The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 21, 2012, 02:11 AM   #76
FrankenMauser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: 1B ID
Posts: 6,745
Quote:
See Lubbock SWAT 2001. We have some threads here and you can google it. 369 rounds fired, 3 people hit with 1 killed and 2 wounded after responding to a call about man who might be suicidal who was burning belongings from his house in the yard (apparently, most of his wife's stuff after they had fight).
A similar situation happened in Utah, last year.

A 'Narcotics Strike Force' was performing a drug raid. A shot was fired just as the entry team was to breech the door of the suspect's house. One of the entry team members went down. Everyone opened up on the house to suppress the suspect's fire.

5 additional officers were wounded by friendly fire. The officer that went down was named Jared Francom. He did not survive. He took a round to the back of the head, courtesy of another team member that couldn't control his trigger finger.

The suspect was found armed, hiding in the house, but never fired a shot. The police agencies involved, however, continued to villainize the suspect for weeks. Last I heard, the State was still trying to find a way to stick murder charges to the suspect for the officer's death, even though the suspect never fired a shot and all wounded parties were hit by friendly fire....
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53...olice.html.csp

The real fallout from this incident, though, is that Utah police agencies are using his death to push for more no-knock warrants... and they're winning. ...a subject of its own, but worth mentioning.
__________________
"Such is the strange way that man works -- first he virtually destroys a species and then does everything in his power to restore it."
FrankenMauser is offline  
Old May 21, 2012, 08:05 AM   #77
Lambdebois
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 2, 2009
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 123
Frankenmauser,

I just noticed that the link you provided says nothing about the officers/officers being hit by friendly fire. I don't doubt it... but would love to read the "other" side of the story if there is one somewhere....
Lambdebois is offline  
Old May 21, 2012, 09:41 AM   #78
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,398
Quote:
Frankenmauser,

I just noticed that the link you provided says nothing about the officers/officers being hit by friendly fire. I don't doubt it... but would love to read the "other" side of the story if there is one somewhere....
I haven't seen an official source that says this either, but fratricide does appear to be a possibility based on the information available, or lack of information. They do appear to be trying to saddle responsibility for the injuries and death on Stewart, whose house was raided, but haven't come out and said specifically that Stewart shot any of the 6 cops which is unusual, especially after all this time. Most of the accounts of Francom's death state that he was shot during the raid, not that Stewart shot him.

You would think that the doctors had recovered at least on bullet from the 6 officers that were shot and could match it to Stewart's gun, but after 4 months, not such claims are being made by the cops.

Here is a vid from one of the responders. It has graphic language, so not work or family friendly. The second link provides more information and validates the first link as being from the incident.
http://www.fugitive.com/2012/04/12/o...ght-on-camera/
http://fox13now.com/2012/05/19/repor...lved-shooting/

There seems to have been quite a few shots gapped over a long period of time.

As an aside, note the officer shot in the hip who fell down the stairs to the basement and then ran back upstairs. Obviously, the shot to the hip did not take him out of the battle or stop his mobility.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old May 21, 2012, 12:18 PM   #79
BGutzman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2009
Location: Frozen Tundra
Posts: 2,414
I’m sorry but if one officer shoots another officer and the BG fires no rounds and apparently wasn’t even near the door as they entered and that’s where this guy was shot I don’t see how you can charge him with murder.. Especially if the BG never fired a round.

Knock less warrants are just plain wrong... Get a bunch of people rushing in to someone’s house unannounced is a great way to get someone hurt or killed... I always try to treat officers with respect, and would try to help them in an emergency if it meant saving a life or preventing serious injury I would do what I could so long as it was apparent that the officer was in distress or would likely die if I didn’t intercede. I never want to be a police officer or attempt to be one but they are valuable servants of the community and deserving of our support.

I know many people are negative on police but the bottom line is they are there when you need them and they come in all types of weather, rain, snow or shine and no one calls you to come to a birthday party its always a negative situation..

They have my respect and gratitude even if I may disagree with the attitudes of one individual or another...

I just can imagine the situation where someone is startled awake as they raid a house (potentially even the wrong house) and the owner initiates self defense against a mass of unannounced intruders... It will be a sad day for everyone..
__________________
Molon Labe
BGutzman is offline  
Old May 21, 2012, 12:53 PM   #80
Willie Sutton
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2012
Posts: 1,066
Hmm... 84 rounds fired at one suspect. That's as many rounds as the ENTIRE German police force fired last year.

Best quote of the year so far... and I don't know if I should laugh or cry.



The NYPD does not have a dedicated patrol rifle, but there are units within 15 minutes response time with rifles, shotguns, tear gas, and a bunch of other neat stuff.

Perfect. Just like for the average citizen, when seconds count the police are just minutes away... even for other police.



The Lubbock fiasco only goes to show that firearms are indeed dangerous if they are held by the wrong hands.


<sigh>



Willie

.
Willie Sutton is offline  
Old May 21, 2012, 03:03 PM   #81
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,398
Quote:
Hmm... 84 rounds fired at one suspect. That's as many rounds as the ENTIRE German police force fired last year.
Quote:
Best quote of the year so far... and I don't know if I should laugh or cry.
Interesting. Did anybody check this? Supposedly, they fired 85 only with criminal activities, so the statement would be in error. They fired an additional 9000+ at animals. http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justi...-a-832037.html

Interesting stat, but am not sure what it indicates or how accurate it is. It was actually compiled by the Germans, but that is about as far as I got.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old May 22, 2012, 07:30 PM   #82
Axelwik
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 12, 2012
Location: Land of Enchantment
Posts: 371
Quote:
Interesting. Did anybody check this? Supposedly, they fired 85 only with criminal activities, so the statement would be in error. They fired an additional 9000+ at animals. http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justi...-a-832037.html
Not sure what animals have to do with this...

Germany has a population of around 80 million - about a quarter of the US population, but with a much higher population density.

  1. Have they learned how to get along better than we have?

  2. Are the cops there more likely to solve problems in a less violent way?


I think both are true. I lived in Germany for 12 years (ten of those years in the military). They certainly have conflicts, but don't seem to resort to violence as quickly as we do here.
Axelwik is offline  
Old May 22, 2012, 08:09 PM   #83
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,398
Quote:
Not sure what animals have to do with this...
Simple, you made the statement that 84 rounds was more than all of German police fired last year. It was wrong in 2 ways. First, it was wrong in that they fired 85 rounds during engagements with criminals and second it was wrong in that they fired over more than 9000 rounds during official duties last year.

While it is impressive that they used so little firepower with criminals, there is no reason rewrite or embellish the facts and state that the NY incident fired more than all of German police last year.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old May 25, 2012, 01:23 PM   #84
dwright1951
Member
 
Join Date: May 30, 2011
Location: alabama
Posts: 35
I've shot with lots of folks, several of them were in law enforcement, some were great shots lots weren't. I used to go to a dirt pit on my lunch hour with a sandwich and a pistol or 2 and spend the time shooting. A friend of mine asked me one time what was in my purse (gym bag with lunch and pistol & ammo) that I carried into work and out every time that I got in my truck, when I told him he asked if I was robbin banks on my lunch hour. After he found out he asked to join me, pretty soon I had a different shooting partner every day for lunch. We had a ball, next thing that I know the county sheriff (he and my dad were hunting partners) caught on to what I was doing and he asked around and wanted to know if he could send some of his guys & gals out to improve their skills (this was in the middle to late 70's before there as any formal training in my area). Lots of these folks had only shot to pass the really low qualification and then just carried a gun. Once they found out that they could be fun a lot of them got real good. The best seemed to be folks who grew up hunting, the best change was a woman who started out scared of guns but once she got over her fear she had more fun than any of us.
dwright1951 is offline  
Old May 25, 2012, 01:51 PM   #85
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,260
Most of the police here will have a Heckler & Koch MP5 or a Heckler & Koch G3s
in their car. Using their pistol would be a last resort.

Last edited by manta49; May 25, 2012 at 02:16 PM.
manta49 is offline  
Old May 28, 2012, 05:01 AM   #86
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,825
So, how many shots would have been just about right?
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old May 28, 2012, 05:26 AM   #87
gunloony
Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2012
Posts: 97
Quote:
So, how many shots would have been just about right?
Ideally, zero.
If the situation didn't allow that, one.

On the other hand, none of the participants died, so maybe 84 rounds was the right number.
gunloony is offline  
Old May 29, 2012, 10:29 AM   #88
publius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2005
Location: Mississippi/Texas
Posts: 2,448
Denizen, I agree partly with your assessment, more training. Until they decide to give more training I sure don't want them having a lighter trigger though.
__________________
"Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress, but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
publius is offline  
Old May 29, 2012, 10:54 AM   #89
Denezin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2010
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 209
well reason i say trigger pull is the nypd's basis on a heavy pull is they can rest their fingers on the trigger. thats unsafe handling if you dont plan on having to shoot someone. like tap rack and decide. you have a decision to make on the assessment do i shoot or not. lets say your resting your finger on even a heavy trigger. and you flich or twitch and you are able to pull it. you just shot someone who wasnt fighting or unarmed. best qoute ever from the book Unintended Consequences: "Sorry doesnt take it back".
Denezin is offline  
Old June 2, 2012, 02:10 PM   #90
FairWarning
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2008
Location: GA
Posts: 814
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9mm
o... I carry 50+ rounds of ammo, maybe I need another 30...
This might help if your opponent can't shoot either. But if he can, you'll be dead long before you can dispense 80 rounds.
__________________
Mauser Werke, Schmidt-Rubin, Remington, Colt, H&K, Weatherby, Browning, Ruger, Marlin, Mossberg, Saiga, S&W, Sig Sauer....a few friends of mine
FairWarning is offline  
Old June 5, 2012, 05:54 AM   #91
fasteddie565
Member
 
Join Date: June 3, 2012
Location: The Farm, but not THE Farm
Posts: 25
DNS,

You saved me a lot of typing.

Using their patrol vehicle for cover, the two officers, armed with G19s, fired a total of 84 rounds at this single suspect. Both officers reloaded twice! Range to the suspect was 21m. Exact locations of entry-wounds on the suspect are not known.

If he was shot in the extremities / in non-vital areas 14 times, I do not see how a rifle would have helped. I am not a cop and think as a security professional LEO's should carry long guns, the issue was with the marksmanship.

As someone said previously, you can never miss fast enough, or with too much gun.

Was there mention of drugs? PCP perhaps?
fasteddie565 is offline  
Old June 5, 2012, 05:15 PM   #92
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Again, it's easier to score good hits at distance with a rifle or carbine.

If all shots are unaimed, then the long gun will do more damage to extremities, so even there the long gun would have probably resulted in faster incapacitation.

Handguns are relatively puny, and harder to hit with at distance.
MLeake is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11350 seconds with 8 queries