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Old April 26, 2012, 07:07 PM   #1
Sponge14
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LE Demo letter?

I am just starting to learn about NFA and Class 3 weapons and the laws around them... What is meant by Law Enforcement demo units? What are the requirements to purchase these guns? Is this something a civilian can do?
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Old April 26, 2012, 07:18 PM   #2
Brian Pfleuger
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If I have my facts straight, a LE Demo letter is in regards to a Post-1986 full-auto weapon. Only military and LE can own such weapons and a letter of intent/request for evaluation must be submitted to the dealer before the firearm can be transfered. I guess the intent is to keep people from becoming dealers and buying post-86 guns to use for themselves.... they can't order the guns without an LE request.

No, it's not something a civilian can do.
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Old April 26, 2012, 07:28 PM   #3
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That's kind of what I thought too, I was thinking, what was stopping me from becoming a dealer? I really wish they would repeal this ridiculous law...
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Old April 26, 2012, 10:24 PM   #4
David Hineline
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What is stopping you from becomming a dealer? I would guess you did not fill out the paperwork set up a business.

Goto BATFE website and download the NFA Handbook, it will provide info.
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Old April 26, 2012, 10:56 PM   #5
Fishing_Cabin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sponge14
I am just starting to learn about NFA and Class 3 weapons and the laws around them... What is meant by Law Enforcement demo units? What are the requirements to purchase these guns? Is this something a civilian can do? ....

That's kind of what I thought too, I was thinking, what was stopping me from becoming a dealer? I really wish they would repeal this ridiculous law...
In order to obtain a LE demo, you need to prove a reason as far as I know, beyond being a dealer first. The letter stating that a LE agency wants to test/evaluate this firearm is simple enough.

I wish we could go back to pre-86 myself, but it isnt going to happen soon.

As far as becoming a dealer, go get your FFL, then get your SOT, its simple and straight forward. You can do it from your home if your local authority does not prohibit a home based retail business.
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Old April 26, 2012, 11:06 PM   #6
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A friend of mine got his FFL and he also teaches a CC class. So he lets his students transfer weapons through him and his "business" is on 6 acres of land where he teaches pistol classes. He doesn't get hassled. Not sure if this helps at all.
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Old April 27, 2012, 12:46 PM   #7
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Quote:
In order to obtain a LE demo, you need to prove a reason as far as I know, beyond being a dealer first. The letter stating that a LE agency wants to test/evaluate this firearm is simple enough.

I wish we could go back to pre-86 myself, but it isnt going to happen soon.

As far as becoming a dealer, go get your FFL, then get your SOT, its simple and straight forward. You can do it from your home if your local authority does not prohibit a home based retail business.
So if I get the chief of police of an agency to say that they want to demo a rifle that I purchase, I can purchase the rifle and keep it forever?

There's nothing stopping me from getting my FFL, other than the fact that I don't need it for anything other than the possibility of purchasing a demo rifle (other than maybe doing some transfers here and there...)
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Old April 27, 2012, 01:49 PM   #8
Willie Lowman
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I can purchase the rifle and keep it forever?
No. Till you stop paying each year to keep your FFL.
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Old April 27, 2012, 02:26 PM   #9
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Quote:
Quote:
I can purchase the rifle and keep it forever?
No. Till you stop paying each year to keep your FFL.
The FFL renewal is every three years, but the Special Occupational Tax is each year.
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Old April 27, 2012, 11:27 PM   #10
Fishing_Cabin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sponge14
So if I get the chief of police of an agency to say that they want to demo a rifle that I purchase, I can purchase the rifle and keep it forever?

There's nothing stopping me from getting my FFL, other than the fact that I don't need it for anything other than the possibility of purchasing a demo rifle (other than maybe doing some transfers here and there...)
Beyond getting an FFL, you must be doing business, meaning doing transfers or selling firearms to have a FFL.

If you are obtaining an FFL just to aquire firearms, it is doubtful if you will get your FFL, and also doubtful if you will keep said FFL. Even less though when dealing with SOT firearms.

If you want to sell or transfer firearms as a business to make a few bucks or more, thats what an FFL is for. You can purchase a firearm with your FFL for yourself, and transfer it to yourself. I would advise you to be careful though if you are mainly going to get an FFL just for your own purchases.

Last edited by Fishing_Cabin; April 28, 2012 at 07:20 AM.
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Old April 29, 2012, 01:48 AM   #11
David Hineline
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The smart money buys transferable machineguns, they increase in value.

The stupid money gets addicted to full auto fire and buys post sample machineguns which have no value other than the fun of shooting.
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Old April 29, 2012, 07:27 PM   #12
dogtown tom
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Quote:
Fishing_Cabin Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sponge14
So if I get the chief of police of an agency to say that they want to demo a rifle that I purchase, I can purchase the rifle and keep it forever?

There's nothing stopping me from getting my FFL, other than the fact that I don't need it for anything other than the possibility of purchasing a demo rifle (other than maybe doing some transfers here and there...)
Beyond getting an FFL, you must be doing business, meaning doing transfers or selling firearms to have a FFL.

If you are obtaining an FFL just to aquire firearms, it is doubtful if you will get your FFL, and also doubtful if you will keep said FFL. Even less though when dealing with SOT firearms.

If you want to sell or transfer firearms as a business to make a few bucks or more, thats what an FFL is for. You can purchase a firearm with your FFL for yourself, and transfer it to yourself. I would advise you to be careful though if you are mainly going to get an FFL just for your own purchases.
Don't forget the wrath that will come down when ATF finds out the only NFA transactions you have done with your SOT are to yourself.......its called tax evasion.
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Old April 29, 2012, 10:42 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Don't forget the wrath that will come down when ATF finds out the only NFA transactions you have done with your SOT are to yourself.......its called tax evasion.
Thanks, I forgot to include that. That is a real and very possible issue a person may face.
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Old May 1, 2012, 05:31 PM   #14
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Don't forget the wrath that will come down when ATF finds out the only NFA transactions you have done with your SOT are to yourself.......its called tax evasion.
How is this tax evasion? Is it because I would not have to pay the $200 stamp?

It's becoming clear that LE demo units are not the best way to get my hands on the rifles I can only dream of....
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Old May 1, 2012, 06:16 PM   #15
Fishing_Cabin
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How is this tax evasion? Is it because I would not have to pay the $200 stamp?
It could be understood as such, if an issue comes up. These are to be used for demostration use for a dealer to show a LE agency. Its not a way to by-pass the high prices of transferable firearms for a non-dealer.

First, any machinegun made/imported after May 19, 1986 can be transfered to any Special Operations Tax (SOT) payer if they have LE letter stating that any agency would like to see/demo the firearm. The firearm may only be retained as long as the FFL continues to pay the SOT ($500 each year if I remember properly, plus the FFL). If the FFL holder drops the SOT, he/she must transfer to another dealer paying SOT, a LE agency, or legally destroy the firearm.

Quote:
It's becoming clear that LE demo units are not the best way to get my hands on the rifles I can only dream of....
Say, you pick up a transferable m-16 for $12,000, vs trying to get by with a LE Demo. The last m-16 I saw locally was $12,000 a couple of years ago.

If you buy the $12,000 transferable M-16 you can probably sell if for what you paid, or probably for more in 15 years.

If you buy a LE Demo M-16, for say, $1,500. then pay $500 sot each year, and a round up to $100 every three years for your FFL (its actually $90 but rounded up for easy figures). You would have $7500 for your SOT, $500 for your FFL, and $1500 for the rifle itself. Since other dealers have samples, I doubt they want yours unless its cheap or free when you do sell it. So you have at this time 15 years later, $8000 in fee's paid to the government, plus the original price of $1500 for the m-16, say around $9500 in it, and you could probably not sell for much, if at all. Of course this is not counting any possibly legal issues, nor have I included the cost for the local/state business license/fee's.

I guess it depends on how you view the math

Last edited by Fishing_Cabin; May 1, 2012 at 06:40 PM.
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Old May 1, 2012, 07:23 PM   #16
Willie Lowman
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The M16 is a good example but what if someone was dead set on getting a FA G36? There are no transferable FA G36. What about a MAG-58? A postie MAG is about $10,000 and the last time I saw a transferable one it was $75,000

Just sayin...
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Old May 1, 2012, 07:34 PM   #17
Fishing_Cabin
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The M16 is a good example but what if someone was dead set on getting a FA G36? There are no transferable FA G36. What about a MAG-58? A postie MAG is about $10,000 and the last time I saw a transferable one it was $75,000

Just sayin...
We can post varying gun prices, but the intent of the OP was for him to obtain them for his own use by way of the LE demo exception. I just picked a M-16 for an example.

There may be plenty of examples of the price differential, but when you add in the possibility of a felony conviction, and up to $250,000 (individual) fine, or $500,000 (for a corp) I think you will still find the price a good bit high for trying to go around what is legally allowed to be transfered to a non-dealer, vs becomeing a dealer only to purchse a certain firearm.

Quote:
CHAPTER 15. PENALTIES AND SANCTIONS
Section 15.1 NFA.
15.1.1 Criminal. The acts prohibited by the NFA and prosecutable as Federal offenses are listed in 26
U.S.C. 5861(a) through (l). As provided by 26 U.S.C. 5871, any person who commits an offense shall,
upon conviction, be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 10 years or fined. Although the fine
specified in the statute is an amount not exceeding $10,000, an amendment to Federal law provides for a fine of not more than $250,000 in the case of an individual or $500,000 in the case of an organization.224

15.1.2 Forfeiture. Any firearm involved in any violation of the NFA is subject to seizure and
forfeiture.225
Of course I could be totally wrong and the ATF may be willing to forgive an indiscretion more so then a Pastor, but I would not care to take a chance.

Last edited by Fishing_Cabin; May 1, 2012 at 07:42 PM.
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