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Old April 29, 2012, 08:02 PM   #1
Vermonter
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Hostage Situation

Today during a range trip I decided to setup a hostage situation in which I would have to shoot the BG while the hostage target was in front of the BG. Mrs. Vermonter was with me on this trip so it was not hard to visualize her as the hostage. While I was at it I did some jumping jacks to get the heart rate up.

When I got the heart rate up I looked at her for a wile and began to visualize the hostage target as her. I had ten rounds in the Glock drew and fired ten times. All ten rounds went into the head of the BG target and none touched the hostage.

This was almost a religious experience. I was in the right frame of mind and it felt real. I didn't post this to brag but rather pose a question.

What are you guys doing to make your training more realistic.

Regards, Vermonter
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Old April 29, 2012, 09:30 PM   #2
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what is keeping the bag guy from shooting at the goodguy when he has a living shield in front of him?
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Old April 29, 2012, 09:43 PM   #3
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And the bad guy would probably be moving and having the hostage moving too. You were shooting at a static target.
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Old April 29, 2012, 09:54 PM   #4
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Moving

I am thinking of adding a pully system to add movement.
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Old April 29, 2012, 10:06 PM   #5
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I've run sniper schools for LE. One scenarios or training exercises is to cut a window out of a piece of ply wood. set it off at different distances.

Inside the window, tie two balloons of different colors on stings to the window, one good guy, on bandit. Shoot the bandit balloon while the balloons are blowing around in the wind.

Want to add stress, put a picture of you daughter on the good guy balloon.

We did it with rifle and pistols.
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Old April 29, 2012, 10:18 PM   #6
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Ballon

Perfect movement with no string. I am going to try it tomorrow.
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Old April 30, 2012, 07:47 AM   #7
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Actually, having the BG pointing his gun toward the shooter is BETTER since distance is safety. Highly unlikely he could miss the hostage but much more likely to miss(or not make a fatal hit) another 10-20' away.
The transition between the two is the best opportunity for a shot if that is possible. His focus is broken, he's having to shift from hostage to shooter, and the muzzle maybe in a neutral zone. He also may extend his head more to get a better view of the other target.
In this case, always try to get an angle position rather than a initial frontal approach.
Don't engage the perp in conversation, keep your focus on your aiming point.
Hopefully, you have a single action option on your handgun as now is the time to use it.
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Old April 30, 2012, 08:08 AM   #8
kraigwy
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Quote:
Don't engage the perp in conversation, keep your focus on your aiming point.
That is totally contrary to what is taught. You want the bandit talking. If talking he's not thinking about pulling the trigger.

In shooting talking is like breathing, you can't do it. You subconsciously stop to pull the trigger.

The preferred method is getting the bandit to ask questions, then he's waiting for an answer not a shot.

If you are going to make the shot, you ask a question, and pull the trigger as he answers.

Of course it's hard to get paper targets or balloons to talk.
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Old April 30, 2012, 08:15 AM   #9
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First thing is the decision: I will not in any circumstances, if at all possible, allow a member of my family to be taken as a hostage.

With that in mind, you look for ways to WHACK the bg.

One is to keep him and the hostage moving, . . . by moving yourself. During the moving, there is a 2 out of 3 chance that the bg or the hostage will trip, stumble, fall, whatever, . . . giving YOU the momentary advantage.

Always move to the bg's shooting hand, . . . if he is right handed, . . . move to his right, . . . this pulls him from the hostage, . . . and it is harder for him to transition from hostage to you.

I have never used the window & baloons thing, . . . but I think I can see it becoming a part of our shooting.

May God bless,
Dwight
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Old April 30, 2012, 08:47 AM   #10
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Wow. Learning a lot on this one. All I have ever done for this is an overlapping pie plate drill. Having to shoot the 'sliver' or 'moon' of the bad guy. I will have to try it with balloons. Thank you.
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Old April 30, 2012, 08:50 AM   #11
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As to ballons"

Make sure you have enough string to allow the balloons to wobble around in the wind or you are defeating your purpose.
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Old April 30, 2012, 09:00 AM   #12
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Quote:
I've run sniper schools for LE.
Are they still training to visualize a golfball between the earlobes on head shots to sever the brainstem for non-reflex shots?
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Old April 30, 2012, 10:52 AM   #13
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to the OP, what distance was your target? really doesnt matter but a 5 ft would be alot easier than a 15 yd shot. And people like Kraig could teach us so much on here, he's been there and done it. Not just someone who pops stuff out of his mind
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Old April 30, 2012, 12:12 PM   #14
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Here's one of my usual versions of this scenario:
One baddie and two no shoots, all pictures of people, rather than plain cardboard.
The bad guy is well hidden behind the hostages, with just the center of his face and upper head visible.
From 7 to 10 yards, start with gun holstered and hands up, just to lull the nasty fellow into thinking he has the advantage.
Draw and move to one side and engage as quickly as possible, with one or two shots.
Since our local ranges don't allow "no funny business", I have to do this kind of stuff at home, with blowback airguns.
But, they work quite well in a pinch.
The two (or even more) balloons sounds like a good idea to add to the repertoire.
A fan blowing on them should do the trick.
Thanks for sharing that one.
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Old April 30, 2012, 07:19 PM   #15
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Distance

10 yards. Exactly. I didnt measure prior but i measured when I had finished shooting. I can see the talking thing making sense.
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Old April 30, 2012, 10:01 PM   #16
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Quote:
I've run sniper schools for LE. One scenarios or training exercises is to cut a window out of a piece of ply wood. set it off at different distances.

Inside the window, tie two balloons of different colors on stings to the window, one good guy, on bandit. Shoot the bandit balloon while the balloons are blowing around in the wind.

Want to add stress, put a picture of you daughter on the good guy balloon.

We did it with rifle and pistols.
Was a member of my law enforcement agency's SWAT team for several years during my LEO career and we went through a lot of training on Hostage taking situations .
Kraigwy is dead on in his posts here, All are good tactics and advise.
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Last edited by GM2; May 1, 2012 at 02:52 AM.
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Old April 30, 2012, 10:32 PM   #17
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Crossing target

One of the guys at the local IDPA club came up with a cool moving target platform. Basically he took a target frame (H-bottom metal type with wood uprights) and strapped it to a large skateboard. He puts it on a ramp, where it is held in place by a block. The block is connected to a cord.

The ramp, skateboard and target are placed behind a barrier. When the timer sounds, the shooter first has to pull the cord, then draw and engage.

The skateboard with target rolls out from behind the barrier; the shooter tries to double tap the target before it rolls behind the next barrier.

It's harder than it sounds. We weren't going for head shots, either, and didn't set up a hostage in front of the target. That could be done, but the barriers would probably have to be farther apart for most of us to have a chance.
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Old April 30, 2012, 10:50 PM   #18
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I know if is not relevant to normal hostage incidents, but when I was tasked with special weapons security we had standing orders to shoot the BG and if the hostage saved if possible. But no quarter given to save the hostage.
In other words, they were expendable to protect the special weapons
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Old April 30, 2012, 11:35 PM   #19
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Quote:
I know if is not relevant to normal hostage incidents, but when I was tasked with special weapons security we had standing orders to shoot the BG and if the hostage saved if possible. But no quarter given to save the hostage.
In other words, they were expendable to protect the special weapons

If I'm ever taken hostage.................stay home.
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Old April 30, 2012, 11:44 PM   #20
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indoor range shooting, CQB shooting, weak hand...

At this time, I shoot mostly at indoor/rental type shooting ranges in my metro area.
For practice, I like to shoot a few strings at extreme or contact range. I put the paper target on the lane approx 1-2' in front of me. That keeps the reflex & conditioning sharp to able to handle threats at arm's length/CQB distance.

I also shoot a few magazines or rounds weak hand to be ready for a "wounded" or injury event where you must return fire in a lethal force event.

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Old May 1, 2012, 03:43 AM   #21
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Quote:
Are they still training to visualize a golfball between the earlobes on head shots to sever the brainstem for non-reflex shots?
I am trained to use two classifications of shots. The first is the "surgical shot"; the second is center of mass of the exposed target.

The surgical shot's objective is flaccid relaxation; the instant shut down of the body so that a trigger cannot be pulled, a knife cannot be used, etc. And yes, there is a definite target area.
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Old May 1, 2012, 08:35 AM   #22
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Just to clarify with kraigwy. Your addtion to my comment is correct for a trained individual. My comment was aimed at the average shooter and intended to prevent that person from being engaged and distracted by the same tactic that you suggested going the other way.
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Old May 1, 2012, 11:36 AM   #23
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Relevant Tactics

Mobuck,
You make a great point here. I am not you nor am I kraigway. If your classification is either "trained individual" or "untrained individual" I for sure am in the untrained section. With that said I still beleive I could make the talking thing work out. I practiced it dry firing. Boy did my dog look at me weird while I was talking to a wall .

My reasoning behind this type of training is simple. If god forbid someone was in my home and had a loved one hostage I would feel the need to act rather than back out.

I want to posess the physical ability to make that shot should the need present itself.

With that said can anyone coment on the decision making process that should be a part of this conversation? In other words what indicators should I look for in a BG who had someone hostage. Should I comply or not?

My current attitude towards this is simply that if someone has entered our home and is threatining to do harm to a family member there is no negociation and no alternitive.

Thoughts?
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Old May 1, 2012, 12:03 PM   #24
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You want to convince the guy that you want to comply to his wishes (no means am I saying to comply).

Ask what he wants, ask how you can comply with his wishes. If the bandit thinks you are complying it may tend to relax him a bit.

I'm old school..........NEVER GIVE UP YOUR GUN.

I have these targets in my shop and house just for dry firing. Dry firing with a laser sights give you instant feed back.

BUT: Remember the four basic safety rules. When laying out your dry fire targets, take into account your back stop. Think about what you'll hit if you screw up and don't unload before dry firing.

As I said, I have targets in my house and in my shop. If I screw up, behind my targets is a hill. I just have to patch a 38 cal hole in my wall. Actually the target in my house is on my granddaughter's bedroom door. (Still a safe background if I screw up noting gets hurt but for patching little holes.)

I also have a window cut in my shop wall that over looks my pistol range so I can shoot in bad weather or test loads without having to go outside.

I often hang the hostage target in the window so I can practice inside my shop.

Here is the targets I use, you should be able to down load and print them out.

http://photos.imageevent.com/kraigwy...0Target_1_.pdf

Like I mentioned earlier, to add stress superimpose a picture of your daughter or granddaughter on the good guy portion of the target. It will make you think.
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Old May 1, 2012, 01:49 PM   #25
Vermonter
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Kraig

I hear you on the Never Give Up Your gun thing. I figure that if a person just wanted $ or things of value they wouldn't bother witha hostage of any sort. I could start with informing the BG that if they are looking for material items they will get no resistance from me.

Frankly I wouldn't be lying in this situation. If they are looking for material things they can all be replaced. I couldn't replace a loved one. We are a small household just she and I and a Dog. I would consider the dog to be a loved one too but I doubt there are many examples of Pooch hostages.

Any suggestions on reading material that might help me further here?

With Kind Regards, Vermonter
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