The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 3, 2012, 04:15 AM   #1
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 3,243
Lee Classic Cast Turret Vs Lyman T-Mag II Would you swap?

I ordered a whole stack of reloading gear. My budget meant Lee was the best bet, and I built up a kit order around the Lee Classic Cast Turret press that so many had recommended on here.

Today I called for an order update, and it seems that the suppliers have back-ordered my Lee press, much to the embarrassment of the shop.

In order to try and rectify the situation the shop offered me a Lyman T-Mag II press as a direct swap: ie no extra cost. They claim it is a superior press.

I would get all the gear far sooner, but I would not have a spare turret, like I had ordered for the Lee press, as they have no spare Lyman turrets in stock. If I wanted a spare turret, I'd have to order it and wait.

So.

Would you take the Lyman press now, but ordering a spare turret further down the line, or would you wait up to 4 weeks for the Lee press, with the planned spare turret?
__________________
You cannot wake someone who is pretending to sleep. Stop pretending. Wake up.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Pond, James Pond is online now  
Old May 3, 2012, 05:00 AM   #2
GTOne
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2011
Location: IL
Posts: 146
There isn't a center-post supported turret press made that is as good as the circumference-supported puck(turret, plate, whatever) in the Lee. And there are no auto-indexing turret presses other than the Lee presses.

I'm not a Lyman hater, I have Lyman scales, universal trimmer, and 1200 twin tumbler. Their presses don't have a huge fan base, however.


But I am not you, and I don't know if time is of the essence for you. It is basically a single stage press with die storage, marginally faster over a one-hole single stage.
GTOne is offline  
Old May 3, 2012, 07:37 AM   #3
jaguarxk120
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,000
If your looking at the auto indexing, then it's time to go back to square one and rethink what you want. Maybe save your money untill you can afford a Dilon or a Hornady press.

Lyman makes very good tooling and they have been making loading tools longer than anyone else.
jaguarxk120 is offline  
Old May 3, 2012, 08:01 AM   #4
Gerry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 382
Considering you're doing IPSC now, your ammo requirements are probably going to increase exponentially over the next months and years. I agree that it might be time to rethink your choices here and perhaps consider a full progressive press if you can afford it.

I started with a Lee Classic Turret, and still have it mounted beside my Dillon XL650. I use the Lee for other calibers I don't shoot so often, along with the bullet sizer dies since I cast my own bullets as well. But once I started IPSC (and my wife also started), pumping out 9mm on the Lee Classic became almost a full time job. I bought the Dillon with case feeder soon after, and it literally saved my life - well saved hours and hours of my life each week anyway
Gerry is offline  
Old May 3, 2012, 11:52 AM   #5
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 3,243
Thanks for the input.

Reloading will be strictly for .44 and .38 and possible future rifle rounds if I decide to get a long arm other than my intended .22.

The reason being is that it is in fact much cheaper to buy factory 9mm than reloading it: like 20% cheaper!! This is acually great news: the two rounds I shoot most (.22, 9mm) are cheaper to buy over the counter!!

So my IPSC needs will not depend on this, nor should I need anything more hardcore than a turret.

So really, it is still down to these two and, based on the posts so far, I will probably plumb for the Lee Classic
__________________
You cannot wake someone who is pretending to sleep. Stop pretending. Wake up.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Pond, James Pond is online now  
Old May 3, 2012, 12:40 PM   #6
m&p45acp10+1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 3,325
I would say take the Lyman. If you later decide to get the Lee press anyway then you can sell the Lyman for well more than you will pay for another Lee press. The thing is you just have to turn the turret by hand is all. It is not a super big deal. You can turn the turret head manualy as a semi progressive. Then when done turn it back to station 1 to start again.
__________________
No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.
m&p45acp10+1 is offline  
Old May 3, 2012, 01:08 PM   #7
TMD
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 9, 2011
Posts: 557
[QUOTE]The reason being is that it is in fact much cheaper to buy factory 9mm than reloading it: like 20% cheaper!! This is acually great news: the two rounds I shoot most (.22, 9mm) are cheaper to buy over the counter!!/QUOTE]

I think you need to shop around some. If you buy bullets and powder in bulk you can reload 9mm for close to half the price of cheap Winchester white box.
TMD is offline  
Old May 3, 2012, 01:45 PM   #8
snuffy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 20, 2001
Location: Oshkosh wi.
Posts: 2,797
You could NOT get me to trade a bunch of those Lyman presses for my lee classic turret press. Unless it was enough of them to sell as scrap metal to buy another lee press.

I HAD a Lyman spar-T press many years ago, for maybe 4-5 months. It was so weak it could barely size .357 mags. The ram was tiny, it was single action toggle link so little leverage, the "turret" sat on top of a "C" type casting with loads of flex when under pressure.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/169...2-turret-press

The only way to load straight ammo with the T-mag-2 is to crank the center bolt that holds the turret down tight, making it very difficult to turn the turret. Then you still have that flimsy "C" type open front design that WILL flex under sizing and seating pressure. Spent primers are SUPPOSED to fall into that plastic cup under/around the ram. They will,,,---sometimes. The lee disposes of the spent primer down the center of the ram, into a plastic tube that can be capped to hold them, or directed into a trash can

Lee screwed up by calling their press a turret. It IS a turret, just not like any of the other turrets. Auto index is the best feature, if you want to, you can speed things up as your consumption increases by using the auto index and safety prime auto primer feeder. Does the lyman even HAVE a primer feeder?

You most certainly CAN load 9mm for less than buying factory ammo. Copper plated bullets are much less than jacketed, and lead bullets a less that plated. My 9mm reloads are about $4 a box because I cast my own lead bullets from free lead.
__________________
The more people I meet, the more I love my dog

They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?
snuffy is offline  
Old May 3, 2012, 02:04 PM   #9
fjlee
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 10, 2007
Posts: 12
No question.........I'd wait for the Lee.....so I could be "long term happy".......with no "hindsight regrets".......

FjLee
fjlee is offline  
Old May 3, 2012, 03:27 PM   #10
Striker1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2004
Location: TX
Posts: 635
Go back and think about why you wanted the Lee in the first place. Will the Lyman meet the same requirements that convinced you to order the Lee?

If it will, seems like an easy decision.
Striker1 is offline  
Old May 3, 2012, 04:08 PM   #11
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 3,243
Quote:
I think you need to shop around some. If you buy bullets and powder in bulk you can reload 9mm for close to half the price of cheap Winchester white box.
Assuming I keep the brass from any factory loads I shoot, it still works out more to reload 9mm.

You have to take into account that where I live, 9mm is by far the most shot handgun calibre but handgun calibres are the least reloaded. Reloaders are hunters, typically.

So buying bullets from a poorly supplied reloading market, charging the cases with the only known powder brand I have seen, compared to buying from a very well catered market, means reloading is more expensive for 9s.

Some figures: if I buy 1000 rounds, cheapo 115gr Barnauls can be had for €0.14 a piece. Chunkier, heavier 124gr Fiocchi would be €0.18 a piece. Buying 500 Hornady 125gr FNFMJs from Midway Germany already costs €0.21 a piece. Locally, FMJs are €0.10. Between the primer and powder charge cost, it to more than the shop price.

's just the way it is!

As I said earlier, it suits me: I think I will enjoy reloading, but I don't want to spend all my time in the garage reloading 100s of 9mms. Were it cheaper to eload 9 and .22, I would be spending my life at the press in order to shoot what I shoot now.
For now, I'd rather reload a couple of hundred .44s or .38s now and again.

Quote:
Go back and think about why you wanted the Lee in the first place. Will the Lyman meet the same requirements that convinced you to order the Lee?
I initially chose the single stage Lee because of the price. I wanted the turret for the versatility and eventual speed once I had cut my teeth. I don't doubt that the Lyman would do that, and it is over twice the price of the Lee. But I know that more expensive does not always mean better.

At face value, the Lyman is a turret press that will take Lee dies. The Lee is a turret press that will take Lee dies. I can have the Lyman next week, but have to wait for the lee...

However, I know very little about reloading. Folks on here say the Lee is very good, some say the auto-indexing is better than the manual lever. Some say that the turret is better supported by the Lee. Yet others say the Lee will last longer.
Given my lack of knowledge, I'm inclined to trust them more.

I would like my reloading gear sooner than later, but I know I will probably not start trying to reload for another month and a half: I'm just too busy right now... so other than not have my new gear to stroke and look at, I am not in a rush
__________________
You cannot wake someone who is pretending to sleep. Stop pretending. Wake up.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

Last edited by Pond, James Pond; May 3, 2012 at 04:15 PM.
Pond, James Pond is online now  
Old May 3, 2012, 04:30 PM   #12
Gerry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 382
Quote:
The reason being is that it is in fact much cheaper to buy factory 9mm than reloading it: like 20% cheaper!!
Perhaps the economics of reloading supplies like powder and primers are different where you are compared to factory rounds. But also keep in mind that even the richest IPSC shooters reload, or at least have custom loads made for them. The game here is to make a load with the least felt recoil with the most accuracy in your gun that consistently and safely meets the power factor for your division. Commercial loads are about as opposite as you can get to meeting these goals. For that reason plus economics, I honestly don't know anyone in the sport past their first year shooting 9mm who doesn't reload.

My material cost for 9mm reloading includes $32 per 1,000 Winchester primers and $34 per pound of Vihtavuori N320 (the expensive stuff). The Vit N320 allows me to reload about 2,100 rounds, so we'll say $17 per thousand. I cast my bullets with free lead. This makes my rounds about 5 cents each, or $5.00 per hundred. I also shoot fully plated match bullets for winter indoor use that cost me $100 per 1,000. So that's .15 cents a round or $15 per 100. Here in Canada, the Winchester 9mm 100 white box is selling for $30 locally. Even with the match winter bullets, I'm saving half the money.

My wife and I do IPSC practice at least once per week (often twice per week in non-winter months), and we shoot about 300 to 500 rounds each per outing. Very conservatively, we average a minimum of 4000 9mm rounds shot per month between the two of us. That would cost us at least $1,200 + 13% tax per month in commercial ammo if I wasn't reloading. My reloads on the other hand cost me about $200 per month. I couldn't afford for us to be in this sport without reloading. And I couldn't afford the time to reload without a progressive press.
Gerry is offline  
Old May 3, 2012, 05:13 PM   #13
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 3,243
Quote:
My material cost for 9mm reloading includes $32 per 1,000 Winchester primers and $34 per pound of Vihtavuori N320 (the expensive stuff). The Vit N320 allows me to reload about 2,100 rounds, so we'll say $17 per thousand. I cast my bullets with free lead.
VihtaVuori is the brand they stock around here. It costs €124 per Kilo for the N3** range. That means about €50 per pound!! Can you believe the place of origin is a couple of 100km North of the border?!

Cast bullets are not an option whilst I shoot a Glock: polygonal rifling + lead bullets= hideous accuracy.
__________________
You cannot wake someone who is pretending to sleep. Stop pretending. Wake up.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Pond, James Pond is online now  
Old May 3, 2012, 06:00 PM   #14
wncchester
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2002
Posts: 2,832
"Lee Classic Cast Turret Vs Lyman T-Mag II Would you swap?"

I'd swap my old Lyman Turret (or any other) for the Lee Classic Turret in a minute. As mentioned above, other turret presses are basically funny looking single stages with die storage. IMHO.
wncchester is offline  
Old May 3, 2012, 07:40 PM   #15
GTOne
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2011
Location: IL
Posts: 146
Quote:
I would like my reloading gear sooner than later, but I know I will probably not start trying to reload for another month and a half: I'm just too busy right now... so other than not have my new gear to stroke and look at, I am not in a rush
There is your answer. Wait for the Lee.

If the Lyman was a better press we'd all be clamoring on this discussion saying take the more expensive press. (Everyone likes to see others get good value for their money.)

This is one of those cases where there isn't a comparable item for twice the price.
GTOne is offline  
Old May 3, 2012, 07:43 PM   #16
dickttx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2011
Location: Fort Worth
Posts: 500
I'd swap my old Lyman Turret (or any other) for the Lee Classic Turret in a minute. As mentioned above, other turret presses are basically funny looking single stages with die storage. IMHO.

I believe you nailed it wncchester.

And I am not knocking the brand.
__________________
Education teaches you the rules, experience teaches you the exceptions (Plagiarized from Claude Clay)
dickttx is offline  
Old May 3, 2012, 07:43 PM   #17
Gerry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 382
Quote:
That means about €50 per pound!!
Ouch! And I thought we Canadians were getting ripped off on reloading components. Funny that they can transport VihtaVuori Powder all the way from Finland to Canada and charge us way less for it than you pay. And it makes me wonder how they ship it, in a steel shipping container? It would be like a giant bomb if it ever went off. Talk about hazmat fees.

As far as your press goes, I agree with others here that you should hold out for the Lee Classic Turret if you aren't going progressive. I like mine for low volume production of other calibers. Plus it's so easy and quick to change calibers. If I had to regularly change calibers on my Dillon to something that also required changing primer size, I'd be spending far more time doing the changeover than reloading.
Gerry is offline  
Old May 4, 2012, 12:34 AM   #18
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 3,243
Quote:
Funny that they can transport VihtaVuori Powder all the way from Finland to Canada and charge us way less for it than you pay.
It's just market size and buying power, I think.

Overheads for hunting shops must be quite high, but the fact that shooters can only buy powder from licenced stockists within the country, on production of their licence means its a captive market.

So I can't shop around outside the country...
__________________
You cannot wake someone who is pretending to sleep. Stop pretending. Wake up.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Pond, James Pond is online now  
Old May 4, 2012, 12:44 AM   #19
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 3,243
Thanks for all the suggestions.

It seems I will be doing what my gut told me when they first offered: hang on for the Lee.

Hats off to the shop though: their profit on this sale would have taken a hit simply to keep me as satisfied as possible, although my guess is that the trade price is not quite as different to the Lee's.
__________________
You cannot wake someone who is pretending to sleep. Stop pretending. Wake up.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Pond, James Pond is online now  
Old May 4, 2012, 09:47 AM   #20
MADISON
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 1, 2000
Location: Roanoke, Virginia
Posts: 2,678
LEE or LYMAN T-Mag press?

My wife and I have 9 T-Mags we use and no LEE presses.
MADISON is offline  
Old May 4, 2012, 11:37 AM   #21
bad375
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 2009
Posts: 3
Wait for the Lee, I love mine
bad375 is offline  
Old May 4, 2012, 06:19 PM   #22
dacaur
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 2010
Posts: 733
It never made sense to me that MFG's will sell an "O" frame type press and tout the advantage of the )-frame design, and then that same MFG will turn around and make a C type press, add some extra die storage spots, call them turret presses, and expect people to think they are great and pay more for them....

Think about it, If the lyman T-mag were just a single stage press of the same open "C" type design, would anyone buy it even at half the price? NO WAY!!

The only current "C" style press I know of is made by lee, and only costs like $25....
dacaur is offline  
Old May 4, 2012, 07:03 PM   #23
wncchester
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2002
Posts: 2,832
"My wife and I have 9 T-Mags we use and no LEE presses. "

Meaning?
wncchester is offline  
Old May 4, 2012, 08:20 PM   #24
serf 'rett
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 25, 2009
Location: Stuttgart
Posts: 1,389
Interesting thread, but I was hoping to see someone lay out hard data of the type obtained with a dial indicator. Anybody made measurements of the upward displacement of Lee turret vs Lyman T-Mag and the repeatability (will the displacement be the same.)

I've been looking at these two presses at the store and my general impression has been the Lee has more "slop" than the Lyman.
__________________
A lack of planning on your part does not necessarily constitute an emergency on my part.
serf 'rett is offline  
Old May 4, 2012, 08:39 PM   #25
Lost Sheep
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2009
Location: Anchorage Alaska
Posts: 3,060
Quote:
Originally Posted by serf 'rett
Interesting thread, but I was hoping to see someone lay out hard data of the type obtained with a dial indicator. Anybody made measurements of the upward displacement of Lee turret vs Lyman T-Mag and the repeatability (will the displacement be the same.)

I've been looking at these two presses at the store and my general impression has been the Lee has more "slop" than the Lyman.
I read that measurement on another forum (for the Lee). If I can find it again I will post the result. Someone else will have to post the Lyman figure.

However, to a certain extent, the figures are not comparable. The Lyman turret, when it lifts, tilts, as it is constrained at the center and rear of the turret disk.

The Lee turret lifts the front edge (tilting) at first, but then lifts both the front and rear very soon thereafter, as the Lee turret disk is constrained around the periphery. Thus, the Lee will maintain (in theory) alignment of the die with the ram.

In practice, I think the difference is not going to be detectable in group size by any but the finest-performing firearms.

Lost Sheep
Lost Sheep is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13392 seconds with 9 queries