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Old May 4, 2012, 08:30 AM   #26
Double Naught Spy
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Makes you think, are we the civilian, really ready for a armed confrontation?
I don't think being a civilian means one iota of anything in regard to being really ready and comparison against the cops doesn't either. Both groups have been to shown to have outstanding individuals that perform exceptionally well and both groups have been shown to have folks that are more of a threat to themselves, bystanders, and other possible victims more so than they are to the threat they are fighting.
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Old May 4, 2012, 09:34 AM   #27
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Range to target = 21 metres = 69 feet = 23 yards...G19 9mm...84 shots fired...14 hits.

My preference is 45 cal. Would want the S&W M22-4 45 ACP. 230gr fmj.

Rifle not an option for CCW duty, just my daily CC.

Tactics demand right tools for the job.

Your choice may differ.
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Old May 4, 2012, 10:38 AM   #28
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DNS,

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I don't think being a civilian means one iota of anything in regard to being really ready and comparison against the cops doesn't either. Both groups have been to shown to have outstanding individuals that perform exceptionally well and both groups have been shown to have folks that are more of a threat to themselves, bystanders, and other possible victims more so than they are to the threat they are fighting.
You bring up some good points. I guess what I have seen it is hard to measure and to predict which individual or group will do well, and which will not in an actual shooting. I have seen a few basic studies in years past but I dont remember anything really special out of them.

One item I have noticed several instructors mention, and it was a factor in a local shooting. I will give two examples below:

1. A more outspoken, generally larger officer, who is good at the non-lethal aspects of wrestling, and restraining suspects, generally do poorer then their oppisites.

2. An officer which are smaller, and generally more quiet, and less apt to use any force unless absolutely required, generally do better in a shooting situation.

As I said I cant cite a study on the above 2 examples, but it has been mentioned by several instructors.
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Old May 4, 2012, 10:54 AM   #29
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Tactics

With two officer I would think the following approact would be the ticket. Please someone educate me if I am ill informed or incorrect......

Two officers shooting from behind cover at one subject who is shooting at them (presumably also behind cover). In theory one officer could be responsible for laying suppressive cover fire and one officer could be responsible for waiting for better higher % shots.

Obviously this would have to be trained and ingrained in the folks who would be asked to do it however I could see it working.

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Old May 4, 2012, 01:44 PM   #30
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I doubt a .45auto would have made any difference for the officers except they would have run out of ammo about 20 rounds before the job was done. A classic example of where capacity matters ... maybe more than you think. When your out of ammo, it's lights out.
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Old May 4, 2012, 02:03 PM   #31
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The article was trying to sell rifles in police vehicles. In that encounter I'm thinking I'd rather have a 12 gauge.
I know that once upon a time, shotguns were normal equipment in patrol vehicles. Where'd they go?
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Old May 4, 2012, 02:30 PM   #32
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Suspect also fired at least one round at responding officers. That round struck their patrol vehicle, and caused no injury. Both officers got through the incident unhurt. Suspect was struck with fourteen police bullets, but did not die.
Emphasis mine

An arrest was made with no officers or additional citizens hurt. I'd call that a success.

Without further info, it's difficult to assess whether the police could have made the arrest with fewer rounds shot. Difficult also to say why the hits weren't fatal. Was the bad guy behind cover? were the wounds to his extremities?
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Old May 4, 2012, 02:52 PM   #33
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the 9mm carbine also disapeared from police cruisers, maybe that was because DEA switched - I don't know.

I think any long gun including a shotgun would have been easier to use in this scenario.
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Old May 4, 2012, 02:54 PM   #34
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Whether or not the suspect is "active and behind cover", you shouldn't be firing, unless you have a reasonable chance of hitting the suspect.

This isn't Afghanistan. You don't use "suppressing fire" on city streets.
And, if you're stupid enough to think a 'suppressing fire' tactic is useful, you better have some friendlies advancing on the suspect. Otherwise, it's just a dangerous waste of a precious, limited commodity: ammunition.

One of my favorite quotes, from a local cop:
"One bullet in the bad guy sure beats 6 in the crowd behind him."
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Old May 4, 2012, 03:00 PM   #35
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Gents, remember it comes down to...

PLACEMENT!
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Old May 4, 2012, 03:18 PM   #36
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^ yes

But it's a lot easier for me to place a shot COM when I have a scope or a 15" sight radius and the weapon is stabilized by holding a forestock, and it's stabilized againt my shoulder.
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Old May 4, 2012, 03:22 PM   #37
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Quote.

I know this is just one case, but to me the 9mm is not a proven performer.


The 9mm is the most used round buy police and military world wide. It was used by the british and Germans in WW2. It was used by the british SAS to good effect in terrorist and hostage situations. It is the most tried and tested hand gun ammunition ever produced.
And you think its not a proven performer.

The person could have being hit by the same number of rounds in the same place with .40 or .45 and and had the same result. Hit someone with 9mm .40 or .45 in a vital area they will go down hit them anywhere else and will or won't depending on the person.
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Old May 4, 2012, 04:24 PM   #38
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The 9mm is the most used round buy police and military world wide. It was used by the british and Germans in WW2. It was used by the british SAS to good effect in terrorist and hostage situations. It is the most tried and tested hand gun ammunition ever produced.
And you think its not a proven performer.

The person could have being hit by the same number of rounds in the same place with .40 or .45 and and had the same result. Hit someone with 9mm .40 or .45 in a vital area they will go down hit them anywhere else and will or won't depending on the person.
I agree 100%. I have a friend who was shot at a party in Boston as an unlucky bystander. 3 45 rounds in his upper body, one went through his armpit, through his midsection, and out the other side. One went through his lower abdomen. And the otherthrough his arm. After the shooting, he spent 1/2 hour getting his shiznit together, and then drove himself to the hospital. Was out of work for a month but today he is fine. One 9mm in the right spot would have had much different results. Heck, one 22 in the right spot would have laid him out. A 45 does not guarantee dead guy, no matter what the ninjas tell you. Nothing against 45, or any other caliber, they all can work, you need to be good or lucky enough to put the round where it counts.
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Old May 4, 2012, 05:39 PM   #39
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Good to hear your Boston friend survived 3 hits from a 45 and then drove himself to a hospital to get patched up. Impressive if not amazing.

I use the 45ACP cartridge not because it has a tendency to drop assailants quickly, not because it propels a large bullet, and not because it has a devastating reputation...

I shoot the 45 ACP (preferably thru a 4" S&W revolver barrel) because (for me) it is VERY ACCURATE and in a gunfight ACCURACY RULES.


PS The 9mm is an excellent cartridge, for some bizarre reason takes more effort (for me) to get accuracy.
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Old May 4, 2012, 06:14 PM   #40
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I wonder how Jim Cirillo would have done ?? He had shot it out with 17 bad guys mostly in his work in the NYPD Stake-out Squad. He took out all 17 ! 'He was certainly exceptional .
He was at an IPSC match and played it as he would have in real life .They laughed at him !! That shows how stupid most people are -playing at shooting instead of using it as serious training.
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Old May 4, 2012, 06:16 PM   #41
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well the scariest part is, this is a common representation of a governmental group that says citizens shouldnt be able to defend themselves in public with any useful means, like say a glock 19 with 9mm speer gold dots.
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Old May 4, 2012, 06:48 PM   #42
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Gents, remember it comes down to...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PLACEMENT!
Placement is nothing without trajectory and penetration.
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Old May 4, 2012, 08:14 PM   #43
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Forget about use enough gun the mantra should be carry enough ammo
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Old May 4, 2012, 08:36 PM   #44
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Forget about use enough gun the mantra should be carry enough ammo
All the ammo in the world wont make up for poor shooting skills and lack of critical thinking..
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Old May 4, 2012, 09:38 PM   #45
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Man, the NYPD sure use a lot of bullets:

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011...i-murder-doors
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Old May 4, 2012, 10:09 PM   #46
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First I thought the NYPD average overall in shootings was around 17% which is higher than many other large city police forces.

Second,Not having those 10# NYPD triggers might have helped, 21M is on the long side of where most people train for pistol shots but 9mm is still accurate at this distance. I can't help but think that with a browning hi power or even a DAO or DA/SA USP or P226 they could have been a little more accurate. That being said... A rifle MAY have helped, but poor shot placement with a rifle won't do much more damage than poor shot placement with a pistol. I can arm chair jockey this all night long but IMO there is no "one" thing, be it larger/different caliber pistols, different pistols , different weapons or better training that will "solve" incidents like this. I can personally say that especially at long distances I will shoot better with a standard glock trigger than with a modified extra heavy glock trigger.
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Old May 4, 2012, 10:45 PM   #47
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Regardless of caliber, rounds that have contacted the suspect, and rounds missed, if he is still moving and able to shoot back why not continue to shoot? At that point in time does anyone seriously care what round they are using? Sure, I think the hit percentage should be higher, but their job isn't SOLELY to shoot bad guys.
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Old May 5, 2012, 08:10 AM   #48
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A lot of guys on this forum carry revolvers and go into statistics about the average shooting incident uses 4 to 5 rounds ect. I think you are better having to much ammo than not enough. This incident just confirms this.
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Old May 5, 2012, 10:34 AM   #49
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I've read the posts and I see a lot of differing opinions. I would like to follow up on a couple if I may.

Someone mentioned .45's. but we all know that one well placed shot with a 9mm will do the job. I seriously doubt that any really well placed shots were made.

Another poster said that the 9mm was the right tool for the job. Reasoning that they would have run out of ammo sooner with .45's. These guys fired 84 rounds. And yet I say no mention that they ran out. So I can't be sure that more in this case is better. One well placed 9 or .45 would have been enough.

Then there is the point about a rifle. Now these officers were unable to take the time, or were unable to make one good head shot with two pistols. Why can I expect they would do better with a rifle? Are rifles easier to aim? Perhaps better penetration would have gone through cover.

My thinking is at some point they should have waited for back up. Swat (with rifles) if necessary. The suspect only fired one shot that we are aware of. And a hail of bullets didn't work. And it was just blind luck that others weren't injured.
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Old May 5, 2012, 11:14 AM   #50
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I wasnt there so its impossible for me to be totally critical here.. Still this sounds like poor markmanship and lack of stress training at its finest...

It sounds like a combination of possibilities.

Standard Glock.. not the finest trigger or sights in the world by any means....
Poor marksmanship
Poor critical thinking - spray and pray instead of thinking

Seems like they reacted and didnt have the experience to tell them to make fewer but better aimed shots. Certainly something may have well obstructed the view but seriously this is a horrible number of hits with a lot of bullets not on target...
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