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Old May 3, 2012, 05:20 PM   #1
g.willikers
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84 rounds fired at murderer, 14 hits and he's still alive:

Check out this story from John Farnam's web site and maybe think about your choice of home defense weapon.
And about your skills.
I'm going to the range a little more.

http://defense-training.com/quips/25Apr12.html
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Old May 3, 2012, 05:30 PM   #2
towboat-er
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Yep, a rifle sure would have came in handy
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Old May 3, 2012, 05:45 PM   #3
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A 16% hit rate. Not bad I suppose for the average cop .Some departments are more concerned with community relations than intensive training .Ten years ago a study of hit probability in the NYPD in actual shootouts it was 10% !! But in the revolver days it was 20% !! So rapid fire is still done rather than aimed fire .
BTW, some years back I took Farnam's course . It was fantastic and I was amazed at how much I didn't know . I only wish I could persuade more shooters the importance of really good training.
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Old May 3, 2012, 05:53 PM   #4
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Cant be a true story... everyone knows anyone shot by the ultimate 2 x 4 gun falls dead prior to the round even being fired.
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Old May 3, 2012, 06:26 PM   #5
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Crud, I use the same setup the NYPD does: Glock 19 with 124 gr. 9mm +p Speer Gold Dots. I'm suddenly feeling less adequate.
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Old May 3, 2012, 06:39 PM   #6
g.willikers
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I think it was Clint Smith, of Thunder Ranch, who put it well.
When he was asked what would he consider the best choice for effective fire power, he replied, "An Air Strike."
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Old May 3, 2012, 06:46 PM   #7
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I'm sure Jeff Cooper is looking down saying, "I tried to tell ya!"
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Old May 3, 2012, 06:50 PM   #8
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I got a hunting buddy that gives me crap about not using enough gun on hogs. Of course, he always used enough gun, or maybe not. Shooting 12ga slug at a deer is enough gun, right? Of course it is, except when you actually miss the target and shoot the feeder instead. How much is enough gun for a miss?

I am not sure that the officers using "enough gun" would have changed things dramatically. Misses are misses and poor shots are poor shots and the officers didn't exhibit much in the way of proper control. The G19 is a proven performer and certainly is "enough gun" when shots are properly landed. In looking at various articles on the story, it looks like shooting distances were between 10-15 feet and 70 feet depending on the various accounts.

Prior to trying to put a cap in the cops, the suspect had killed his sister and shot his mother.

No doubt rifles, shotguns, or pistol caliber carbines would have helped the officers get shots on target, but the officers did have enough gun to start with, but not enough marksmanship. The failure here isn't with the the gun.

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012...arlem-hospital
http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Pat...r-Suspect.aspx
http://gothamist.com/2012/04/25/cops...n_who_kill.php

From the OP's link...
Quote:
Had those two officers been armed with an AR, PTR, XCR, SIG/556, OBR, M1A, or some other flavor of 223, 7.62x39, 7.62x51, 6.8Spc, 300Blk, 30Carbine, et al military rifle, they could have easily ended this fight with the expenditure of only one round, certainly no more than three.
The same could be said for the G19s. The fight certainly could have been ended with 1-3 rounds.

Quote:
Even with plain-vanilla iron sights, much less precision optics, hitting this animated suspect at 21m would be amply easier than trying to do the same thing with a pistol, any pistol!
Absolutely true, but the issues isn't about enough gun. It is about application of enough gun. Use enough gun, properly.

I do like how this fight was considered a gun battle. The suspect did fire a single round a the cops. So when you have both sides shooting, it is a battle and not just a shooting.

Quote:
A 16% hit rate. Not bad I suppose for the average cop
You know, 16% really isn't all that good either. However, the hit rate might have been much less. The following article states that there were 14 entry and exit wounds. Potentially, Marray may have been hit by 7 through and throughs.
http://gothamist.com/2012/04/26/harlem_shooting_4.php
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Old May 3, 2012, 06:55 PM   #9
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Heres what new york police trainers should do. Stay with the same firearm but remove the stupid NY trigger job of a 8 or 12lb sa pull. Its simple keep your finger off the trigger until you need or have to fire. Step 2, more training. My dad was a police officer for 20 years and a rangemaster at his dept. he had enough pull to test and pick new guns and ammo for the dept. he trained constantly and was a great shot. being a good shot comes down to daily training. its not somethin you gain and then can sit on the shelf.
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Old May 3, 2012, 06:57 PM   #10
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NYPD

I am supprised NYPD doesnt carry. 40
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Old May 3, 2012, 07:18 PM   #11
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Every once n' awhile someone will post about the NYC trigger like it's some great thing.

The NYC trigger, IMO takes an already horrible Glock trigger and makes it worse.

I don't know where this guy was hit but I don't think getting hit in non-vital areas with a .40 is significantly worse than getting hit in non-vital areas with a 9mm.

And as far as the misses go - I think people are assuming the gunman just stood there and shot it out with the officers, he could have been moving, using cover - being a whack-a-mole - we don't know.
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Old May 3, 2012, 07:22 PM   #12
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I'm a skeptical as well. All those misses with a handgun some how translates to a 3 round fight with a rifle? In most urban environments a handgun is more practical. Just issuing a rifle is no guarantee they will train more than with the pistol.

What would be more likely as a little range time with the rifle and less with the pistol. Ending with proficiency in neither.
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Old May 3, 2012, 07:23 PM   #13
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Quote:
The G19 is a proven performer
No pistol is a death laser... Horrible accuracy rate... is it truly the poor skill of the officers shooting (no disrepect to the officers as officers) or is it a combination of poor skills and not so great a trigger and sights? Thats a lot of bullets to expend and not calm down and shoot with more accuracy at some point. My point being there is more to a gun than reliability sometime sights that are worth more than a nickle helps as does a reasonable trigger.

I dont know... It would be fun to see tested in some scientific way would a different brand of gun led to better accuracy in a stress condition.
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Old May 3, 2012, 07:31 PM   #14
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I gota say that's a pretty low percentage of hits, and 84 rounds fired total!? I suspect they did a good deal of pointing the gun around the car they used for cover and unloaded. I would rather slow down and take 10-20 shots and hit my target then take 84 wild shots and hope I hit. For one to protect innocent bystanders from getting hit from stray rounds, conserving ammo, and more quickly and efficiently eliminating the target. If your job entails you to carry a firearm, the least you can do is become proficient with it. I have a couple buddies who are cops and an uncle who is also an LEO and I shoot more often and better than the lot of them. It amazes me how some people go into the profession of law enforcement and do not practice and hone critical skills needed to safely do their job. I'm sure there are plenty out their who disagree with me, but the numbers don't lie.
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Old May 3, 2012, 07:40 PM   #15
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Bob and weave?
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Old May 3, 2012, 08:06 PM   #16
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Quote:
9mm is more economical to shoot. NW
Not always, Dobblenaught. Way to many stories of pistol fire not getting the job done even when shots were in "the zone". Too many factors involved--even with good ammo.

Good pistol courses, including Farnum's, emphasizes that you shouldn't be surpised if your hits don't solve the problem immediately. That's why we keep shooting until it's over.
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Old May 3, 2012, 09:04 PM   #17
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As a paramedic I have taken care of patients with gunshots of all flavors. I had a drive-by victim take a 9mm fmj in the arm pit and follow the rib around the chest and lodge under his pectoral muscle. No vital dmage despite being hit in the zone. I have also had dead patients from .22lr self inflicted to the head. I know this is just one case, but to me the 9mm is not a proven performer. I understand that some people are recoil sensitive and more rounds are better and so on but I will stick to a little more gun and better bullets. IMHO the smaller calibers sufer from under penetration due to the bullets they use. A 38 +p with 158gr SWC cuts holes instead of relying on blunt force. I am not saying the 38+p is better than a 9mm. I will stick to my .45acp.
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Old May 3, 2012, 09:10 PM   #18
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The linked article indicated the suspect was behind cover, and active, at 21 yards from the officers.

I have no trouble accepting that hit percentages would be lousy for typical shooters in those conditions, particularly if they thought they were taking fire.

I also suspect that in such a scenario, I would choose my AR with EOTech 552 over any handgun.
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Old May 3, 2012, 09:21 PM   #19
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It is easy for any of us to say that the reason the fight was not stopped earlier was due to a plethora of reasons. Well I have a news flash for those that think this rifle, or that shotgun are the end all. The human body is a lot tougher than you may think. I have as a medic seen men that were hit in the chest with hunting caliber bullets from deer rifles. They lived. Two actualy walked out of the house they were shot in. Yes they did drop in the yard. I personaly survived a 12 Ga to the chest from less than 6 feet. It did not knock me down, or even backwards. It spun me forward as a matter of fact. Due to more miracles than I care to go into I lived to learn a lesson.

Besides it unknown if the suspect was on drugs. That can make a huge difference.
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Old May 3, 2012, 09:27 PM   #20
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Don't they issue shotguns to the NYPD? That's what I woulda been reaching for in that scenario.

Anybody claiming that hitting a bad guy pointing a handgun at you from twenty yards away in the dark with adrenaline pumping is an easy shot is sadly mistaken. A 16% hit ratio is pretty good considering the baby-killer wouldn't go down after multiple bullets striking him. He was probably tweaked on coke, meth, or pcp. Cop's worst nightmare
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Old May 3, 2012, 09:55 PM   #21
Nnobby45
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Quote:
I am not saying the 38+p is better than a 9mm. I will stick to my .45acp.
To a large extent, bullet selection within the caliber is more important than caliber selection by itself.

Some 9mm ammo penetrates little, but expands quickly. Some expand not at all and over penetrate. Some do a good job of both. There are good bullets in the 9mm that make it superior to the .38.
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Old May 3, 2012, 10:23 PM   #22
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It amazes me how alike people are across the spectrum...

I honestly dont think 17% is absolutely terrible given the circumstances. I would challenge anyone here to do better when being fired upon(spare me the war stories). However... it could obviously be improved upon. Many untrained shooters act just like untrained fighters. Instead of picking their shots precisely, they just throw as many as they can as quick as they can and dont worry so much about aiming, also their form suffers due to the fear of getting hit. Fighting is a little different than gun fighting though!lol Id have to say youre not human if youre not worried about getting shot when being shot at. And about the target... people are animals. Some are way tougher than others. Some people act like humans in modern society, soma still have that animal instinct and drive. Ive seen deer run a long way after being shot with a centerfire rifle right in the bread basket. They dont care. They just want to survive. Some people have that same drive. They dont care about pain. All they care about is to continue living or going out in a blaze of glory.
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Old May 3, 2012, 10:49 PM   #23
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o... I carry 50+ rounds of ammo, maybe I need another 30...


Me thinks, the cops just pulled rapid fire and not aimed, but more of "cover/suppressive fire"


What people don't understand is, shooting at someone WHO IS SHOOTING BACK AT YOU!!!!!!!!!!!! is no OH, let me aim down my sights for 10 seconeds and get this centered.

No, you do your best to aim that barrel/sights at them.

I like to see someone understress of being struck by a bullet try to shoot a target/moving target that is SHOOTING @ THEM.

If someone shoots at me, the first thing I would do is go behind a object for cover.
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Old May 4, 2012, 01:20 AM   #24
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Quote:
No pistol is a death laser...
Sadly, neither are rifles.

Quote:
Not always, Dobblenaught. Way to many stories of pistol fire not getting the job done even when shots were in "the zone". Too many factors involved--even with good ammo.
Of course not always. Then again, of course not always for rifles either. In fact, I don't believe that there is currently any single man portable stand-off (projected force) weapon that always will stop the threat. The G19 is a proven performer and is widely used.

With that said, let's wait and see just how many rounds actually hit the suspect and just how many were in "the zone." We know at least 70 completely missed and so they were outside of "the zone." That doesn't give me a lot of hope in expecting the other 7-14 to be there. We also know that the suspect was shot in the legs and torso. http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/04/...ghts-shooting/

Leg hits are not going to be what most folks would consider to be "the zone."

Quote:
It amazes me how some people go into the profession of law enforcement and do not practice and hone critical skills needed to safely do their job.
If you think about it, most cops will never shoot their gun on the street and a tremendous number of them are not gun people. My pop managed 21 years with Dallas PD and never fired his gun on the street. One of the first cops to arrive at the North Hollywood bank robbery was a motorcycle cop Officer Richard Zielinski who was something like 3 or 4 weeks from retirement. He had never fired his gun in the line of duty on the street before that day and that day he fired all 60 something rounds he had on her person. He arrived and was in a side crossing fire position on the suspects. He would fire at the suspects when they were firing at the cops and people on the street. He had said that he knew when he was hitting them because when he did, the one hit would turn and shoot at him. Of course, his shots did little, if any, harm because of the suspect's body armor.

Many cops make their shooting quals and do their jobs and many do exceptional jobs of policing without firing a shot. Certainly, more cops lives are preserved and injuries reduced via situational awareness, people skills, and attitude. Street cops end up doing everything from neighbor disputes, domestic disputes, finding lost children, car chases, speeders, public interaction, counselors, and on and on and on. Strangely most cops are not absolute experts in all the areas in which their job forces them to work.

The really sad thing is that while we would all really like to know that our local cops shoot better, citizens don't seem willing to pay the extra $ in taxes to make them all highly trained shooters. If we pay for them to be highly trained shooters, are we also going to make them all hostage situation negotiators which would require a lot more training? How about making them professional grade family counselors?

Quote:
The linked article indicated the suspect was behind cover, and active, at 21 yards from the officers.
If the suspect was behind cover, you have to wonder how he got shot in the torso and in the lower located legs.

Quote:
I have no trouble accepting that hit percentages would be lousy for typical shooters in those conditions, particularly if they thought they were taking fire.
Quote:
I honestly dont think 17% is absolutely terrible given the circumstances. I would challenge anyone here to do better when being fired upon(spare me the war stories).
It certainly isn't the worst, but 17% isn't all that good compared to many other police departments with gunfight statistics. It is even low for NY.
http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2007/1...as-low-as.html

Quote:
However... it could obviously be improved upon. Many untrained shooters act just like untrained fighters. Instead of picking their shots precisely, they just throw as many as they can as quick as they can and dont worry so much about aiming,
Untrained shooters may act like untrained fighters in conflicts, but the NYPD cops have training in both those areas.

This article from tactfire.com discussed the hit rate of an unnamed police department. The hit rates were terrible, especially when it was about the same rate as the untrained shooters they had battled (11%). So why spend the time and money training officers to shoot if they shoot no better than the untrained bad guys? Given the results, the commander described the officer's gun training as being worthless.
http://www.tacfire.com/uncategorized...ing-for-police

So if officers in a gunfight have that much trouble hitting their target, then they are not likely to be able to hit a specific point on the target.

Of course, OP's gunfight apparently happened at a greater distance than most non-LEO gunfights. That should make hitting the target more difficult. However, at 70 feet, the the shots being made by officers were within the distance for which most officers have been trained and qualify.

So at the range, making use of cover, I would have thought that officers would shoot slower and better pick their shots. Also, the suspect was within the cops trainging rage and the officers outnumbered the suspect. and so they had the upper hand which should have afforded better shooting. Apparently, my thought was wrong.

So did y'all catch Farnum's closing comments? I know he is supposed to be a respected firearms and combatives instructor, but one comment was ludacris. Keep in mind that Farnum is really pushing the need for officers having rifles. Even so, I would not have expected him to make a blatantly wrong comment about pistols to make the rifle option sound better.

He stated...
Quote:
The fact is, this threat was out of pistol range!
Out of pistol range, really? I can't think of ever having any instructor suggest to me that threats that close are outside of the range of the pistol, especially ones firing centerfire ammo in calibers suitable for self defense such as 9mm. If 21mis outside of pistol range, then maybe I need to start carrying a pocket full of rocks with me to throw and hit threats at 21m and a bit further given. In all my years, I never would have thought that the range of my throwing arm was superior to the range of handguns.
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Old May 4, 2012, 06:54 AM   #25
Don P
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Just goes to show what stress, adrenalin flow will do to one trying to shoot a gun with accuracy. IIRC the hit percentage is about average for LE.
Makes you think, are we the civilian, really ready for a armed confrontation?
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