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Old May 4, 2012, 11:03 AM   #1
aarondhgraham
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With a C&R license, can you resell guns that you buy?

It's just a point of curiosity to me.

As I understand it the C&R license is simply to aid in acquiring guns for your personal collection.

What if you buy a gun and then decide you don't want it,,,
Do you have to wait an amount of time before selling it to someone else?

Also, if you have a C&R license,,,
Can you do transfers for people who order from places like Buds Gun Shop web-store?

Just curious is all.

Aarond

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Old May 4, 2012, 11:16 AM   #2
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What if you buy a gun and then decide you don't want it,,,
Do you have to wait an amount of time before selling it to someone else?
You are allowed to sell firearms to "improve your collection" as it says in the rules.
So yes you can sell one in order to replace it with another. There is no mention of having to hold it for a certain length of time. Although several same day, or short time acquisition/disposition in your bound book could raise a red flag if the BATF ever looks at them.

Quote:
Can you do transfers for people who order from places like Buds Gun Shop web-store?
Absolutely not!!! It is NOT a dealer's license, and acting as a dealer is not allowed. Trying to "get by" with skirting the laws jeopardizes the availability of the C&R license for everybody who uses it legally!
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Old May 4, 2012, 05:26 PM   #3
tobnpr
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You are allowed to sell firearms to "improve your collection" as it says in the rules.
So yes you can sell one in order to replace it with another.
Please provide a link to a source at BATF that states this, as it is nothing close to my understanding.

You can sell without "improving your collection", or "replacing it with another" from the regs that I have read. You cannot be engaged "in the business" of buying/selling firearms. From the BATF website, like I said, if you have other information from their site, please enlighten me.

Does a license as a collector of curio or relic firearms authorize the collector to engage in the business of dealing in curios or relics?
No. A collector’s license only enables the collector to transport, ship, receive, and acquire curios and relics in interstate or foreign commerce, and to make disposition of curios and relics in interstate or foreign commerce, to any other licensee, for the period stated on the license. A collector’s license does not authorize the collector to engage in a business required to be licensed under the Act. Therefore, if the acquisitions and dispositions of curios and relics by a collector brings the collector within the definition of a manufacturer, importer, or dealer, he shall qualify as such. A dealer’s license must be obtained to engage in the business of dealing in any firearms, including curios or relics.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a) and 923(a)(1), 27 CFR 478.41(c)(d)]

Q: What does “engaged in the business” mean?
The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.

[27 CFR 478.11]
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Old May 4, 2012, 09:35 PM   #4
James K
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No, you don't have to replace a gun you sell, but if your book shows too many (no, I don't know how many) sales to NON-licensees, you better be ready to explain. Or if you order ten thousand rifles on your C&R license, and sell them all in a week to non-licensees with Arab names, you better get a good lawyer.

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Old May 4, 2012, 11:04 PM   #5
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Please provide a link to a source at BATF that states this, as it is nothing close to my understanding.
Sell one to replace it with another was probably not the right example.


[18 U.S.C. 922(a) and 923(a)(1), 27 CFR 478.41(c)(d)]

Q: What does “engaged in the business” mean?
The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.
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Old May 4, 2012, 11:18 PM   #6
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Quote:
As I understand it the C&R license is simply to aid in acquiring guns for your personal collection. What if you buy a gun and then decide you don't want it
Sell it or trade it. Don't make a habit of doing this because it might look suspicious.

Quote:
Also, if you have a C&R license,,,
Can you do transfers for people who order from places like Buds Gun Shop web-store? Just curious is all.
Absolutely not.
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Old May 5, 2012, 05:15 AM   #7
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Also, there's nothing wrong with buying several of the same qualifying gun/rifle for the purpose of keeping the most collectible and selling the others. Doing that too much could raise some red flags though.
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Old May 5, 2012, 07:41 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by noelf2
Also, there's nothing wrong with buying several of the same qualifying gun/rifle for the purpose of keeping the most collectible and selling the others. Doing that too much could raise some red flags though.
I recall reading about a ATF ruling that this is not a acceptable practice.

If you buy X amount of qualifying gun/rifles with the INTENT of keeping only one and selling the remaining, puts you in “engaged in the business”. ATF uses INTENT as they see fit and it's up to the C&R holder to prove otherwise.

I know guys that do this often and I kind of doubt that all these even go on the books. Bad ju ju. I would not want to explain this to the ATF during a audit.

I've sold off C&R's as I changed direction of my collection or found a better example. I finally have over 100 lines filled out in my book. Keep your entries up to date and you should not have any problems with a audit.

From what I've heard C&R audits are not very harsh when ATF finds discrepancies (the first time). You really have to do some blatant violations to be in serious trouble.
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Old May 6, 2012, 08:33 AM   #9
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You are allowed to sell firearms to "improve your collection"
That’s what they said to me when I called them before I got my c&r a couple of months ago
So it’s probably one of the things there looking for if someone sells off a lot of guns in a short period of time
if a long time c&r collector sells off 5-10 guns they have collected over a long period of time in order to buy a real expensive one its ok
but if someone would buy and then resell a lot of guns just to make enough money to buy an expensive gun it wouldn’t be ok because they were actively trying to make a profit from the sales
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Old May 6, 2012, 12:33 PM   #10
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Both excerpts quoted above say the same thing: "engaged in business" means "principal objective of livelihood and profit"

I wouldn't be overly concerned about it. You would need to be turning over a lot of guns- and making money from it- before you would fit into this category.

In this regard, it's no different than with non-C&R firearms. If you are somehow, able to buy weapons "on the cheap" with the intent of re-selling them for a profit, guess what...you're a "Dealer", and need the proper FFL.

Where that line is, I don't know, and I do think it would be interesting to find out if there is case history on this. But I don't think a half dozen, or even a dozen weapons a year wouldn't qualify as "making a livelihood" from it...

If anyone knows of specifics, please post it up for us.
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Old May 6, 2012, 03:55 PM   #11
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Just FYI, the anti-gun gang has long had the C&R license in its sights and they are just waiting for a case of flagrant abuse to launch a campaign to get Congress to eliminate it.

So I urge all C&R holders to play by the rules. The non-licensee YOU sell a gun to might be the one whose actions mean the end of the C&R license and even more gun restrictions. Arguing that C&R guns are not the choice of terrorists or drug gangs is pointless - a 6.5mm Carcano is a C&R and the use of one of those almost resulted in a national ban on all guns.

Jim
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Old May 6, 2012, 06:05 PM   #12
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Just FYI, the anti-gun gang has long had the C&R license in its sights and they are just waiting for a case of flagrant abuse to launch a campaign to get Congress to eliminate it.

So I urge all C&R holders to play by the rules. The non-licensee YOU sell a gun to might be the one whose actions mean the end of the C&R license and even more gun restrictions. Arguing that C&R guns are not the choice of terrorists or drug gangs is pointless - a 6.5mm Carcano is a C&R and the use of one of those almost resulted in a national ban on all guns.


Quote:
But I don't think a half dozen, or even a dozen weapons a year wouldn't qualify as "making a livelihood" from it..
.

Per YEAR? I think that might just be enough for them to take a real serious look at the C&R licensee!
If you wanna be your friends on the cheap gun source, get an 01 FFL and be done with it!
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Old May 6, 2012, 08:58 PM   #13
zxcvbob
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If you wanna be your friends on-the-cheap gun source, get an 01 FFL and be done with it!
I'm planning to do that when I retire. A "kitchen table" FFL with no inventory and just do $20 transfers plus register as a distributor for Davidson's, Bud's, etc. And I'll be able to use the USPS to receive and ship handguns for my personal collection (which I can't do with a 03 FFL)

Hopefully GCA'68 will have been totally repealed or declared unconstitutional by then and ruin my plans.
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Old May 7, 2012, 09:42 AM   #14
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I'm planning to do that when I retire. A "kitchen table" FFL with no inventory and just do $20 transfers plus register as a distributor for Davidson's, Bud's, etc. And I'll be able to use the USPS to receive and ship handguns for my personal collection (which I can't do with a 03 FFL)
Been thinking about the same thing. Have you looked into it yet? I have heard the BATF try real hard to make it as difficult as possible for someone to not have an actual storefront business.
Thought, as you, do transfers, and maybe have a few cheapies in stock for gun show tables.
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Old May 7, 2012, 12:10 PM   #15
zxcvbob
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It's hopefully 10 years down the road for me, so I haven't really looked into it yet. The biggest hurdle (currently) is not the BATF directly, but local zoning ordinances, business licenses, etc. BATF will not issue a license unless you can show that all your ducks are in a row with regards to city, county, and state ordinances -- and if they [the ducks] are OK, the feds are easy to deal with.

I heard this from a local gunsmith who just got his 01 FFL in a residential neighborhood. Haven't verified it myself yet but it passes the smell test.

A lot can happen in 10 years.
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Old May 7, 2012, 08:58 PM   #16
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Here's a related question I've had recently (not trying to hijack the thread or anything). Say I have my C&R ffl and I have friends who also collect but don't have a C&R FFL, is it illegal or a straw purchase, or 'acting as a dealer' if I typically buy (sight unseen, via the Internet) 2 or more examples of a gun to take advantage of volume pricing (but low volume...2 or 3, not 20 or 30) with the intention of selling the worse of the two guns to a friend for no profit? I'm not buying it specifically for them, I'm buying two guns for me with the intention of dumping the less desirable one at cost.
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Old May 7, 2012, 09:43 PM   #17
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hAkron, It's one of those things that some one, at some time could try to press. However as long as it isn't taken to the extreme it will probably never be challenged. A couple of dispositions during the 3 year term of a license won't raise a red flag. You are asked on your renewal form how many acquisitions/dispositions you have entered in the past three years.
Again, it all boils down to the fact that if you want to buy guns to sell to others it's best to get the dealers license and be done with it.
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Old May 7, 2012, 10:22 PM   #18
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Cheapshooter ....I have heard the BATF try real hard to make it as difficult as possible for someone to not have an actual storefront business...
On the contrary, ATF was extremely helpful every step of the way.

They could not care any less whether you are operating from your home or a storefront.
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Old May 7, 2012, 10:32 PM   #19
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hAkron .... Say I have my C&R ffl and I have friends who also collect but don't have a C&R FFL, is it illegal or a straw purchase, or 'acting as a dealer' if I typically buy (sight unseen, via the Internet) 2 or more examples of a gun to take advantage of volume pricing (but low volume...2 or 3, not 20 or 30) with the intention of selling the worse of the two guns to a friend for no profit? I'm not buying it specifically for them, I'm buying two guns for me with the intention of dumping the less desirable one at cost.
If you use your C&R to acquire firearms for others you violate Federal law. The 03FFL is for YOUR collection....not for enhancing your friends collection.

Those who use their C&R to take advantage of volume "discounts" are skating on thin ice. Buying a dozen, selling eleven and keeping one may be "collecting" in your mind but sure as heck looks like dealing to others.

As long as ATF doesn't check your books (or the books of the dealer who sold you those dozen guns) you'll likely never have a problem.

If you are caught your attorney fees will eclipse the few dollars you saved on that quantity discount.
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Old May 7, 2012, 10:39 PM   #20
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the language the ATF uses couldn't be any more vague but why push the envelope. momma always said just do the right thing and you dont have to worry about it.
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Old May 8, 2012, 01:05 AM   #21
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I am surprised by the namby pamby lack of knowledge and silly answers y'all are posting.
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Old May 8, 2012, 05:47 AM   #22
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I am surprised by the namby pamby lack of knowledge and silly answers y'all are posting.
OK. Let's hear the "real deal" from you.
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Old May 8, 2012, 07:14 AM   #23
Don P
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But I don't think a half dozen, or even a dozen weapons a year wouldn't qualify as "making a livelihood" from it...
With absolute certainty the ATF will disagree with the above statement.
If you are selling a dozen guns a year and doing the buying on your FFL-03 they WILL consider you a dealer. Say hi to Bubba for me at the gray bar hotel
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Old May 8, 2012, 08:13 AM   #24
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I am surprised by the namby pamby lack of knowledge and silly answers y'all are posting.
I'm surprised that this thread is as lengthy and repeated as it is.

"Don't use your 03FFL for dealing or purchasing for someone else. That is all."
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Old May 8, 2012, 08:41 AM   #25
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With absolute certainty the ATF will disagree with the above statement.
If you are selling a dozen guns a year and doing the buying on your FFL-03 they WILL consider you a dealer. Say hi to Bubba for me at the gray bar hotel
___
Facts to back this up?
Not saying you're incorrect, I'm asking for the information to back up the assertion. My opinion is that it still depends on the circumstances, and whether the sales/purchases are done with the objective of profit, in mind.

If I buy a gun a month, shoot it, have a little fun with it, and then sell it for what I paid for it, and buy something else- all on my C&R; and make ZERO profits on the sales, how am I engaged in it for "the principal objective of livelihood and profit"?? There's a huge variety of C&R weapons. If I chose to buy some, shoot them, keep what I liked and sell the rest at little or no profit, I cannot see how that would run afoul of the ATF regs as I've read them.
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