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Old May 1, 2012, 05:04 PM   #26
Chris_B
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You'll like this then Jim

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Old May 1, 2012, 05:54 PM   #27
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I enlisted in the Army in the Summer of 1967, there were plenty of people who had trained on the M-1, yes, M-1 Thumb WAS a real thing.
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Old May 1, 2012, 07:33 PM   #28
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Nobody has suggested it's not a real thing
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Old May 1, 2012, 08:44 PM   #29
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And now we have the myth that the Garand was never referred to as the Garand by anyone in the military...that myth has been busted many times over, with documentation from true Garand experts refuting the "couch Ninja" experts. Saw a guy get his butt handed to him on another forum when he tried to say that the military never referred to it as the Garand.
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Old May 1, 2012, 09:32 PM   #30
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Hi, Amsdorf,

I am sure some self-styled experts can claim that the M1 was called the Garand by everyone. Not so. Now in early years, even folks like Julian Hatcher called it that (and he was certainly an expert), partly to distinguish it from the Johnson. But today if I hear someone call the rifle a "Garand" I pretty well know that HE is a "mall Ninja" whose experience with the rifle is based on gunzine articles written by folks not much older.

If you want to hand me my butt and claim I am ignorant about the M1 rifle, have fun. And of course, you can also call it the "Garry", same as the folks who use silly terms like "Winnie", "Remmie", "Springer" and "Smitty". Ugh!

And just to incite further ire, the carbine was never called the M1 (that term being used for the rifle); it was always called the carbine (car' bean); it would be called the M1 carbine or M2 carbine only if there was some need to distinguish between the two.

Chris B. - Just looking at that picture gives me the willies!!

Jim
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Old May 1, 2012, 10:18 PM   #31
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I started my service with an M-1 in the mid-60's and IMO, most M1 thumbs that I'd seen were awarded while proudly doing the "manual of arms", not while loading an en-bloc.

James K - I'm with you. It was always just an M-1 to us. I never even knew it was a Garand until many years later. Of course, the M-1/M-2 Carbine was just called either a Carbine or POS. Today, in all honestly, I do think much more highly of the Carbine than I did back then.
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Old May 2, 2012, 12:00 AM   #32
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if the clip is a little weak?

can you please explain that?
M1 clips are spring tempered. I'm assuming the poster meant if the clip itself has lost some of its spring tempering, and thus had a weaker grip on the rounds.
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Old May 2, 2012, 12:04 AM   #33
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Old May 2, 2012, 10:58 AM   #34
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M1 clips are spring tempered. I'm assuming the poster meant if the clip itself has lost some of its spring tempering, and thus had a weaker grip on the rounds
I understood the words when he posted them; I never finished engineering school but I took some notes I'm asking him to explain his standpoint

I ask that because I have never heard of, read about, or seen reference to a weak clip spraying rounds out, reducing the clip to an empty shell, thus dropping the clip to the bottom of the mag, letting the bolt slam onto the rifleman's hand- the bottom of the stack of bullets is retained by the follower, the top of the stack of bullets is reatined by the thumb, the sides are retained by the clip and the rifle's magazine.

I ain't seeing it
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Old May 2, 2012, 11:48 AM   #35
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The point re. the name "Garand" is that it is a myth that it was not used until well after the rifle was taken out of service. Further, if you are seriously suggesting that Hatcher only uses it as opposed to the Johnson, then I recommend you go back and read his book and, more importantly, the various Ordinance department documents which clearly refer to the M1 as a Garand.

Here is a thread on another forum that provides proof positive:
http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=35549

Let's put this myth to rest, shall we?

Or, on the other hand, keep arguing about this one ad naseum.

That's fun too!


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Old May 2, 2012, 04:08 PM   #36
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I ask that because I have never heard of, read about, or seen reference to a weak clip spraying rounds out, reducing the clip to an empty shell, thus dropping the clip to the bottom of the mag, letting the bolt slam onto the rifleman's hand- the bottom of the stack of bullets is retained by the follower, the top of the stack of bullets is reatined by the thumb, the sides are retained by the clip and the rifle's magazine.
That's not how I interpreted his statement. I was assuming that he meant (as I stated) that some of the spring temper had weakened, thus easing the grip on the cartridges contained within the clip, and letting the bolt chamber the first round with little or no effort when the loaded clip was inserted.

Although unlikely, that could theoretically catch the unwary thumb between the bolt and the receiver. ( I suppose.)
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Old May 2, 2012, 04:14 PM   #37
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Thumb usually came from the gun while doing the manual of arms. And it was usually a one time thing. I never got it even once but our drill team members would, esp a 'recruit' in his first few days.

It might also happen to recruits while on the rifle range trying to load a 2 round clip for rapid fire. Anyone who had shot much didnt have a problem.

Ready on the right.......
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Old May 2, 2012, 04:54 PM   #38
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I gave myself a MILD M1 thumb once, and once ONLY...I did have the op-rod held back, but it slipped. This was all preceded by the words, "Now, never ever do THIS..." passing my lips.

I wonder how many empty chamber flags have been snipped in half over the years!
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Old May 2, 2012, 05:02 PM   #39
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Like kraigwy, I've never suffered M1 Thumb inflicted by a Garand, but I have managed to do it with an M14. It hurt.

We're special little snowflakes, I guess.
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Old May 2, 2012, 05:10 PM   #40
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Gyvel, that's another one I never heard of, and respectfully, these days the clips should be weaker than ever but...this isn't happening
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Old May 3, 2012, 04:36 AM   #41
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Gyvel, that's another one I never heard of, and respectfully, these days the clips should be weaker than ever but...this isn't happening
You're probably right; I was just using that as a hypothetical. I've been (thus far) fortunate enough to escape the M1 thumb. When I was in college in the early 60s, we used M1s for drill in ROTC, but I already knew about the "M1 thumb" from my father, who was in the Battle of the Bulge during WWII.

By the time I was on active duty, the swing was on to the M16. (Although we qualified with M1 Carbines at my first U.S. duty station after basic training.)
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Old May 3, 2012, 12:52 PM   #42
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First, on "weak" clips. A "weak" clip is not going to allow ammunition to spray all over the place (where to these ideas come from??). A weak clip will allow the rifle to close up automatically without the operator tapping the op rod handle. Weak clips showed up in training, where clips were repeatedly reloaded from boxed ammo, and in target shooting where competitors deliberately weakened clips to gain a second or so advantage by not having to hit the op rod. But in combat, ammo was fresh from sealed cans, packed in clips, in bandoliers; there were no spare clips for loading and no need to re-use clips and it was very rarely done.

Hi, Amsdorf,

No, your ancient history documents date to before WWII, when the rifle was something new and was, as you correctly say, referred to as the Garand rather than the M1. I have seen those documents and also have copies of the American Rifleman from the 1930's in which the rifle is trashed, while the Johnson is praised. Ultimately, the shooters of that time considered that nothing could surpass the M1903 and that any semi-automatic was an inaccurate, unreliable bullet sprayer that could never be successfully used in combat.

But no FM, no TM, no MWO throughout WWII and after called the rifle by any name other than "M1" (or M1C, M1D). And I would venture to say that 99.99% of the soldiers who used it never heard of John Garand. I served 1955 to 1957 and I never heard any instructor, officer, NCO or anyone else call the rifle other than an M1.

Sorry, but the "myth" is that the rifle was called the "Garand" by the soldiers. You have taken a few informal documents from the earliest days and claimed they are absolute proof that the troops always called the M1 rifle by its inventor's name. That is simply not the case.

I have no idea how long you served in the military or in what branch of service, or if you were issued an M1 rifle, but if you called it a Garand, your fellow service members would have wondered what you were talking about.

Jim
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Old May 3, 2012, 12:53 PM   #43
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I'm not denying that the rifle was called the M1. Indeed, it was, but those who claim it was never referred to as a Garand are simply mistaken.

Head on over to other Garand forums and you can argue this until the cows come home.

: )
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Old May 3, 2012, 01:11 PM   #44
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First, on "weak" clips. A "weak" clip is not going to allow ammunition to spray all over the place (where to these ideas come from??). A weak clip will allow the rifle to close up automatically without the operator tapping the op rod handle.
That is what I was talking about. As to M1 thumb loading a full clip, when that bolt rides forward without bein told, you are right the round keeps your thumb out of the chamber, but the bolt head still has room to catch the thumb between it and the top of the reciever, and I can tell you it does remove flesh.
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Old May 3, 2012, 05:22 PM   #45
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The round doesn't keep the thumb out of the way, the thumb pushing down on the top round keeps it from moving; it can't move forward and let the bolt close until the thumb is removed.

Amsdorf, I note you did not answer the question about your own service or age and how you have such expert knowledge of what was done in those years.

I am not going to argue with you any more; you can have your own ideas and your own "proofs". But if you ever actually get to see one of those rifles, you might read what it says on it. It doesn't say "GARAND", it says "M1".

JIm
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Old May 3, 2012, 05:56 PM   #46
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First, on "weak" clips. A "weak" clip is not going to allow ammunition to spray all over the place (where to these ideas come from??). A weak clip will allow the rifle to close up automatically without the operator tapping the op rod handle.
ChrisB^^This is what I assumed the poster was referring to when he mentioned a "weak clip."

As another poster observed, it can and will result in a thumb injury.
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Old May 3, 2012, 06:54 PM   #47
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JimK, you are free to hold your opinion. I'm simply trying to tell you what the facts are. The assertion that "nobody" called it a Garand is simply not true. Yes, it was known as the M1 and that was how it was referred to by nearly everyone, but the military had also referred to it as a Garand.

As for if I ever get to see one....

Well, I've got eight of them in my gun safe right now, and they are very nice to look at.

Even more fun to shoot.
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Old May 3, 2012, 07:33 PM   #48
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where to these ideas come from??
From trying to read your mind. But like I said and illustrated, I can't see my description happening.

Can somebody get a finger or thumb where it's not supposed to be? Sure.

But you're telling me that by design, the M1 rifle isn't supposed to strip the first round without a bump from the heel of my right hand. Okey dokey, fine. I read it, I just don't have to believe it. I do believe it's fairly rare to have that happen consistently, but I do not believe that the rifle is malfunctioning when it happens. It sounds to me like we are now splitting hairs about a rifle functioning properly or improperly leading to M1 thumb on loading. And my opinion is: on a malfunction, bets are off

Sorry if anyone finds that mean or whatnot. Maybe this isn't my best day but I'm a man that really tries to say what he means to say, and I see no other way to say that- to me, a rifle is broken if it's not working as intended

But Jim for what it's worth, that picture scares me too I'm pleased to say it was hard to get my rifle to do it for the photo

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Old May 3, 2012, 07:45 PM   #49
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Gee..my dad served in combat in Europe during WWII...he always called it Garand. He was in before the war and saw the introduction of the M1.
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Old May 3, 2012, 07:51 PM   #50
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Don't feel bad, the next generation of kiddoes will refer to the M16 as the "Stoner" at some point in our future...

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