the ATF will do what they want regarding this stuff. Beyond our own interpetation of the rules / laws, it is theirs that is most important.
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Old May 31, 2012, 11:43 AM   #49
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Like I said, and I'll say it again, that's MY opinion. The most important thing remains: Intent.
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Old May 31, 2012, 03:06 PM   #50
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Slightly different topic, anyone have ATF's regs on buying Gifts with your C&R?

My lil Brother just Graduated High School, and I was thinking of buying him a Mosin.

Would I run into issues buying something I didn't intend to keep with my C&R?
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